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I like your list, it seems well tuned for your Meta. D+T is gettin more recognition nowadays it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
I do have a problem though, I seem to be drawing WAY more Karakas than I would like to. I mean, I am still goin x-1 at tourneys, but it seems like I should be goin x-0 instead. Anyone have some wisdom in this area?
Karakas-flood is a problem occasionally (I had one in play and two in hand when I lost my last game on wednesday), but you've gotta live with that, I suppose. It usually is Wasteland-bait number one (at least if you opp knows what he's doing, or you're not crushing his back with a Rishadan Port he needs to get rid off even more desperately), so I'm usually not that unhappy when I draw two of them. I think it's important to balance the number of copies of both Karakas and Mangara - if you're not running one as a four-of, the other probably isn't worth being run as a four-of, either. I'm a long-term advocate of the full Mangara playset, and I think it pays off playing both cards as many times as you're allowed to - if only for the fact that seeing either of them usually makes opponents cringe, for one of the combo pieces that will chew away on their way to victory is in place and waiting... :)
Just how should I be siding against Vengevine Survival? I know siding in canonists can be a method of slowing them down. MD Arbiters also help. Jötun Grunt was basically useless, should I have sided them out and had Crypt's instead?
My hategear looked like this for game 2: 3x Jötun Grunt, 3x Ethersworn Canonist, 4x Leonin Arbiter with the usual permanent removal for the mono-W build.
SB is:
3x Crypt
3x Canonist
3x Wing Shards
3x Kitchen Finks/random "Well, what else do I have anyways" slot.
2x Cataclysm
1x Jötun Grunt (2x main deck).
I really can't think of how to improve the matchup. The only thing I had success with was sticking a jitte and removing/killing Quirion Ranger/birds/hierarch and taking out his mana.
Canonist is useless. While comboing off their first spell is Rootwala and second is zero-mana ARTIFACT creature.
Yeah, that's something that I didn't remember when siding. Anyways, would 3x SB Wispmare be worth running?
Thoughts on the new spoiled card for Mirrodin Beseiged for this deck?
Mirran Crusader 1WW
Double Strike, Pro Black and Green
2/2
I think it could easily replace flickerwisp. Much better threat all around.
Thats sick! Dont think it can replace flickerwisp, since flickerwisp is very important for the tricks the deck can pull. But it can certainly replace jotun grunt I think!Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
I can't see a creature that just gets in for damage replacing either flickerwisp or grunt. Grunt is just too good to not run. Sure there are times when he lives for just a turn or two, but late game he holds down the ground and shrinks goyf, kotr, and recycles equipment to find with mystic.
Gosh, they sure have upped the bar on power for this type of critter. Since the deck is capable of fielding a Jitte often, this card just might have a spot. Double strike and Jitte are good friends. But not in the Flickerwisp spot. It is always tough to find a spot, especially with such a high cmc guy like this.
Well shrinking is nice i agree, but since this guy is protection from green he just chumps those anyway, and helps you to easily get through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
Today i made Top4 with this list:
Artifacts:
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Creatures:
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Aven Mindcensor
3 Qasali Pridemage
Enchantments:
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Ghostly Prison
Sorcery:
2 Life from the Loam
Instants:
1 Enlightened Tutor
4 Swords to Plowshares
Lands:
4 Savannah
4 Temple Garden
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wasteland
2 Forest
1 Plains
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB(mostly focused on strom/burn/gobs/zoo):
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Absolute Law
2 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Choke
5 Rounds + Top4.
1 Round G1 (Ub Merfolks)
I win the roll. Its quite easy MU preside, I opened with Ghost Quarter -> Vial (FoWed), he played Island -> Cursecatcher. Then i add Forest and massive Tarmogoyfs + Filckerwisp on his blockers in next turn 2-4. Without removal he couldn't survive. After bloking with 2 lords i StP one of them, all table in his side goes of, gg.
