[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

Hey, I gave my version a run the other night and went 1-2 (lost ANT, beat MUD, lost Dredge) and left the last round rather than play against the Enchantress guy with MD choke and carpet.

My build has 13 creatures (4 Delver, 4 DRS, 2 TNN, 2 Mandrills, 1 Dreadnought, no Goyf), 19 lands (8 fetch, 4 waste, 4 sea, 3 trop), and this spell suite:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
1 Murderous Cut
1 Spell Snare
1 Sylvan Library

I was wondering if it would be better for me to find space for Gitaxian Probes with this build, and increase the amount of Delve creatures (add some number of Tasigurs, basically). Since I'm playing more reactive than proactive, I think the information + dig for disruption would be helpful. Maybe Library isn't a fit here? I liked that it gave me a permanent way to match Dreadnought with Stifle late, but I'm not used to playing reactive and I don't feel like I should be tapping out as much. That's also why I'm not running MD discard (I had two Duress in the board).

I am aware that Dreadnought is cute and I am up to advice on the creature suite as well, but I won't be buying Goyfs till MM2 is at least announced if not released. If I ever can borrow them, I'd probably run a Hymn/Liliana version of the deck with Bayou. So please give me feedback on this build and not an idealized version. Goyf is pretty much the only budget consideration I have related to this deck -- I have been running my 4th force in the board-- so I should be able to handle other suggestions. Thanks!

Hi,

last saturday i went with the following deck 4/2 in a 42 Peope Tournament and got Place 9:

Lands:
2 Bayou / 2 Tropical Island / 3 Underground Sea / 4 Wasteland / 8 Fetch

Creatures:
4 DRS / 4 Delver / 4 Tarmogoyf

Instants:
4 Daze / 3 FoW / 4 Abrupt Decay / 4 Brainstorm / 1 Murderous Cut

Sorceries:
4 Ponder / 2 Thoughtseize / 3 Hymn

Enchantments:
1 Sylvan Library / 1 Monastery Siege

PW:
2 Liliana of the Veil

SB:
1 Pithing Needle / 1 Null Rod / 2 Grafdiggers Cage / 2 Spell Pierce / 1 FoW / 2 Disfigure / 1 Toxic Deluge / 1 Dread of Night / 2 Golgari Charm / 1 Maelmstrom Pulse / 1 Krosan Grip

Matchups:
Game 1: Death&Taxes 0:2; Game 2: Enchantress 2:1; Game 3: Storm 2:0; Game 4: UWR-Delver 2:0; Game 5: Miracles 0:2; Game 6: Jund 2:1

The one off Monastery Siege and Murderous Cut in the MB were a Test.
Monastery Siege did´t convinced me at all. It resoved only once in the UWR-Delver Match, in which i was ahead. So it feeled like a win more card. Has anyone some experiences with this Card in TA?
Murderous Cut was good. But I think it´s better placed in the SB.
I played only 3 ToW in the MB, because in this build the blue-cound is a bit to low, to playing the full playset. In the relvant Matchups (for example Storm) i boarded the full countermagic. So that feels always O.K.

After the Tournament i decided to cut Monastery Siege. Muderoud Cut went to the SB. For the 2 Slots i added 1 FoW and 1 Hooting Mandrills (I want to test them). I´m not sure of playing 4 FoW or getting 3 Daze, 3 FoW and 2 Spell Pierce Main in this List.

O.K....that´s it...
Greetings from Germany..

Moe

First the list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Dig Through Time
1 Dimir Charm
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder

2 Bayou
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Winter Orb
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Disfigure
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thoughtseize

My memory is terrible at keeping track of sequence, so this report is probably all disjointed, I apologize.

Round 1: Jund

Game 1: I recall having a Brainstorm, Spell Pierce, 2 Lands, not sure what else, perhaps an extra land and a Goyf? A brief aside, the first turn is hazy to me, I am always very nervous Round 1 of any big tournament. I feel a lot of pressure to get that first win. Don't remember if he played or fetched a Bayou then a Badlands, or played a Grove (pretty sure it was Badlands), which made me certain I was facing Jund and sad that Spell Pierce was in my hand. I beleive on turn 2 I could have cast Goyf, but deciding not to, becasue there were only Lands and Instants in the yard and I didn't want him to Bolt it, so I hold up Spell Pierce. He plays a 3rd land on his turn and cast Sylvan Library. I hit it with the Pierce. Untap, play a Hymn I think. Rest of the game is hazy, but we trade removal and threats, but I draw more Goyfs than him though and it's 5/6 so his 1 Punishing Fire can pick off everything else, but not that. It gets there.

