[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

About the Extirpates in the main: I would only run them in the main if you think that you're going to have considerable problems against control and you want to have stronger games against them. Considering that you didn't mention any control, you don't really want Extirpate for Ichorid, and you ought to have a strong enough threshold match without them, I'd consider not playing them in the main, or at all. Personally, I'd take those two slots and play 2x Relics in the main, because it neuters grave-based strategies, makes Crucible of Worlds significantly weaker, if not useless, in the control match (in regards to Landstill), and give you a sliver of hope against Ichorid G1, while allowing you to play more graveyard hate in the sideboard. I would suggest Yixlid Jailer or Crypts if you're doing it exclusively for Ichorid, or more Relics, or another Needle and something else, most likely more grave-hate. I would play a sideboard like this, were I to put 2x Relics in the main:


2x Something (I don't like EE, but it's fringe hate for Ichorid, so... go ahead? Nerfs CB as well)
2x Pithing Needle
3x Crypt
4x Chalice
4x Plague (are you certain that you wouldn't want Jitte/ Ghostly Prison/ Ajani (FOR THE LOVE OF GOD EVERYONE PLAYING MORE THAN 12 CREATURES TEST THIS) in these slots, considering that Plague is just about only good against Goblins, where your change from Tombstalker* to Grunts makes the deck weaker against agro in general anyway, while Jitte is additional lifegain to negate Confidant's lifeloss, makes your creatures significantly larger after the first activation, and, on a winmore/ fringe note, makes an Angel swing a 16 point life total differential. Or just Prison, because it gives you time to get an Angel and have it still be relevant).

Continuing my ramblings in stream-of-thought format, about the aggro match: Why wouldn't you play 4 Swords to Plowshares? Seriously, you're trying to better the aggro match and you're playing only 3 Swords to Plowshares? It's mitigated by the presence of a playset of Vindicate, but I would certainly take out one of the 2x discard spells (Hymn or Verdict) for the 4th StP, and possibly consider taking two more out for 2x Smother/ Shriekmaw (although the 5cc of Shriekmaw makes me sad), considering that discard will become dead in the lategame, and 10x spot removal that you can definitely cast on a reliable basis (referring to the presence of basics and Chrome Moxen) will put the brakes on agro fairly fast, even in the face of manabase disruption, or, at least leave them with a Kird Ape or whatever that is either easily blocked + killed, or ignored.

Well, hopefully that helped.

@rsaunder: Well, initially the deck was straight resource denial. It worked because decks were more reliant on lands and card advantage, so when you could out-land and out-draw them, you would most likely win (note the use of the past tense). That's what the deck did. It would deny resources to the opponent for an extended period of time, and crush their skull after a while with a Xbox Heug Nantuko Shade, or 'burn' them out with Cursed Scroll after cleaning up the board. Since then, the decks have become significantly more threat heavy (compare the current threat base of the contemporary builds to the threat base of yore, and you'll see what I mean. 4 Angels and 2 Grunts in Valarne's list, and 4 Shades and 3 Tombstalkers in Tao's list, to the 3 Shades of the initial concept and it's obvious) or taken in entirely different directions (for example, Aboroth's Death&Taxes/ Bunnies/ 'modern' Deadguy Ale Hybrid, and Anti-American/ Citrus God's Bunnies-esque lists from the Goblins era) and less concerned with denying resources than with keeping the playing field tipped in their direction, or at least un-leveled, than keeping the opponent off of anything significant, because decks have become less Card Advantage-centric, and more bomb-heavy and cantrip-heavy, so while card advantage will win games, there are times where you'll be burnt out, and they'll be burnt out, and you're ahead because of Confidant, but you're still top-decking because you have to play 2 spells a turn to keep them locked out, and then a enormous DoJ, or a Nimble Mongoose, or a resolved Haunting Echoes, or a Morphling or some such other stupid shit resolves and you're left looking at a Sinkhole and a Chrome Mox from your Confidant + natural draw going "wtf is this shit", and it's because resource denial has effectively been negated as a strategy.

You have to deny the opponent a relevant amount of a relevant resource and advance your board in a relevant fashion at the same time (because relevance is the key factor of this format). The deck 'became' tempo because it needed to operate in a smaller window of time. At the moment, the window is too small for it to effectively operate in, which is why this deck, that was once so prolific, is now underplayed. Sinkhole, Vindicate, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, and Hymn with a slow-to-start clock pale in comparison to Sinkhole, Stifle, Wasteland, Thoughtseize, Force of Will and Daze with the two best and fastest threats in the game (outside of Tendrils/ other storm cards and Painter's Servant + Grindstone), but that's mostly because the first set of control cards is slower, by trips and falls, than the other at doing the exact same thing. That, and it's hard to multi task when all of your spells cost mana. Deadguy Ale is like Suicide, but with slower threats, i.e. less effective. To say that Deadguy Ale is Tempo is effectively admitting that it has seceded it's role as a relevant metagame force to fasted decks with essentially the same game-plan. Personally, I really don't think it's tempo because of that (since Deadguy Ale is obviously something that people prepare for if they know it's in the meta, and it still does well, if not excellent, when it is played), but that it obviously fills a different niche.