Side in Umezawa's Jitte, Choke, side out -> Enlightened Tutor, Life from the Loam
G2 he opened with Island->go, i keep risky hand with Horizon Canopy (only 1 land) and 2 Vials. I started Horizon Canopy -> Vial and met Spell Pierce. He played Wasteland (then screw up - I thought), but instead of Waste'ing he played Silvergill to draw (showing Lord of Atlantis). I topdeck Plains (good one) and played Arbiter. Next turn my opp played next Silvergill and miss land drop. I topdeck wasteland) and destroy his Island with quarter. Next round he waste my Canopy, after some punch from 2 Silvergills next rounds i topdeck more lands and had Goyf and Knight of Reliquary 3/3 on table (gravehate). He had Lord of Atlantis, Merow Reejerey and Cursecacher. We both was at few life's. He had to attack with all to take of all. After all i topdeck Tarmogoyf and game ends. 2-0.
1-0
2 Round was Lands/Scapeshift
Game 1: I lose the roll and he started with exploration, Fetch->Taiga Rishadan Port. I opened with Vial. This game was very long (mostly thx to stalling lands players who's know game one is his best chance to win). After some maze's of ith on table. I try to played agressivly with Goyfs/Knight of Reliquary (i had 2 on table) using then as backup plan for mazes (wasteland).Mangara was very nice here to remove Mazes from the game. He topdeck Scapeshift and win with 2 life left. (Sad).
Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog,4 Leyline of Sanctity, Pithing Needle, 3 Gaddock Teeg, Absolute Law
Side out: 4 StP, Ghostly Prison, Tabernacle, 3 Flickerwisp, Umezawa's Jitte, Mangara of Corondor.
Game 2: We had only 8 minutes left to termination, i played aggressively but couldn't fight 2 Mazes and Zuran orb even after remove'ing graveyard away (with 1 Maze and and Laom), didn't have Gaddock Teeg on table. He scapeshift for little i had leathal dmg on table to take off it. Next draw Absolute law... termination come and draw. 1-0-1
1-1
3 Round was Dredge
Game 1: I know dredge very well played it for a while. I opened very good hand with Tabernacle, StP, Goyf wasteland and Savannah. I played Savannah and pass the turn, opp played Gemstone and Imp. In this moment i recognize that i made mistake (should play wasteland but who knows that i was dredge). I played wasteland -> waste his gemstone and pass with opened Savannah for StP. He discard Troll, dredge for six (next troll, iona, bridge, Ichorid, some trash for Ichorid and amoeba), then he played a Cephalid Coloseaum and... (i was worried about Breakthrough) but he just pass after attack. I played Tabernacle and pass the turn, he put up ichorid (Sworded) dredge for more fuel next moeba in play (only one Bridge). After topdecking Loam i was safe wasted his last land and played Goyf(5/6). Few rounds later was gg.
Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog
Side out: 2 Aven Mindcensor, 1 arbiter
Game 2: Was similar but with Tormod's Crypt on table and Tabernacle on open. Wasted/Quartered to death. After playing i was talking with him to optimize his sideboard plan - that was his first try with dredge. I couldn't find answer for tabernacle. Also wrong sideboarded - he take off Flame-Kin Zelot..
2-1
4 Round German Loam (Moxes, Exploration with Knight of the Reliquary beater)
Game 1: Don't remember it good, but massive aggro with goyfs/arbiters with mana disrupt (wasteland to Maze) enough he didn't find loam (had intuition) but never had 5 mana on table.
Side in: Pithing Needle, Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog.
Side out: Tabernacle, Ghostly Prison, Fickerwisp
Game 2: Was his, no vial mull to 5 eated to death by Wastelands from Loam and Rishadan Ports.
Game 3: I made good tempo with Arbiters/Goyfs(1/2 lol) from vial with Crypt on table. I was suprised by his sideboard with Terferi's Response. But he still couldn't survive tempo. His last hope was more maze's and Glacial Chasm, I used 3 Mangaras without Karakas to break his plans and wins. 2-1
3-1
5 Round GW Survival (with Iona/Retrainer)
Game 1: Was clasical porno from Survival. He win the roll (Fetch->Forest->Hierarch). (No StP in hand) second was Survival and pass. Arbiter on table (StP).. 3rd turn i had 3 Vengevine rushing.. in 2 rounds (with another StP for blocker).
Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad vs survival GW with pride mages).
Game 2: Was asymmetrical to first, he had flood (after game i ask him about number of lands 23 is too much imo) i Sworded his bop, and blow up Survival with Qasali (locked for a while with Arbiter). After 2 Goyfs and Knight with Mangara backup he pass.