I beleive I board Forces for Disfigures and a Clique. I think I put in 1 Surgical over a Daze to hit Punishing Fire.

Game 2: I might have mulled this game, I am not sure, but certainly no lower than 6. I think I played a turn 1 Deathrite? All I can recall is that he Hymned me (I think he hit a Decay and something I don't remember), then I top decked a Hymn and fire back. I hit Goyf and Library. He plays a Chandra's Phoenix (yeah, he never hit me with a Red spell though, they all had to aim at my creatures) and I Disfigure it. This was probably a misplay, I should have just resigned myself to taking two. I beleive it was the turn after that he plays a Confidant and I have no answer. I think I had Daze and he had 1 land up. I don't draw much but cantrips. His Bob takes his life low and he lands Liliana. Lili takes to plusing and I can't play my Goyf until Lili is gone. His life total is 4 and he Decays his own Bob, which someone watching points out was a misplay, he could have just minused his Lili on himself. I draw Decay, tag Lili, then he plays Goyf and so do I. He can't attack because his life total is in Goyf range (6/7 now with Lili in the yard). I believe he removes my Goyf, but I get another or a Deathrite or something and end up killing him.

After the game, someone tells him about the Decay on his own Bob misplay and he tells me than the Hymn I played took his only two business spells. He also explains that he drew almost every fetchable land in his deck. Whew.

Round 2: Alurn

Game 1: He plays first, mulls, keeps and plays a Basic Island. He Probes, then Brainstorms. I play a Deathrite or Delver and he scoops. OK....

I have no idea what he is on, maybe High Tide, I know someone was playing it in the Legacy Challenge the day before. I board in a Thought Seize, a Clique and a Flusterstorm. I think I took out 1 Decay and something else I don't remember, probably a Daze.

Game 2: He plays a first turn Deathrite. OK...not on High Tide. I play turn 1 Delver. I have two Brainstorms and a Ponder in hand, so I feel good about a flip. Turn 2 he casts Thoughtseize, takes a Goyf I think, then Cabal Therapy on Brainstorm. Well, that happened. Turn three he plays Deamstalker and I realize he is on Alurn, but in the end though, I think I drew Goyf and Goyf, then Delver. A Wasteland and a removal spell on a second Deathrite keeps him off 4 mana, and beats get there.

Round 3: Miracles

Game 1: I know he is on Miracles, because I sat next to him the day before at the Legacy Challenge. I keep a hand with I think two threats, a Decay, some cantrips and lands. He has Top, but I manage to keep pressure on him with 1 threat at a time, so his Terminus' are not very good and he has to use Swords. I recall getting him to 5, at which point he plays Jace but has to stay on bouncing. Eventually I whittle down Jace and he plays another. I believe it was 6-7 turns on him bouncing and me replaying Goyf through a blind Counterbalance. He runs out of Jace bounces and I eventually win.

I got real lucky, since he had so many looks, he nearly stabilized. Board in Winter Orb, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Clique. I boarded out a Wasteland, a Daze, and I can't remember what.

Game 2: Game 2 is a little more clear to me, I believe I Needled Top early and played a turn 3 Library. Library never stops giving me threats which he had to Swords, which gives me enough life to draw more with Library. Looking at life totals, I don't believe I hit him with anything besides Goyfs.

Round 4: RUG Delver

Game 1: I keep a really bad hand. Double Deathrite, Ponder, Force, Brainstorm, Decay, one fetch. I figure the hand can play around Wasteland and maybe come together. He is on the play though and he plays Trop, go. I play Delta, fetch, he Stifles, I Force, he Dazes. Wrecked. I play enough to know for sure he's on RUG, then scoop without ever getting a land or discarding.

Board out Force, Disfigures and Clique come in.

Game 2: I believe in this game I get an unanswered Goyf and Liliana and win, all I have down is he went from 20-16-11-5, next game.

Game 3: I have to mull a mono-fetch hand and keep a incredibly risky 6. Double Waste and all kind of colored spells. I am hoping to catch him off guard and maybe be able to screw him out of colored mana, but I really just don't feel good about going to 5. It ends up he has plenty of lands, but only a Mongoose as a threat, so I don't take much damage as I finally draw colored mana. The game was very grindy, in the end though, I am at 6 and I end of his turn Dig Through Time. 4 lands, Double Decay, and a Daze. I am sad, because I need both Decays and a 4th land. In the end I take the two Decays and hope to fade a land for draw. I do, except it's a Wasteland. I hit his Red, pass. He attacks with a Insectile Aberation and two Goyfs. I have one Goyf, so I block and kill Delver with Decay, going to 3. My turn I draw Library, but can't play it and Decay, so I pass and he draws, attacks, I block and Decay his second Goyf. I don't remember what I drew that turn, but I pass back, he draws a fetch, gets a Volc and Bolts me. Oh well...

