Miracle Control

There have now been several mentions in the past few days by people bringing in Mentors against combo decks because it gives you a faster clock. I do not understand this. Speeding up your clock while still being slower than the opposition doesn't seem like it would help.

The race isn't to kill them before they kill you, it's a race to kill them before they Decay your Balance.

I play Mentor against everyone. It beats other Mentors and Mancers, stalls Goyfs and Tasigurs, asks 'Terminus or die', and kills really quickly without having to have a load of lands in play.

But tapping out against combo on turn three seems rather dangerous.

I think bringing in mentor in a combo match is just wrong. you tap 3 mana on your turn and cant leave up counterspell or mana for spinning top multiple times for example. Remember: 3 mana is a lot since most of the time you board out lands against combo. The only combo deck i could imagine bringing him in is UR omnitell to fight pyromancers. In combo matches EOT snapcaster or clique is much safer and wins you the game as well.
From my experience Mentor is a late game card which you use after u terminused the board away twice. In the earlier turns it dies to bolt, stp, decay without any use. correct me if im wrong, but most of the time you need 3 spells to make Mentor survive a bolt considering that you board out forces. Even if you get one or two tokens, those are used as blockers and wont win you the game.
His biggest strength is that he cant be pierced, flusterstormed or reb'd and therefore is great in the mirror. but generally most of the time an eot entreat wins you the game more quickly and more safely.

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Originally Posted by owerbart

Is Esper Miracles still a thing? I kinda want to play Miracles IRL (I play it from time to time in Cocka) but I only have Tundras and U. Seas, only one Volcanic. I do have a Moat tho.

I've heard that there's like 4 variations of Miracles, anyone can give a brief outlook on each one?

Or should I just build Deathblade

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Esper Miracles was not a thing, most likely never will.

No one can make you play/build anything. If you're not sure between death blade and miracles, test these 2 decks on Cocka more. Any control decks including Miracles require patience and the learning curve takes time. Everyone has preference in play style and you probably have an inclination already.

I don't know which 4 you're referring to, I'll just list the obvious four versions:

Reid Duke's MD creature-less: Tries to abuse Dig and Jace to no end.

GP Kyoto winner YUTA TAKAHASHI's legend-ponder: Best of both Ponder and Legend build, skewed Mana base to include Wasteland against heavy Omni-tell meta. Modification required for generic meta.

Lossett's Legend: Heavy favor in the mirror and combo MU.

SCHONEGGER (ein)'s Ponder: Heavy favor against all fair decks, not so much against combo game 1.

Izzet Staticaster and Sulfur Elemental to make tokens cry

Really, I do not see how combo is a problem.
They run Decay for Cb? We drop Canonist and Meddling Mage on Infernal Tutor/Abrupt Decay/Show and Tell

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Originally Posted by oarsman

There have now been several mentions in the past few days by people bringing in Mentors against combo decks because it gives you a faster clock. I do not understand this. Speeding up your clock while still being slower than the opposition doesn't seem like it would help.

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That's what I'm saying. The wizards all interact while providing a clock; Mentor just does damage. I was trying to figure out earlier where else people were even running them. Nobody seems to be talking about where the card shines except the mirror.

I know it's not the same of Karakas, but we would save our Meddling Mage and Snapcaster Mage with Riptide Laboratory.

we chump block while reanimating all our cantrips.in the graveyard

Poron, doesn't the fact that it only produces colourless mana cause a lot of problems with Entreat/Judgment/Jace? It's the same issue with Academy Ruins.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Esper Miracles was not a thing, most likely never will.

No one can make you play/build anything. If you're not sure between death blade and miracles, test these 2 decks on Cocka more. Any control decks including Miracles require patience and the learning curve takes time. Everyone has preference in play style and you probably have an inclination already.

I don't know which 4 you're referring to, I'll just list the obvious four versions:

Reid Duke's MD creature-less: Tries to abuse Dig and Jace to no end.

GP Kyoto winner YUTA TAKAHASHI's legend-ponder: Best of both Ponder and Legend build, skewed Mana base to include Wasteland against heavy Omni-tell meta. Modification required for generic meta.

Lossett's Legend: Heavy favor in the mirror and combo MU.

SCHONEGGER (ein)'s Ponder: Heavy favor against all fair decks, not so much against combo game 1.

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There's also the old Helm of Obedience/RIP builds, but I haven't seen anyone playing those in a long time. A few people are testing Thopter/Sword as a kill condition that doesn't get disrupted in the ways that most Miracle kills do, but that's still a relatively new experiment.

yes, you're right.
May be for those who are playing Cavern of Soul, it might be tested in that spot..