Game 3: Wasn't funny. He started with Savannah Bop i StP from Canopy, he wasted it and pass. I wasted Savannah and Vial. He miss his next land drop. Arbiter he topdeck fetch. Then eated to death by mine Loam + waste under Arbiter with Goyfs. 2-1
4-1.
Semi-finals
Round 6 Next Survival, this time Gb thought it will be Ooze..
Game 1: Was total punish to Survival. I win the flip and opened with Vial. After take off BoP and waste Bayou game was almost mine. I put arbiter from vial and qartered forest. Then Goyf/Goyf/and 2 Flickers at beginning. That was fast.. Opponent was impressed.
Side in: Tormod's Crypt, Bojuka Bog, Pithing Needle
Side out: 2 Life from the loam, Ghostly Prison (this card is bad - to costy vs survival GW with pride mage).
Game 2: Bayou-> Thoughseize take down Arbiter.(he was good scouting when i beat Survival round before). I ansewered with wasteland -> Bayou. Next turn, Fetch -> Cabal therapy take off both StP. Mine Karakas pass. He put on survival on table after droping forest and that mean mostly gg. I found Goyf on topdeck and pass. He put next land and had 3 mana. He discard Vengevine, goes for Birds and discard Fauna shaman and goes for Quirion Ranger. I didn't topdeck any thing to take of Survival and survive alfa strike from Vengevines with Shriekmaw's backup and Game 3 started. I saw Prgenitus while discarding.
I decided to didn't put Gaddock Teeg vs Orders. Maybe that was wrong.
Game 3: Was similar to Game 2 with he take off mine Arbiter with StP than, 2 BoPs then Natural Order next round to Progenitus. Couldn't do anything (poor hand after mull to 6 with 2 vials).
Bad luck with sideboard, didn't met any Storm/Burn
Comments please
I'd probably stick him in my empty 3x slot in the SB instead of Finks. He handles some aggro matchups better. I really can't find a way to fit it in otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Link to the card please. If this is real, then that would just be awsome.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
http://yfrog.com/gz9q1zj
It's on Salvation's official spoiler. I'd trust it.
Ah, also posted here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ard-are-out%21
edit: It's powerful, no doubt. Unfortunately, unlike Grunt, it only has 2 toughness and Zoo can easily burn it out when we try to equip. Sure if we slap a sword or jitte on this its an unstoppable beast but without Mother of Runes also in play it could be difficult. Now I'm really excited for the red/white sword because that basically gives this protection from all relevant colors.
I wonder how high the prices will get on those. IE: Buy on release or risk on waiting it out?
It is likely to see a reasonable amount of play in standard and extended, so I see the prices rising up quickly on this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
I got screwed on prices for Arbiter due to expecting that. I still have 60 euros of store credit from the tourney so I guess that's where that's going 4 of them, 3 for the deck and one to sit around.
I read an article that said that you can pretty much expect rares to taper off at 7-10$ ever since they printed mythics...he had a whole list of cards to back up his claim...damn i can't find the article...Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguinizer
As for the crusader, what about removing Orings? i found them to be the weakest cards in the deck...
I think both of these are on point.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjumbo03
I'd agree it's probably safe to assume they won't exceed $10, or not by very much. Examples of post-Mythic rares: Noble Hierarch, Knight of the Reliquary, Ratchet Bomb, Fauna Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, Zen Fetches, etc etc... most of the competative rares have topped at $15 when they're featured in a Flavor of the Month list or are being used in a bunch of formats, and can be found as low as $5-7 when they're less popular.
I'd definitely test a couple of these in the O-Ring slot of Mono-White lists. I don't like the idea of boosting the deck's curve and O-Ring is significantly weaker than Mangara or Flickerwisp. The meta may shift some though with Dec 20th, kind of hard to envision a post-Mirrodin Besieged list without knowing if Survival will still be legal in the format.
Hmm, the extra 3 removal spells is nice and you can use it to get rid of Jaces and so on. Anyways, I'll try it out in that slot. Seems like as good an idea as any.
The crusader does appear to be deadly with a SoFaI or Jitte on it....