Hello :) I'm pretty newbie when it comes to this deck, and I was wondering some things. First of all: What's the difference between deadguy ale and Pikula? Second, why doesn't deadguy ale run Tombstalker?

Thanks in advance!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Hello :) I'm pretty newbie when it comes to this deck, and I was wondering some things. First of all: What's the difference between deadguy ale and Pikula? Second, why doesn't deadguy ale run Tombstalker?

Thanks in advance!

---

Deadguy Ale and Pikula are, to my knowledge, the same thing, and some decks are, in fact, doing experiments with Tombstalker, but the reason it hasn't gained more momentum is because of the negative synergy with Dark Confidant, namely the chance of revealing Tombstalker with Confidant, which, while it is a fringe chance, some people are still concerned about.

That makes sense, thanks.

When Chris Pikula finished 2nd on the first Legacy GP
a) Pikula called the deck "Deadguy Ale/A Homebrew" - so there is no difference between deadguy and Pikula and
b) Tombstalker was not printed so he couldn't run it. I think Tombstalker does belong in Deadguy Ale without a doubt as you can see here:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...postcount=1509

Pretty cool, running SDT seems like a good way to avoid taking 8 to the face with bob :)
Deadguy Ale seems like a pretty cool deck, I'm looking for a new deck to build and play besides my aggroloam and goblins. So far I'm caught up between landstill, Eva Green and Deadguy Ale.

Any reasons why I should pick Deadguy Ale over Eva Green as my next deck?

@Raharu: Good idea to put RoP in the main. I'm gonna try just 1 out for starters(instead of 1 GV), as I'm not too happy having potential dead cards main. Then again it cantrips! Great thing.
Engineered Plague is actually tremendous in a lot of ways. Goblins it always mashes completely, otherwise unwinnable matchup almost. But any tribe, and I always seem to meet some, are either neutralized or killed by the plague. But it also comes in handy in unforeseen ways, when facing the odd deck, using some key toughness 1 critter. It also goes in against Ichorid, not optimal but quite ok still, either taking out Ichorid himself, Narcomoebas or Zombies, in that order. Ghostly Prison could be cool - I'll certainly give it thought. Jitte I cant see even testing, as Angels provide lifegain, and I only run 12 critters. Ajani would require some beats active before he would be stellar, right? Again a problem with only 12 beaters. The fourth Sword would go in instead of an EE, but against 3c Zoo especially, I'd rather have EE, plus it opens up the SB a bit. Between the 3 STP and Vindicates, I rarely feel in need of more spot-removal. The maindeckproposal of Relic is almost this though, seeing as Goyf is still dominating the meta.

When I play Deadguy - it feels like early-game control. When it works, I start of with turn 1 discard, turn 2 more discard or LD, maybe the same and removal turn 3. Maybe a Confidant, and an Angel the next turn. When I win, its usually sealed in the early midgame. Tempo not at all, and not heavy control either. Aggro-control in its own permanent-removing way.

Tombstalker: I've been playing a couple of these main a lot, but I always found that I rather would have had an Angel - because this deck often takes a bit of a beating before it starts to attack. Angel can make you go the distance, even though the opponent has a couple of bears that swing at you. Thanks to Hummingbird for emphasizing Angels value, by the way!

On Ajani: It doesn't require active beaters to be effective in certain matches, although it certainly is nice to have blockers for it in the agro match-up. Personally I've never been unsatisfied with it in most matches outside of combo, because it either makes whatever you have on board into a serious threat and gives you blockers for the turn (second ability), or lets you gain some life to mitigate whatever pressure the opponent is applying (first ability). It isn't that hard to sustain (although it would become much harder in your build. Considering the threat base, I 100% would not drop Ajani until I had a non-Confidant creature on the field [lulz, almost said unConfidant]}). It's a monster against control, makes the threshold matchup easier, and in long-winded games, it's nice to be able to get to far ahead on life that what they do has incredibly limited relevance, and then drop a giant dick with teeth/ avatar token and just cave skull. Then again, without more creatures... Not so good. Personally, I forsake the Land Destruction route to add more discard and threats. Something like 8 spot removal, 8-10 discard, 16-18 creatures, some number of Ajani, Jitte, and SDT. I liked it a bit better and it made threshold cry. Not the best selling point, but I'm not exactly selling anything, am I? :laugh:

Anyway, has anyone thought about testing Runed Halo? All things considered, it sounds pretty sick. It's good against agro, combo, control, well... everything. Thoughts?