Round 5: Oops, all Spells

Game 1: Turn 1, he vomits his hand onto the board, Balustrade Spies himself, flips his deck and I make him go through most of the motions. When he goes to Cabal Therapy me, I examine his yard to see how he would win, ask what he names with Therapy (Force) then scoop. He says I'm the first person to do that. Who did he play before? I would have him not see what I am playing rather than trying to take the Hail Mary that he can't actually preform the Dread Return.

Surgicals, Null Rod, Needle, Flusterstorm, Clique, Thoughtseize, Krosand Grip in. Lilis, Decays, a Wasteland, a Hymn.

Game 2: He mulls to 6 I believe. I keep 7 with double Daze, Null Rod, Cage, Ponder, two lands. I play turn 1 Cage. He plays turn 1, Lotus petal, Dark Rit and I Daze. He pitches ESG to pay, Ritual, Belcher, pass turn. I draw, replay land and pass, sweating. He draws and passes. I play second land, drop Null Rod. He reads it and scoops. He said he had a Cabal Ritual, so if I hadn't Dazed he would have won. Yep...

Game 3: He mulls to 6 again, I think. I can't remember if I kept 6 or 7, but I have Surgical and Ponders. He turn 1 passes. I play an land and Ponder, shuffling and drawing I think another Ponder. On his turn he plays a Petal and Therapies me, naming Force, missing, then passes. I fade the Force coolly and pass. He goes for it, Petal, Ritual, Summoners Pact, Informer and I Force the creature. He Pact of Negations, so it resolves. Thinking about it now, he should have just stopped, knowing I had the Surgical. Maybe he fades a Pact and wins (he couldn't know, but another Surgical was on the op of my library)? Instead he pops the Informer off a SSG, flips his deck and with Narco triggers on the stack, I surgical them. He scoops. Whew...

Round 6: Miracles

Game 1: I keep what seems like a reasonable hand, Delver and some cantrips. It never comes together though, he has all the Swords to Plowshares. Then Entreats for a whole bunch, blocks my Delver to death and I lose to Angels.

Game 2: I lock out Top and it sets him far back. I hit him with a couple Wastelands and he can't get on track. I land Library, then Lili, then Goyf, then using the life from Swords on my Goyf, draw Deathrites and whittle his life total down, while Lili goes ultimate and deals with another Jace.

Game 3: I unfortunately keep a hand with a Deathrite, a Ponder, a Decay, a Needle, Winter Orb and 2 lands. He mulls to 6 and turn 1 Plains. I turn 1 Needle. He plays a Mystic Gate and passes. I play a Deathrite, he Counterspells. On his turn he fetches, get Volc and plays Blood Moon. I frown. 15 minutes on the clock. I can play the Winter Orb and try to draw it out, but I decide to just scoop. We both know I lost there and I know Shane can win in 15 minutes, so I am not going to sit and count a minute each turn on what to discard.

Round 7: High Tide

Game 1: He mulls to 6. I have no idea what I kept, but he plays turn 1 Island, Probe, Brainstorm, scoop. OK, second time today.

I think to myself, is this one maybe the High Tide guy? I do it again and board in, Flusterstorm, Thoughtseize, and Clique for Decays.

Game 2: I keep 7 with a Hymn, 2 Lands, a Delver, Force and Ponder and Goyf. He Preordains. I play a land and play Delver. Another Island for him and he Prordains again. I draw and play a fetch, get a Bayou and Hymn, he Forces, so I Force back. I hit a Time Spiral and a High Tide. He draws and passes. I draw something irreverent, probably a land and play a Goyf. He plays another land and passes. I think Delver still had not flipped and Goyf was only a 3/4. I remember that I Hymned him again and he Cunning Wished for a Flusterstorm and countered the Hymn. I think my next turn I played a Liliana and he scooped.