EDIT: I am a little worried since the Crusaders have the same Protections that the missing Swords would have. I hope WotC didn't make these guys to replace the last two Equipments in the set.
The crusader could be the new beater. If you don't specially need Jotun Grunt in your meta, I'd swap them.
However, this will need testing...
I'm just going to test it in place of O-Ring and will move them into the SB for matchups where you need general non-creature removal. I'm interested in how it'll turn out.
Honnestly I would just totally revise the deck.
I mean without the combat tricks with damage on the stack, the all the tricks we have are:
vial @3 + flickerwhisp for shinanigans, and sometimes stonecloaker (and if you play it resetting jotun grunt)
and karrakas + mangara (+ flickerwhisp/stonecloaker)
This might sound stupid, but maybe we should try the weeny+equipment approach (max out on stoneforge mystic's, ad some things that like equipment, maybe geddon and cataclysm...)
Just throwing it out there, but if you ask me, this deck is becoming less and less taxing and more and more dead...
Yeah, esp. because it's working so well!Quote:
Originally Posted by overseer1234
In German, we call this "verschlimmbessern". Now I'm perfectly aware that most of you won't be able to decipher what that means, but that's OK, as long as you're not doing it! ;) Don't fix what ain't broken.
While you are right about, dont touch a running system...Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
His point is valid besides the totally revise the deck...because he didnt really suggest that ^^
The deck is already pretty equipment heavy, playing the full set of stoneforges isnt uncommon anymore and jeah...it is a good idea because the card is broken and with vial it allows to play nearly every card in your deck uncounterable...which is sick.
On the other hand...never drop Flickerwisp for it ...best card in the deck atm if you ask me.
I'm running Stoneforge Mystic as a 4-of in D&T since the card was printed, simply because it's bonkers-good. It also provides the card advantage that the archetype has been craving for as long as it had existed, although in a somewhat limited (yet definitely relevant) form. The problem with further development of the deck, imho, is not what to include, but what to take out for it. 2/2 double strike and double protection for 3 of course is crazy, but I don't see what to cut. None of the critters that are agreed basically upon to be in the deck are to be questioned imho, and I'm having a hard time envisioning Mirran Crusader outright replacing anything.
What I'd really like to see is the Sword of Something and Something Else cycle completed. Protection from white and from red (I'd also be happy to see this on a decent critter that we can stick into D&T) would really up the deck's power level in my opinion.
Well, protection from white and from red would make our matchup against zoo much more favorable. mmmmmm...putting that hypothetical sword on the mirran crusader would be pretty neat.
As for what to take out for the crusader...well. My first guess (without any test) is that we can cut an Avenger and a Grunt. Those two are the beaters, and Crusader is a beater. I might be wrong, but I don't think that you would like to see more than 1 on the opening 7, so as 2-of (at least for the moment) seems perfect.
Once you have a smoothly functioning deck, this is ALWAYS the problem. See sig.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
@Lorgalis, I like that idea. Avenger's got Flying, but Crusader has evasion too. Avenger's got Vigilance, but Double Strike works even better with the equipment.
Likewise, Grunt may be seen as less and less important to have huge numbers of with Survival allegedly on its last legs, with Reanimator nerfed by Mystic Tutor, etc. There's still Zoo as a major player that likes big yards, and land/loam decks. The continued importance of Grunt depends on how the meta pans out in the new year.
The one problem to be aware of is cutting 2-drops for 3-drops. Yes we want the Vial to end up at 3, but we need to stay alive on the trip there, and sometimes you want to or need to hardcast a critter. That said, I wouldn't cut Flickerwisp to less than 4, or Mangara to less than 3. Avenger, ORing, and Grunt do seem like the best bets.
Well, I don't play with O-Ring, so I can't cut that. :p
While it is indeed a good card, I don't see the Crusader being more than a 2-of. But time and testing will tell...
I think the only two creatures that I would look to replace with the new crusader would be the two main beaters (Avenger & Grunt) but first lets look at what is gained/lost. Keep in mind the synergies with the rest of the deck.
Avenger:
flying
2cc
Grunt:
graveyard
2cc
4 power
Crusader:
doublestrike
evasion
3cc
with Jitte -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage first attack, 16 damage second attack!
with any sword -> Crusader is way better - 8 damage per attack plus twice the triggers
So if we are already going the Mystics route, I'm sad to say that maybe Avenger is out of the list at this point. It's not relevant enough to be SB material and if it doesn't win nearly as fast, I'd say get rid of it.