@raharu: I agree with your assesments of the deck, 100%, although I don't remember the last time a version that played out like you're describing top8'd anything meaningful. I guess my question at this point would be whether or not the deck needs a complete re-working due to this change. It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long. So this leaves resource-denial-as control as the deck's only niche? Sounds like stax, quite honestly.

What would be the best way to make this into more of a long-term board control deck? As much as I mentioned them in jest before, crucible and smokestack fill that role very nicely. They aren't tempo in any sense of the word, just inevitability personified (card-sonified?).

I don't think this will go anywhere, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

Or hell, I might just be dead wrong and the versions that are being worked on are far more effective than I give them credit for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

@raharu: I agree with your assesments of the deck, 100%, although I don't remember the last time a version that played out like you're describing top8'd anything meaningful. I guess my question at this point would be whether or not the deck needs a complete re-working due to this change. It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long. So this leaves resource-denial-as control as the deck's only niche? Sounds like stax, quite honestly.

What would be the best way to make this into more of a long-term board control deck? As much as I mentioned them in jest before, crucible and smokestack fill that role very nicely. They aren't tempo in any sense of the word, just inevitability personified (card-sonified?).

I don't think this will go anywhere, but it's an interesting thought exercise.

Or hell, I might just be dead wrong and the versions that are being worked on are far more effective than I give them credit for.

---

Well, I don't really think that resource-denial is the best direction either, and I really dislike a Staxxx approach with Smokestacks. I've really liked the list I was playing (before I dropped it), but I've never got to play it in a tournament for lack of said tournaments. I presume it'd be nice to post the list:

Mana: 18
Windswept Heath x4
Bloodstained Mire x4
Scrubland x4
Swamp x3
Plains x3

Creatures: 18
Mother of Runes x4
Isamaru, Hound of Konda/ Ashling, the Extinguisher/ Spectral Lynx** x2
Jotun Grunt x2 (this most likely should be replaced)
Dark Confidant x4
Serra Avenger x3
Tomstalker x3

Artifacts: 6
Sensei’s Divining Top x3
Jitte x3

Planeswalkers: 2
Ajani Goldmane x2 (if you’re playing white and creatures you HAVE TO PLAY THIS. I’m not even kidding, it just wins all over the place. Try it).

Disruption: 8
Thoughtseize x4
Cabal Therapy x4 (this should most likely be something else. I was experimenting with -2 Therapy, -2 Free creature slot, +4 Gerard's Verdict, and it was nice)

Removal: 8
Swords to Plowshares x4
Vindicate x4

In retrospective, it'd be a good idea to make revisions such as these:

-2 Cabal Therapy, -2 Grunt, +4 Gerard's Verdict: personally, I think that Grunt is worse than Tombstalker, and Tombstalker and Grunt have negative synergy, so I'll keep Grunt and replace it with more disruption. I'm thinking another -2 Cabal Therapy and +2 Duress/ Runed Halo, but, well... Eh. Cabal Therapy should definitely be something else, though.

-2 variable creature slots, +2 Runed Halo. Those creatures are kinda weak, and Halo is strong in a number of matches. It's lame that there are only a few aggressive creatures left, but Halo might be good. It'd be nice to have more beaters, though. Perhaps -4 Verdicts, +4 Tidehollow Scullers, needs testing.

And that's about it. I'm not really sure what to say it's role is, it just plays the one that the Opposing deck doesn't (as in, "Who's the Beatdown?").

If you play Exalted Angel (which you really *should* be playing, and the only reason to not play it is that it costs 2 White mana, which Ajani coincidentally also happens to cost), there is no real reason to play Ajani. What slots does he go in? If not Angel's, you risk playing too much white. Or too much threats. (In which case, you're in the wrong thread, sir.) If you are, you ought to rethink Angel vs. Ajani. Ajani gains you two life a turn. Exalted Angel gains you 4, WHILE doing damage. Ajani needs another creature around to pump it, but Angel doesn't need another creature. Finally, Ajani gives you an avatar token. Which has p/t equal to your life total. Which is going to be very low already, since you'll be taking hits from all sorts of random things. Or he could just use his Tarmogoyfs as removal for Ajani, which doesn't work for Goyf vs. Angel (in fact, Angel does beat Goyf).

(In other news, how many +1/+1 counters do you want to give something before it can fight a Goyf head on?)

That's kind missing the point. In a build with more creatures like the one suggested, Ajani is better because it lets you swing harder while maintaining a strong defensive line, and gives you additional win-conditions, in addition to more support against agro.

Oh, I agree, smokestacks would be godawful. The deck doesn't have enough permanants to support them at all.