Round 8: UWR Stoneblade (I think, I never saw a Delver from him)

Game 1: I'm fast out the gate with Delver, Double Goyf. He resolves a True Name. Here's where the game got out of hand. Mind you, it's round 8, so I am definitely tired and my head is pounding. Goyf was only a 2/3 at this point, because Swords had dealth with my creatures and only lands were in the yards with Instants. I play a Ponder to pump Goyf, shuffle and draw, then swing. He blocks one and takes 3. He takes his turn, draws and passes. I draw and attack. He plays Snapcaster, so I Brainstorm and while doing so, he looks at my lands and asks how did I pay for the Ponder. I get totally confused and tap another land for it, even though I felt like I had played it earlier. I find a Decay on the Brainstorm, but now I can't play it on the Snapcaster. We briefly discuss the Ponder issue and since we both don't understand why the other is confused, we get no where and I just give up, lose my Goyf to a double block and then lose to True-Name, when I should have just called the Judge. After the game I realize what happens and explain it to my opponent. I think he realizes what happened then too, but it's too late to do anything.

Board out Forces for Disfigures and a Clique.

Game 2: Very hazy on what happened in this game, but I win.

Game 3: He mulls to 5, gets his second land Wasted, I kill Stoneforge, I land Library, Lili, Goyf, and it's over.

I guess maybe that last bit was something of Karma. I am pretty sure if I don't tap that extra land, I Decay the Snapcaster and win the race with True-Name, because I did draw a Delver after a couple turns, but with no Goyf, it didn't matter. I didn't have any hard feelings toward my opponent, I had no feeling that he did anything purposely, I think we were both tired and misconstrued the situation. It was really my own fault for not just calling a Judge over, because it would have given us the time we needed to realize why we were both confused.

Props:
Aaron for driving.
Jacob for making the plans.
Jason for letting me steal his phone charger (and getting 13th place).
Hymn to Tourach for being a damn good Magic card.
My wife for not caring about Valentines Day.

Slops:
Garbage ass Motel 6, didn't even have shampoo.
Me, for forgetting my phone charger.
Convention center Starbucks for not opening until 9, the same time the tournament started.
Cracker Barrel for having the B kitchen team on.
Construction near Beaumont that meant I got home in time for only 2 hours of sleep.

As I said before, the decklist is not constructed optimally. As it turns out though, sometimes you just Hymn your opponent and you win.

First, I had 4 Force of Will, in fact, until the Legacy Challenge I could have sworn I did. I only found the 4th after looking for about 15 minutes on my desk at home. I have no idea when or why I cut it to be honest.

Dimir Charm is not really suited for the wide meta, but if you see Elves often, I think it is reasonable because a removal spell that can counter Natural Order or Glimpse is pretty decent.

I think my sideboard was very good and in retrospect, I don't think I would change anything there. Winter Orb is quite real. I board it in versus Miracles, but also versus Lands and 12-Post (Turbo Eldrazi, whatever the kids call it now-a-days). The weakest slot was BEB and it's just a minor hedge against Burn that can sometimes be useful versus Sneak and Show.

On the Hymn versus Stifle debate, I think they are opposite side's of the same coin. The deck looks to deplete an opponent of resources, Hymn as cards in hand, and Stifle mainly as mana. Both have upsides, but I choose to run Hymn mainly because I just like the card better. In addition, I think Hymn offers you a 2-1, at the risk of sometimes being dead in the late game. Since we don't much want to be in the late game, I am willing to trade that off.

On Delve creatures, I think they are good, but I was expecting Miracles and so they are not very good versus Swords, Jace and RiP. I find Clique to be a great "extra threat" since it can do so much in different matchups (but mainly Miracles).

This is what I played last night on my janky cockatrice "streaming" session:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

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Maindeck looks good, although, I personally wouldn't foray into 14 creature territory. Our chance of flipping Delver is already lower than I'd like to be honest.

On the sideboard, I would probably make one Cage into a Surgical. My reasoning would be that 2 Cages only makes you a tiny bit better versus Elves, but does nothing to help you versus decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam. Then again, my local meta does cloud that, because we could have 4+ Lands players at any given time and more from the other side of the state at other times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

Maindeck looks good, although, I personally wouldn't foray into 14 creature territory. Our chance of flipping Delver is already lower than I'd like to be honest.

On the sideboard, I would probably make one Cage into a Surgical. My reasoning would be that 2 Cages only makes you a tiny bit better versus Elves, but does nothing to help you versus decks with Punishing Fire and/or Loam. Then again, my local meta does cloud that, because we could have 4+ Lands players at any given time and more from the other side of the state at other times.

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I actually like the 14 creature build since it helps our jund, junk, matchup tremendously.

I do agree that we do not run enough spells to flip delver, but the only options to take out right now is sylvan library and lily, but both are needed.