Crusader seems really good. If you have equipment. He still gets removed easily enough with burn, or stp. If I were to run him, I wouldn't be taking out grunt, or avenger. I would drop some of the arbiters I have in the main for him, and I wouldn't run 4.
What would your list end up looking like? You probably got rid of the Harriers/Forge Tenders for Arbiter, and you're replacing Arbiters with Crusaders. Wouldn't the result start to look a little expensive in terms of mana investment? Perhaps you made other changes and didn't end up with such a top-heavy result. I'm just curious. =)
Well, that's kind of the problem with replacing 2 drops with 3 drops (let alone 1 drops with 3 drops). Already, the first 3-4 turns are pretty dicey for this deck. I might look at front loading 1-2 drops with removal and control elements rather than dudes. Maybe your dude curve begins at 2 with Mystic and Grunt (this guys is so relevant in so many matchups). I know the tendency is to have some of these protection guys (and tappers in some cases) as MD but I really disagree with that. If you're playing vs anything that is not red or only uses red as acceleration or wishes, you basically have an overcosted vanilla.
I might just have my 1-drops as Swords, Vial & Mana Tithe and 2-drops as Grunt, Jitte, Mystic. I don't know, Tithe is kind of spotty but it has been amazing early game. Late game it's hit or miss but by that point, you want to win with your beater.
No mother of runes?Quote:
Originally Posted by android
Edit: Sorry didn't see that you didn't want protection guys...haha but still mother is so full of win...it holds off attackers and provides protection plus vial @ 1 does something...
No, I do agree that Mother is really good but you have to look at when she becomes relevant.
The guy you want to protect ideally is vialed in turn 4 (attacking turn 5). Now, I guess you can have her sitting around chumping as early as turn 2 (if you missed your vial drop) or 3. I would argue that Mother should never warrant more than a couple spots MD.
I know this deck archetype allows for a variety of play-styles so it's hard for me to say what would be good for one list over another without seeing how you want to win and how you intend to get there.
Biggest problem facing this deck is surviving long enough to win. Then it's not an instant win so you need to push it through. Traditionally that meant controlling the mid game. Most of the utility that prevents an auto-loss to decks like combo, come in from the SB. The deck has a great game vs. anything using the graveyard and post SB does pretty well vs. red decks.
Another tournament today, went 2-1 versus Elves Combo and two times GUw Survival, see http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...postcount=2944 for details. Arbiter once again proves its worth.
I was one of the first (if not the first) players to permanently adapt Mother of Runes into my list back many, many moons ago, and I think it's agreed-upon that she's one of the best, if not the best, critter one-drop available for the archetype. She's a creature that must be answered by pretty much anything but combo (and she can also get those decks into trouble, given the right partner in crime), or will provide lots of virtual card advantage. Everyone running D&T without a full playset of her really is missing an important building block of the deck.
Wow, NO. I can agree that Mom is a strong card. BUT like most decks there are more controlling versions and more aggro ones. I myself am running a very aggro D+T list, Moms only slow it down. In my meta I need to punch out more damage as quickly as possible, control their mana, and get the attackers through. Without Moms, I have been going x-1 and x-0 in my local. Had I been using here, I would not be making moneys on a weekly basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by colo
On to Mirran Crusader. The dude has potential, that much is sure. If your deck can support running O-Ring in the SB, then he might be able to replace it. I will say this, Doublestrike is something I keep my eye on, and after using Kor Duelist to some success I look forward to trying out Crusader.
Hi guys. Before you all go switching out Avengers and Grunts for these new Crusaders, ask yourself how often find yourself attacking with an equipped creature and not winning. If I am at that stage in the game, I have it pretty well wrapped up even if I am sending in Mother of Runes with a weapon in her hands. The extra damage is Timmy win-more. The protection from green is the most important part of that equation imo. Any discussion on swapping cards should have that feature as this creature's primary focus.
Here's my perceived problem with the Crusader: It dies to a lightning bolt and it is too slow to stop 3 V.Vs on turn 3. So where is the time to need it most?