I'm pretty sure I could be tempted to look at something in the current meta that played 4 vindicate, 4 STP, 3 Crucible (with wasteland, duh), 4 sinkhole, 4 thoughtseize, and a few copies of Eseph (that planeswalker that makes creatures). Throw in green for a couple deeds and goyf and I think you have a removal-heavy land-destruction based control deck. It's definitely not deadguy (neither is the list you posted), but it might be the logical evolution considering that the deck is dying hard right now.

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.

---

Isn't that a problem that board sweepers fix pretty effectively? the basic gameplan would be disrupt in the early game, then sweep the board and the next turn play some fat creature.

Deadguy in its most classic form (think back a few years before all of these Wb weenie decks popped up) had inevitability over almost nothing. Goblins, given time would regain their feet and outdraw deadguy. Thresh would stabilize, as would landstill. Solidarity just has inevitability over everything ever. This deck had to survive early game, had a strong midgame, then got outdrawn again in the late game. I really don't think much has changed now, except hymn to tourach is now a somewhat lesser piece of disruption. Couldn't we just add soft locks to give deadguy inevitability? I mean, no one has presented a recent relevant T8 with the deck so something has to be able to change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

It cannot play the tempo game with Team America and loses the sui role to Eva all day long.

---

But, in a 1-1, Deadguy Ale beats both Team America and Eva Green. Ale has 7-8 Removal Spells for each of their creatures while they have exactly Zero if you only play black creatures. Plus you have a card drawing machine in Confidant that wins by itself in these mirrors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

Isn't that a problem that board sweepers fix pretty effectively? the basic gameplan would be disrupt in the early game, then sweep the board and the next turn play some fat creature.

---

Play IBA's Truffle Shuffle then. This is Deadguy Ale.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Pretty cool, running SDT seems like a good way to avoid taking 8 to the face with bob :)

---

It is not only to get Confidant running. It is often that you get players into a Topdeck war and then Top wins. I am still torn between 4 Stalker, 2 Top and 3/3. I see no other card to cut or reduce.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ectoplasm

Any reasons why I should pick Deadguy Ale over Eva Green as my next deck?

---

- You have Dark Confidant
- You have Vindicate (2nd LD and 2nd Removal)
- Your removal works against Tombstalker
- You are immune against Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

That deck looks to have the same (if not similar) failings that Deadguy has, namely being slow. Deadguy is fine in the midgame if you can get off enough disruption and fast, but many times almost every deck outspeeds it, so you do nothing; and that, I think, is the problem we should be working towards addressing.

---

It's slow, but it has enough relevant actions to take in the late game alongside enough relevant things to do in order to stall that it's speed doesn't matter. It's more threat-heavy and every play in the deck feels like a bomb, so you won't have random topdecks that make you go :frown:, outside of discard, which is good in the mid- and Late-game against control and combo anyway.

In theory, you're correct about the matchups against Eva and TA, but in practice you're wrong. Eva plays the tempo role very effectively against us, and most of our removal is nullified by sinkhole and wasteland. They also play 4x tombstalker and goyf, which outclass everything we play. Team America does the same thing, except they also have stifle to cut off fetches and daze does a number on this deck when backed up by goyf. I played this deck for years to so many 10th and 11th place finishes it was maddening. I might know a little about the theory behind it, so let's please not oversimplify arguments on my account.

As for the comparison to truffle shuffle, that's not what I was getting at remotely. But thanks for dismissing my point all the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

I played this deck for years to so many 10th and 11th place finishes it was maddening. I might know a little about the theory behind it, so let's please not oversimplify arguments on my account.

---

I did not mean to attack you personally. But I've played the deck a lot, too, since a long time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

In theory, you're correct about the matchups against Eva and TA, but in practice you're wrong. Eva plays the tempo role very effectively against us, and most of our removal is nullified by sinkhole and wasteland.

---

Just out of curiosity: How many lands do you run? (could only find a 3C list with 22 lands from you, the thread is a bit long).

Imo 19 Lands, 4 Wastelands always was and still is the correct number of lands. There are so many 17 lands, 4 Wasteland lists which are all horrible because they don't supply BB regularly on turn 2. Of course people lose against the first Wasteland when their lists have only 21 lands (not even taling about that 18 lands, 2 Ajani list).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

Team America does the same thing, except they also have stifle to cut off fetches and daze does a number on this deck when backed up by goyf.
They also play 4x tombstalker and goyf, which outclass everything we play.

---

Maybe with all the Stifles in the Meta we could play more Godless Shrine and 1-2 Fetid Heath to play around it (Fetid Heath is slightly superior to Tainted Field if you want to cast two White spells on one turn).

I play Stalker, too. Everyone should. So Stalkers will neutralize themselves. Without any enchantments or artifacts in both decks Shade will be able to take down a Goyf for 3 Mana (and with all these Stalkers around sometimes for 2 Mana).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

As for the comparison to truffle shuffle, that's not what I was getting at remotely. But thanks for dismissing my point all the same.