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

Has anyone tried Green Sun's Zenith as our 13th/14th creature?
Flips Delver, finds Deathrite when it's good or simply finds Goyf for a mana more.
Seems worth a try.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

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Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

Maybe we should venture into removing delver.

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I get this, but there are many times where Delver just flies over the ground game ignoring those creatures, and that could hinder our already poor MU's against decks like D&T, Maverick, and Elves. I've been toying with Tasigur lately and I'm leaning towards going back to Tombstalker for that same reason, he just ignores the ground game and establishes a good clock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alastair

Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

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I think DRS is the mvp in this deck. I would not leave home with less than 4. I would play 8 if i can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

I get this, but there are many times where Delver just flies over the ground game ignoring those creatures, and that could hinder our already poor MU's against decks like D&T, Maverick, and Elves. I've been toying with Tasigur lately and I'm leaning towards going back to Tombstalker for that same reason, he just ignores the ground game and establishes a good clock.

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Thats why i've been liking mandrills more than the tasigur.

People been plowing hootings more than tasigur when both are on the board.

I forgot to mention, I've also been testing with 19 lands to boost spell count by 1... it's something :smile:

So far it seems do-able, for the Hymn build that is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fallacy

I forgot to mention, I've also been testing with 19 lands to boost spell count by 1... it's something :smile:

So far it seems do-able, for the Hymn build that is.

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I've been doing that.

19 is fine as is. Just make sure you have 4 seas instead of a fetch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

This is what I played last night on my janky cockatrice "streaming" session:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Sylvan Library
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Murderous Cut

SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Winter Orb
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Disfigure
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 2 Krosan Grip

Only ended up playing against Patriot Delver due to time constraints, but the list felt really good.

-Matt

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DId you not find having 3 delve cards to be overwhelming. The only reason TC worked was because it gave you more cards and puts itself in the GY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Has anyone tried Green Sun's Zenith as our 13th/14th creature?
Flips Delver, finds Deathrite when it's good or simply finds Goyf for a mana more.
Seems worth a try.

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I might just try that in a 20 land build. I'm not sure it'll be good though. I think if I'd go that route though, I'd want some kind of creature with some utility to find. Maybe Scavenging Ooze. Probably makes the whole deck worse though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alastair

Every time I head down this route I end up in a almost creatureless Ctrl build, maybe with 1-3 Snapcaster and/or Clique. Sticking with the creature plan sans Delver really slows you down to a firm mid-late game, which is a worse strategy than Shardless or Jund; giving up the double Delver free wins.

I like the Ctrl BUG lists, but you run the same risks as Miracles re: the clock, without the ability to Entreet and just get there. But sometime the desire to Loam and grind just takes over.

Whilst blasphemy to many, I have ditched DRS for a while in testing. Unsure at present, but sometimes a squire with cute abilities is still just a squire; when for one more B you get a 5/5 flyer.

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I've played BUG Landstill for a good while before and the clock is definitely an issue. So is the fact that our best sweeper, Deed, invalidates a lot of the best hate/answers we can play (Null Rod, Library, etc.).

One reason why Delver is often better is because it's usually better to just kill them, rather than keep them from killing you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by H

I might just try that in a 20 land build. I'm not sure it'll be good though. I think if I'd go that route though, I'd want some kind of creature with some utility to find. Maybe Scavenging Ooze. Probably makes the whole deck worse though.

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The idea of the toolbox is tempting, but it seems just wrong to me. I'd only try Zenith as a fifth/sixth Goyf that can perhaps also be a Deathrite if the situation asks for it (read: against Canadian Thresh or Grave strategies). I'm not saying it's the solution to everything, but it seems Zenith is the 13th/14th creature slot with the least drawbacks, so I was curious whether anyone had already tested it before I invest time into it.

Hi! I'm looking to play BUG Delver in a local tourney, but haven't got a lot of experience with the deck aside from copying Jim Davis' recent list and doing pretty well. I'm thinking of running something like this, but it appears slightly off standard.

Instant (21)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
1x Disfigure
3x Force of Will
2x Spell Pierce
4x Stifle

Sorcery (6)
1x Hymn to Tourach
4x Ponder
1x Thoughtseize

Planeswalker (1)
1x Liliana of the Veil

Land (18)
1x Bayou
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
4x Wasteland

Creature (14)
2x Dark Confidant
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets Flip
4x Tarmogoyf

Sideboard (15)
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
2x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Marsh Casualties
1x Murderous Cut
1x Null Rod
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vendilion Clique

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I've been doing that.

19 is fine as is. Just make sure you have 4 seas instead of a fetch.