---

That is exactly where you are getting when you start playing sweepers. Once you play Board Sweepers there won't be any need for Dark Ritual and then you play big creatures and end at Finn's Dirt or IBA's Truffle Shuffle.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tao

Imo 19 Lands, 4 Wastelands always was and still is the correct number of lands. There are so many 17 lands, 4 Wasteland lists which are all horrible because they don't supply BB regularly on turn 2. Of course people lose against the first Wasteland when their lists have only 21 lands (not even taling about that 18 lands, 2 Ajani list).

---

That's just a biased opinion. Due to the fact that I'm not running Wasteland, I don't have any need for more than 18 lands since I'm not burning them off, and trying to say that that my manabase (you know, the one with 8 Fetches and 6 Basics?) gives a flying fuck about a single Wasteland is just biased opinion. That, and the fact that I don't have to cast Sinkhole, and the fact that I'm not feeding Nantuko Shade, and the general fact that my manabase requirements, as a whole, are less strenuous than the contemporary lists that you're accustomed to, mean that Wasteland isn't as relevant to me as you want to give it credit for. There are so many basic mana sources and ways to get at them that Wasteland doesn't matter. Team America is going to eat it, but then again Team America devours most things, and asks for seconds, so that's not really a relevant argument.

It's a different list that plays different, and looses some of the drawbacks of the contemporary lists, such as needing to lean on excess lands because the spells need the manabase to do absurd contortions just to play Magic. Evaluate it as such.

On a different note, is there really a whole lot of reason keeping one from just playing BW control?

@Tao: It's been a while since I played anything deadguy-ish competitively. I think my last Bw list played 22 land, with 4 wastes as the manabase. That Bwg list played out very well, oddly enough, but I don't want to get started on how useful the green splash is just now.

Why is it so sacreligious to suggest playing sweepers? If the deck still retains its overall game plan and just focuses in on more better creatures (E. Angel and stalker instead of hippy+whatever which I think are just too small now for use as beaters). It ends up being slower, of course, but better prepared for the meta is not a bad thing. The deck still focuses on winning the long-game through land destruction and mana-denial, although it gets more effective tools to do so.

I've currently settled on a list similar to Tao's with a few minor changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+ 3 Smallpox

However, Smallpox has been all sorts of meh. I don't like it when I'm behind in the creature race, as it it usually places far too much of a burden on my resources. I don't like it when it needs to be removal, because it will usually take out my lone threat and I don't like it when it needs to be disruption, because it hurts my board creature wise and I usually have a few cards in hand I want to hold on to. In a nutshell, the situation is that when it's good, I feel like there are other things that could have done it's job, and when it's bad, it's really frustrating.

Problem is, I don't know what I can run instead. If I could, I'd run 5 Sinkhole 5 Vindicate and 5 Swords.

@raharu - Your deck looks kinda like BW Aggro with some Deadguy elements, but not quite Deadguy (maybe call it that). An interesting idea. But I think that Wasteland is a necessary card for Deadguy. It makes Sinkhole better in a way, because it gives you 8 land destruction effects (unless you Hymn some).

@Whit3 Ghost - Smallpox is probably not the right direction for the deck. Edicts would be better even though you're probably running it for the combination of removal, discard and land destruction. Maybe Rancid Earth in that slot? It still covers a land kill and kills small creatures. Otherwise run stuff that comes back like Epochrasite (meh) or Nether Spirit (meh) or whatever to support Smallpox.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Whit3 Ghost

I've currently settled on a list similar to Tao's with a few minor changes of
-1 Land
-3 Top

+1 Swords
+ 3 Smallpox

---

My experiences with Smallpox were like yours: I didn't like it.
I know that you played and dismissed Top so I try to explain why I run it. An active Top is a better card Quality base than Team America's cantrips. I just played a game on MWS against a BGW Rock deck. In game 3 on the play I mulligan to six and he Thoughtseizes my Hymn away leaving me with a StoP and 4 Lands. Next draw step I draw a Top and from then on I win even though he had a solid draw. Top helped me stabilizing against his Goyf / Hierarch and then made me win the Topdeck war without many problems.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rsaunder

Why is it so sacreligious to suggest playing sweepers? If the deck still retains its overall game plan and just focuses in on more better creatures (E. Angel and stalker instead of hippy+whatever which I think are just too small now for use as beaters).

---

As I said I think Mass Removal would turn the deck too much into a control deck. I also see no need for it. Against other threat-light decks like Thresh or Team America a Spot Removal does nearly the same because they won't play a second creature into BBBB if they already beat for 5/turn. Against Goblins you lose on the long run anyway with or without Mass Removal because of Ringleader. And against Combo or Control Mass Removal is traditionally weak.

I don't play Hippie, it is outclassed by Stalker in nearly every way. I don't like Exalted Angel for many reasons:
- with Exalted + Stalker you can't play Confidant anymore
- Shade, Confidant and Stalker are all must-answers, too and they are much easier to play
- Exalted Angel makes you vulnerable against Snuff Out and Ghastly Demise

@Tao:

I don't play Stalker because Stalker doesn't block as well as Angel. Stalker is meant to be aggressive, and playing aggro against some decks, namely Thresh and anything else faster than you, is suicide. Angel trumps Thresh with an 8 point life swing a turn, something Tombstalker can't do. I'm not saying play BOTH Angel and Stalker, I'm saying play Angel over Stalker. One drawback, however, I confess, is that Angel does cost a lot more mana, and especially a lot more white.

@Rsaunder:

Running sweepers cost mana. Turning this deck into a control deck does, too. This requires us to play more lands. however, with the poor quality of search available in these colors, playing more lands would result in drawing dead lategame (or doing many tricks with Top, which again cost mana, and thus slow you down even further, requiring you to spend mana to make land drops or spend mana to draw useful spells which you then lack mana to cast).

On inevitability, I'm not saying Deadguy necessarily has good inevitability. However, it does at least have Exalted Angels, which are a fast clock, and, if necessary, Volrath's Stronghold to recur them is a viable option (assuming they aren't StPed); and with fast clocks and a bit of inevitability in the form of Stronghold, Deadguy can actually possibly benefit from the tempo gains it creates.

@Whit3 Ghost: I agree wholeheartedly on Smallpox. Most lists nowadays don't play it often though.

Yesterday I reached the top 8 in the Danish Legacy Nationals (although called Grand Tournament due to some Wotc decision or something.)

I'll be posting a report in a few days or so, but for this threads interest, I can say that notable plusses were:

4 Exalted, 3 Grunts (and 4 BOB). This creaturebase worked like a charm for me. I never felt like I had too few or too many, and the grunts came in handy a lot, while the Angels did their thing, racing stuff.

4 Hymn, 4 Gerrards Verdict. I really liked this, but in retrospect would have taken 1 GV out, for the fourth STP. I didn't hit any ANT though, and in this MU 8 2-for-1's is golden.

Ichorid matchup was quite decent postboard, with 4 Ghostly Prison, 4 RoP and 3 EE from the side. Won two rounds against Ichorid.

Congratulations on the top8, Valarne! It's been a long time since Deadguy Ale top 8-ed anything! How many people were in the tournament, btw? (Oh, and what's an RoP?)

About the deck, though, isn't running so much white taxing on your manabase (i.e. forcing you to fetch Scrublands aggressively)? And is Ghostly Prison (which costs 3 mana) too slow in the Ichorid matchup? You also didn't seem to mention Leyline of the Void, even though it was in your list the last time you posted it, if I remember correctly...was it taken out?

Hmm Congratulations anyway!

Regards,

Hummingbird TG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Congratulations on the top8, Valarne! It's been a long time since Deadguy Ale top 8-ed anything! How many people were in the tournament, btw? (Oh, and what's an RoP?)

About the deck, though, isn't running so much white taxing on your manabase (i.e. forcing you to fetch Scrublands aggressively)? And is Ghostly Prison (which costs 3 mana) too slow in the Ichorid matchup? You also didn't seem to mention Leyline of the Void, even though it was in your list the last time you posted it, if I remember correctly...was it taken out?

Hmm Congratulations anyway!

Regards,

Hummingbird TG

---

Thanks! I think there was about 86 players.
Manabase: Well it really helps bringing in 8 B/W cards (Verdict and Vindicate), to feed the Mox. There was a few games were I got landdisrupted, and that was a problem - but mostly because I was sitting with a Wasteland or Stronghold along with one land, and a bad hand for it. Getting WW wasn't generally an issue.
RoP is Relic of Progenitus. I used this instead of Leyline because it is a bit more versatile, and not a dead topdeck. Its quite ok against Ichorid, and useful against Thresh, which is a tough matchup.

I actually didn't draw any Ghostly Prisons, because I had hands with RoP and/or EE and Grunt. But they would have been awesome I'm sure. It can hit the table by turn 2, and of course this can be too slow, but when its accompanied with other anti-threats, then I think its fine. Remember that, if it resolves, then its probably GG, considering the 12 Landdestruction effects in Deadguy. All that aside, I was aiming for a versatile SB, and the Prisons would be useful in a lot of other tough matchups, such as Zoo, which was/is rampant in the Danish meta.