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I actually prefer the 3/2/2 split, but my list is about as greedy as it gets color-wise.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

The idea of the toolbox is tempting, but it seems just wrong to me. I'd only try Zenith as a fifth/sixth Goyf that can perhaps also be a Deathrite if the situation asks for it (read: against Canadian Thresh or Grave strategies). I'm not saying it's the solution to everything, but it seems Zenith is the 13th/14th creature slot with the least drawbacks, so I was curious whether anyone had already tested it before I invest time into it.

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I get wanting a 13th threat that also flips Delver, but I feel like Unearth and Reanimate fill that role better while not costing as much as GSZ, playing well with Hymn/Thoughtseize, and having random bonus utility like stealing an opposing value creature like Strix or Snapcaster.

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Originally Posted by edahl

Hi! I'm looking to play BUG Delver in a local tourney, but haven't got a lot of experience with the deck aside from copying Jim Davis' recent list and doing pretty well. I'm thinking of running something like this, but it appears slightly off standard.

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Your list seems like a mishmash of the Stifle build and the Hymn build and I guess I don't endorse that. I definitely don't like Liliana without the core 3-5 Thoughtseize/Hymn supporting her - a lot of her power comes from keeping opponents hellbent once she's helped stabilize the board and it's hard to get people hellbent when Liliana just takes their draw step. Also 18 lands on 3 Sea/2Trop/1 Bayou makes a BB 3-drop pretty rough.

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Originally Posted by btm10

I actually prefer the 3/2/2 split, but my list is about as greedy as it gets color-wise.



I get wanting a 13th threat that also flips Delver, but I feel like Unearth and Reanimate fill that role better while not costing as much as GSZ, playing well with Hymn/Thoughtseize, and having random bonus utility like stealing an opposing value creature like Strix or Snapcaster.



Your list seems like a mishmash of the Stifle build and the Hymn build and I guess I don't endorse that. I definitely don't like Liliana without the core 3-5 Thoughtseize/Hymn supporting her - a lot of her power comes from keeping opponents hellbent once she's helped stabilize the board and it's hard to get people hellbent when Liliana just takes their draw step. Also 18 lands on 3 Sea/2Trop/1 Bayou makes a BB 3-drop pretty rough.

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I should maybe cut the mainboard Thoughtseize and Hymn for something like a TNN and a Dimir Charm, or a TNN and a Bayou. My reasoning behind a single Liliana maindeck is that it's such a powerful effect that it can draw me out of awkward top-deck wars, as they are awkward indeed in a deck with Stifle+Daze+Waste. I don't necessarily want to curve into it, but at the same time it's not bad at all if I do. The idea is also that I can transform into more discard post board, in which case I guess I should definitely have the second Bayou and keep a second Liliana in the board.

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

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Originally Posted by Emo

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

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Maybe swap it with Liliana and swap a Trop for Bayou? I have kinda the same experience with TNN, and BB or GG is often good. 1 non-blue land doesn't seem too bad even in a deck with Daze.

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

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Originally Posted by Emo

I agree with you that Lilianna definitely is feasible if the mana base is tweaked a bit

Here is my short list of 1 of cards (many haven't been tested but just came to mind)

Lilianna (BB problem)
Eternal witness (GG problem)
Dimir charm
monastery siege
Tasigur (cmc makes him iffy)
hypnotic spectre

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Do a Sylvan Library as a 1-of before you consider Monastery Siege.

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Originally Posted by Emo

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

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A main deck Clique seems pretty nice. I'm considering cutting one bob for Liliana, have the second Liliana in the board with 3 Thoughtseizes, and add a Bayou md (upping the land count to 19 with 3 us, 3 trop, 1 bayou).

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

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Originally Posted by Jo11ygrnreefer

Why did this deck get moved out of "Decks to Beat" thread?

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There's a formula that looks at results over a specific time period and lists are promoted to and demoted from DTB based on the current survey. I don't recall the exact methodology but I'm pretty sure it is stickied in the DTB forum for your perusal.

What makes a deck to beat?

A Deck to Beat is a deck which has at least 6.25% placements over the total Top 8 slots at 33+ person tournaments in the last month's tournaments (or the last ten tournaments, whichever is greater).

Should have done some more reading lol.

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Originally Posted by Emo

I am currently running a list similar to Jim Davis, I have always loved dark confidant in this deck, but the one card I just don't like in the deck is the TNN, I feel without equipment and being a 3-drop a lot of times it just feels lackluster, Has anyone tried another creature in place of TNN or maybe a 3rd spell?