Congratulations for your top8!!
Can you post yuor decklist? Because I don't know it and I would like see it.
tnx

Thanks, and sure. The list was:

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives

Here's the report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11978

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valarne

Thanks, and sure. The list was:

4 Wasteland
3 Windswept Heath
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
1 Volraths Stronghold
3 Swamp
1 Plains

4 Exalted Angel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Jotun Grunt

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gerrards Verdict
4 Sinkhole
4 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Senseis Divining Top
4 Chrome Mox

SB:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Engineered Explosives

---

This looks like a good list, but I have a few questions. First, how does it do against decks with CounterTop, particularly Threshold variants and Dreadstill? Looking strictly at the cmc spread of the deck, it would seem like CounterTop would be a big, fat, game-ending kick in the junk. On the other hand, I could see them having to get past so much discard and LD in order to get CB on the table that they would be basically out of cards when they did, and their CB would just suck a Vindicate. Which is it? Also, how is the AggroLoam matchup? Finally, is it really worth it to sideboard Engineered Explosives when the highest it can go is 2? What matches do you bring it in for, and how has it been?

EDIT: Another question: Do you have issues with threat density?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BlindMage

This looks like a good list, but I have a few questions. First, how does it do against decks with CounterTop, particularly Threshold variants and Dreadstill? Looking strictly at the cmc spread of the deck, it would seem like CounterTop would be a big, fat, game-ending kick in the junk. On the other hand, I could see them having to get past so much discard and LD in order to get CB on the table that they would be basically out of cards when they did, and their CB would just suck a Vindicate. Which is it? Also, how is the AggroLoam matchup? Finally, is it really worth it to sideboard Engineered Explosives when the highest it can go is 2? What matches do you bring it in for, and how has it been?

EDIT: Another question: Do you have issues with threat density?

---

Well, CounterTop doesn't seem to be too popular anymore, in the metas I run into. It can be tough, as always, but I still fell that theres a decent spread between the 1, 2, and 3 cmc, too allow one to play around it - and yeah having 4 Vindicates relieves the stress of seeing Countertop, or Chalice at 1 AND 2, which I tried once in the tourney.
Thresh is a tough matchup, worse than StifleNought I think, because their beats are so solid and persistant, while I have a lot of removal for the one Nought that tend to see the table.
AggroLoam can also be bad, preboard, but isn't played enough to really scare me as such. EE is so versatile, especially against tokens, and Counterbalance for instance. Primarily though for Zoo, which presents too many threats, but all ranging at 1cc or 2cc.
The threat density was a problem, but I felt that it improved vastly when I just ran 3 Grunts, because they are solid once they hit - and I don't want to play any creatures until I have severed their hand, and hopefully their land as well - feeding the grave, and giving Grunt a long life.
Thanks for the questions!

ps: Yea, when the deck is running smoothly, it can really hold people off having permanents, which is nice:)

edit: heres the top8 decklist: http://www.deckcheck.net/event.php?e...cy+Champs+2008

First post to source :) Yai.
So.. I have recently played with this kind of list:

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tainted Field
1 Volrath's Stronghold
21
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
13
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant (Random)
26


I have been very satisfied with Tombstalker. I really would like to play three of them but can't do that because of Confidants. I have also tried Jitte's and Sofais but those just doesn't work for me.

What do you think about Tidehollow Sculler? Sounds pretty good to me.
Tomb of Urami?

I think that Goblins and Sligh are quite bad matchups :/
Also Countertop is annoying against this deck. Gotta try changing Disenchants to Dismantling Blows.

-Ziilot

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ziilot

First post to source :) Yai.
So.. I have recently played with this kind of list:

5 Swamp
4 Scrubland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Tainted Field
1 Volrath's Stronghold
21
4 Dark Confidant
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Tombstalker
13
4 Hymn To Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Vindicate
4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Disenchant (Random)
26


I have been very satisfied with Tombstalker. I really would like to play three of them but can't do that because of Confidants. I have also tried Jitte's and Sofais but those just doesn't work for me.

What do you think about Tidehollow Sculler? Sounds pretty good to me.
Tomb of Urami?

I think that Goblins and Sligh are quite bad matchups :/
Also Countertop is annoying against this deck. Gotta try changing Disenchants to Dismantling Blows.

-Ziilot

---

Hello then!

Why Dismantling Blows, when youre playing no blue manasources (unless I'm missing it)? Simply because of CounterTop? How about Engineered Explosives instead? This can be set to your desired manacost, and take other stuff than just Counterbalance.

Bleh I had to dig to page 2 to get this thread. Looks like it's time for a bump to the first page eh?

Anyway what I'm posting about is the Threshold matchup, or rather a question on it. It appears to me that we're strictly outclassed by Threshold in terms of deck strategy and execution thereof (Our disruption costs us mana, their disruption costs US mana (and is free for them); their search/draw is better than ours (Cantrips v. 4 Dark Confidants); and they have a lock against almost everything we play (and it's hard to kill them fast enough before they set it down).

So how do we play this matchup? And how do we side?(I'm playing Valarne's list, btw.) I presume we side in Relic of Progenitus, but then what do we take out? Should we play additional outs to CB, btw?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

Bleh I had to dig to page 2 to get this thread. Looks like it's time for a bump to the first page eh?

Anyway what I'm posting about is the Threshold matchup, or rather a question on it. It appears to me that we're strictly outclassed by Threshold in terms of deck strategy and execution thereof (Our disruption costs us mana, their disruption costs US mana (and is free for them); their search/draw is better than ours (Cantrips v. 4 Dark Confidants); and they have a lock against almost everything we play (and it's hard to kill them fast enough before they set it down).

So how do we play this matchup? And how do we side?(I'm playing Valarne's list, btw.) I presume we side in Relic of Progenitus, but then what do we take out? Should we play additional outs to CB, btw?

---

Yeah Thresh is really a pain. Well, being a DTB for a long time has its reasons. If the Thresh-player is running CounterTop, we could bring in some EE, along with maybe 2-3 Relics. We shouldnt compromise to much of our own strategy, but I'm thinking that siding out the Sinkholes should be ok. It really weakens our LD, but against Thresh, this rarely seems game-ending anyway (because of their low cmc). Our gameplan would then switch from heavy-LD to spot-removing their few threats.
EE is a tool against CounterTop, but also their oftentimes onesided table of Goyfs or Geese.

So -4 Sinkhole +2 Relic +2 EE? I'd personally like more EEs, though...

How about game one, btw? It seems we just lose that game... (Thresh has the amazing ability to play so many cards in its deck that wreck us, such that just topdecking one after all our disruption means it can win...

By the way, why not side in CotV at 1 (stops Swords to Plowshares, and Cantrips, and if it drops before Top, stops CB lock)? (But of course there's the problem as to what to side out...)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

So -4 Sinkhole +2 Relic +2 EE? I'd personally like more EEs, though...

How about game one, btw? It seems we just lose that game... (Thresh has the amazing ability to play so many cards in its deck that wreck us, such that just topdecking one after all our disruption means it can win...

By the way, why not side in CotV at 1 (stops Swords to Plowshares, and Cantrips, and if it drops before Top, stops CB lock)? (But of course there's the problem as to what to side out...)

---

As to game one; As you pointed out earlier in the thread (if my memory serves me) getting an Exalted Angel to stick and perform beats, should be able to do the trick. In general its tough, as you point out, because their deck is more consistent than ours. If we know the opponent is playing Thresh, then we can't allow for a semi-weak hand, but really have to make sure that we can put some pressure from the beginning(bearing Daze in mind still).
I considered CotV at some point, and it might be good, but should we then board out Thoughtseize and STP? Those are great in this matchup as well. Plus we kinda force our selves to mull for land, Chrome and Cotv, because we have put so much of the decks energy in this direction (which can be forced or dazed, if it is pursued so aggressively).
It might work, but on paper (havent tested sufficiently), i'd prefer some mix of EE and Relic. Maybe more could be sided out for more EE, maybe some Gerrards Verdict. EE certainly is a bomb, as they have no recursion, and few ways to deal with a Grunt or Angel holding of Geese or shrinking Goyfs.

My biggest problem with the stick an Angel gameplan is that Thresh always seems to have Swords to Plowshares somewhere, else it'd just shuffle its deck with fetches and do a bit of Topping, and voila. Chalice stops that. Of course, we have to side out swords, but we can side them out for the Engineered Explosives we're bringing in, so we aren't short on removal. We can then, as you suggested, side out the Verdicts for Relics. (I wouldn't oppose to keeping in thoughtseizes though. Turn 1 Thoughtseize Turn 2 Chalice sounds amazingly attractive).

I don't actually propose that we should mull for Chalice (We have enough problems finding a keepable hand with adequate disruption and mana anyway, and I don't think we need to increase those problems). However, Chalice is a must counter, meaning they have one less counter for our Angels, Bobs and Grunts when they do come down (sadly when CB is down this all means nothing). And preferably, their counters would have been worn down removing our earlier disruption/creatures.

On a tangent, what's your opinion on running Maindecked Chalice, as opposed to maindeck StP? Of course, we're going to have to fit in alternative removal somewhere, maybe EE... Would this increase our Artifact Count too much for Chrome Mox? And is this idea even tenable?

---

EDIT: I made a new post for the following, but discovered it took up a new page, so I moved it here instead and deleted that.

I had a sudden brainwave:

How about siding Sudden Spoiling for Threshold? It makes all their creatures lose to our creatures, and it can't be countered.

Although I do have to admit that against Thresh even having creatures is extremely lucky, so i guess it may not solve anything at all...