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I have the same list as jim davis on mtgo. I have mostly played my modified version lately, and I too have come to dislike True Name Nemesis. I moved the TNN to the sideboard, I figure if I need to bring it in against a removal heavy deck I can, but honestly, I might just cut it for something else if need be.

My choice to remove TNN had to do a lot with wanting a higher percentage chance to blind flip a delver. So, I basically made room for more instants or sorceries. I also don't own a Liliana of the Veil yet, but I'm working on getting one or more to test out.

This is my list that I modified, although I still have several others saved:
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
1 Flooded Strand
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Wasteland
3 Force of Will
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Disfigure
3 Dark Confidant

Sideboard

1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Thoughtseize
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Divert
1 Marsh Casualties

Please excuse the ordering of the cards, mtgo doesn't sort the names when you export your list as a text file.

If I start running into more combo decks that I already am, one more spell pierce would be added in the place of something, probably Dark Confidant or Disfigure. I really like having four Stifle, it's very handy, and having four gives it a higher chance of being effective.

i think the best thing suggested so far is the 2 of unearth/reanimate.

I'm going to test the shit outta these two cards

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Originally Posted by H

On the Hymn versus Stifle debate, I think they are opposite side's of the same coin. The deck looks to deplete an opponent of resources, Hymn as cards in hand, and Stifle mainly as mana. Both have upsides, but I choose to run Hymn mainly because I just like the card better. In addition, I think Hymn offers you a 2-1, at the risk of sometimes being dead in the late game. Since we don't much want to be in the late game, I am willing to trade that off.

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I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

This way you can also get away with playing just 1 bayou instead of 2 and more copies of tropical island making it so that you have a much easier time casting your blue spells. Stifle aside I think it is way more important for this deck to be able to cast it's blue spells than it is to cast it's black ones. Whether it's casting delver on turn 1, or casting brainstorm or ponder with spell pierce backup, or having an actual island to bounce for Daze.

I don't think it's correct running 2 bayous and 1 tropical island in the hymn versions. Yes the hymn versions need the double black while also tapping for green for goyf, but I feel like you give up stability of your mana base as well as being able to cast your more important spells. Leave hymn in the sideboard where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.
.

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I couldn't disagree more with this statement. What's Hymn bad against other than Reaninator and Dredge? Whenever I've tested the Stifle versions they've just felt underpowered compared to the Hymn versions.

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Originally Posted by drocker23

I don't agree with this statement. I think the number of decks where hymn is bad is a lot higher than the number of decks where stifle is bad. So why wreck your mana base to play a card that isn't all that good against the majority if decks anyway? I think it's better to play stifle in the main deck which can always be good at countering something decent whether it be a fetch land or just some random activation as well as pitching to force of will.

I believe hymn is better served as a sideboard card that can be brought in in the match ups that you really want it against.

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Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

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Originally Posted by H

Of the 7 Decks to Beat on this board, I'd rather have Hymn over Stifle versus 5 of them, with 1 being what I could consider a push.

ANT, UWR Delver, UR, Omni-Tell, and RUG I would rather have Hymn, although versus RUG (and probably most builds of UR), neither Stifle nor Hymn is particularly good in my experience.

Versus Miracles, Stifle has some real good applications versus Miracles, but quickly removing their in hand resources puts them in a bad spot, especially if they don't have Top or you have locked it down.

I don't want Hymn versus Lands and Stifle could help if they go for Dark Depths, but that might only postpone the inevitable.

Continuing down the list:
Sneak and Show (Hymn)
Team America (I don't know, depends on how each player's draw comes together)
Grixis Control (probably Hymn)
Blade Control (Hymn, although Stifle could deal with SFM, but not very elegantly)
Death and Taxes (Neither is great, but I guess Stifle stays better longer)
Merfolk (I don't know if either is any good here, who still plays this?)
Deathblade (Hymn, Stifle is probably a bit worse here than against other Blade decks since DRS makes mana)
Elves (Both aren't great, but Stifle probably has more utility)
MUD (Chalice@1 is an issue, so probably Hymn)
Pox (Probably Stifle, Hymn seems bad)
Reanimator (Stifle)
Maverick (Neither seems very good, I guess Stifle has utility, Hymn can put them behind in the short game though)
BUG Control (another mirror? I don't know, probably Hymn)

That makes something like 6 decks I'd rather have Hymn, 3 where it's debatable or I'm not sure, and 4 where I feel it's clearly Stifle. That puts it at 11 for Hymn, 5 for Stifle, and 4 where I'd really not be sure. Even if I am wrong on a few of there, I can't see how Hymn is "a lot worse." At worst, it's a coin flip that depends on your meta.

I'm not sure which decks you are talking about that would make the amount of decks where Hymn is bad "a lot higher" but Hymn is also often very good versus random strategies.

Don't misconstrue my meaning though, it's not bad or wrong to run Stifle. In fact, it can be quite good, but so can Hymn.

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I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

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Originally Posted by edahl

I think most of the midrange/control mathcups you mention you probably want Hymn, like Blade and BUG control, is the very reason we want Stifle. These decks want little to nothing more than to make land drops (and shuffle their Brainstorms). Stifle is, after all, a 1-mana replacement for Team America's BB Sinkhole.

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The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

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Originally Posted by H

The problem is, when hitting their lands, if they just play more, you've done nothing. Also, Stifling their SFM is pretty bad if they happen to have an equipment in their hand. I'd rather (literally) roll the dice and try to hit the TNN and/or equipment in their hand, than Stifle them and pray they don't draw a third land and just play TNN. Versus Deathblade it's even worse, since if they play an early Deathrite it makes mana denial a much worse proposition.

Again, these are my interpretations, if you feel that Stifle is better there, so be it. However, saying that Hymn is "a lot worse" doesn't really stand to reason, since Hymn is still good versus a bunch of the meta.

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Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

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Originally Posted by edahl

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

@Manipulato: Did you get occasion to Stifle the storm trigger? :)

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It´s difficult to hold up/surprise with stifle when your opponent has Duress, Cabal Therapy & Gitaxian Probe :wink:

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Originally Posted by edahl

Of course, they can draw out of mana denial, but you did gain tempo! If you Stifle their 3. land and they lay another one to tap out for TNN, Daze is live. In addition, Jace playing around Daze or Spell Pierce is that much farther away. That's why I like the 4-4-4 Daze-Stifle-Wasteland package. I would never say Hymn is "a lot worse" :) But I think the tempo gained from playing a full mana denial package, Deathrite and Delver is unprecedented.

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I don't disagree, RUG has been doing it for years and I'm not trying to hate on Stifle at all. This conversation started with me saying that Stifle and Hymn are both good, they just do things differently. Milage is also going to depend on the local meta and play-style. For me, I'd rather play more of a tap-out style, but that is my preference. I have found I win a lot more often when I play Hymn than when I don't (but I admit, I have never played Stifle in BUG).

I respect Jim Davis, he is a much better player than me and probably a much better deck-builder. However, I see real issues with his Stifle build; mainly that you have fewer ways to truly capitalize on the tempo you gain, because your Delvers don't flip as consistently as RUG's and you don't have Lightning Bolt.

I know you wouldn't say Hymn is "a lot worse" that was drocker23, :cool:

I know if seemed as if I was making the case that Hymn is better than Stifle, but that wasn't my intention at all. It was to present a theory that Hymn is at least as good as Stifle.

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Originally Posted by Manipulato

I tested the Stifle version a bit against DnT & Storm.

Against DnT Stifle is strict better and more flexible than Hymn but I lost most games against them no matter if stifle or hymn, so....

Against Storm Stifle were not really great, sure I could stifle a couple of fetches but thats it...Hymn would have won me all games...Attacking them from different angles is the way to victory.

Also the Stifle build is really more difficult to play and needs always perfect decisions and good timing which can be exhausting in longer turneys.

So I´m back on the Hymn train now.

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I disagree that Stifle is strictly better than Hymn vs DnT. Having no cantrips to smooth their draw, while DnT generates consistency through redundancy, it's still fundamentally just reliant on whatever is randomly coming off the top of their library. Second, DnT also does not generate much card advantage. When you Hymn them, you both increase the inconsistency of their deck while also reducing their long term options (by generating card advantage for yourself).

@H Haha, Stifle being more difficult to play makes consider Hymning on days where I haven't had coffee :P. That said I do miss Bolt from RUG and love this list to death http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15927&iddeck=118742

@Manipulato, yeah, thought about that just after I wrote it, heh. It does happen though!

My tourney being in a couple of hours I've more or less settled on this:

md:
1 Liliana
3 Bob
4 shaman, goyf, delver
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 force
4 ponder
4 bs
2 spell pierce
4 daze, stifle, wasteland
3 underground sea
2 trop
1 bayou
8 fetches

sb:
1 force
1 flusterstorm
2 thoughtseize
1 liliana
1 vendilion clique
1 divert
1 maelstrom pulse
1 decay
1 marsh casualties
1 toxic deluge
1 null rod
1 surgical
2 cage