Karakas best card of the deck. It's just incredible how many cheats you can do with it and Cavern of Souls (which was a great call, thank you)..

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

The race isn't to kill them before they kill you, it's a race to kill them before they Decay your Balance.

I play Mentor against everyone. It beats other Mentors and Mancers, stalls Goyfs and Tasigurs, asks 'Terminus or die', and kills really quickly without having to have a load of lands in play.

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Combo decks with AD are already good MUs.

Why do you care about Goyfs and Tasigurs? Just turn them into farmers or tuck them.

If we always had access to the exact cards we need, we'd be playing Belcher. We want as many of our cards to be good before we're winning as possible. Entreat is bad until it kills them, and even when it's killing them, is vulnerable to more things going wrong than a 3-mana Creature. Mentor is good well before we kill them, and can be cast way earlier. It also doesn't require Brainstorms and Tops to be good, they just make it better.

So you are trying to tell me that 4 swords+3 snapcaster+4 terminus+(2-3 Jace) isnt enough too survive long enough until you entreat the angels for the win? :laugh: :laugh:

why dont you actually provide us with you latest "fairly successful" list? That way i can understand why its so overpowered or is it super secret tech?

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

If we always had access to the exact cards we need, we'd be playing Belcher. We want as many of our cards to be good before we're winning as possible. Entreat is bad until it kills them, and even when it's killing them, is vulnerable to more things going wrong than a 3-mana Creature. Mentor is good well before we kill them, and can be cast way earlier. It also doesn't require Brainstorms and Tops to be good, they just make it better.

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Actually, that's technically not true. Mentor's advantage is gradual over 2 or more turns; a non-lethal Entreat for 2 Angels is still a tremendous pressure. This is especially true in the SB games when time becomes an issue. Sure you can sit there and make more monk tokens, as long as your opponent can block non-flying creatures and soak up rest of the damages, you are even more likely to reach a draw.

Mentor really is just the next logical step once you have committed to Cavern, I give you that.

Both Angel and Mentor will die to Abrupt Decay, the vulnerability isn't all that different, don't see that as an argument.



On a separate note, the recent trend really is about Cavern. Once you are running it, you open yourself to lots of pros and cons. Lossett has already addressed all the pros: guaranteed hand disruption via clique, edge in the mirror. Cavern + Karakas + Legendary Wizards = combo.

Here's my issue with that: Again, you're dancing, or whatever you want to call it, with the board state. This goes against the Ponder-cantrips philosophy. Another problem is that you are now even Weaker against RUG Delver and Vial-tribal-Wasteland decks like Goblin and DnT. These decks don't care much about the uncounterability, and you might just need that Cavern to be the White or Blue source you used to run (Tundra) for that precious removal or Brainstorm stuck in your hand.

If you are committed to that Cavern + Karakas route, you're pretty much sold on Legend Miracles. That means you have to operate even faster, harder to avoid draws.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Both Angel and Mentor will die to Abrupt Decay, the vulnerability isn't all that different, don't see that as an argument.

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I disagree. Decay destroys ONE mentor but NOT ALL angels. In the BG/x MUs you usually entreat for 4+. you would have to chain a bunch of instants in order to get something good enough out of mentor.

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Originally Posted by decan

I disagree. Decay destroys ONE mentor but NOT ALL angels. In the BG/x MUs you usually entreat for 4+. you would have to chain a bunch of instants in order to get something good enough out of mentor.

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I'd argue, if you have time to Entreat for 6 mana, you're already pretty set in the BGx matchup. Two monk tokens is usually pretty good.

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Originally Posted by Lormador

I don't know whom you're asking, but when the subject turns to the worst card in the deck, I think that dubious honor belongs to Council's Judgment. I understand how necessary this function is in the deck and how the card makes the deck better, but it's clunky even in the matchups where it's most needed. I don't like stressing my mana against DnT to cast this thing, but I need to do it if that's the way the deck has given me to kill Aether Vial or Batterskull. Neither does the fact that it doesn't target become useful that much. TNN is pretty easy for this deck to kill. Lingering Souls was tougher.

As clunky as it is, running Vindicate is too horrible to contemplate so I guess I should be grateful this option exists. The deck is so wonderful that I feel weird saying that any card in it is the worst one.

DTT is great though, I can't imagine going back to the days when I played without it. It's the perfect pressure spell when I'm winding up for the turn that will put away the game, or help me claw back into one that's been getting away from me. Jace would often be awkward in a lot of those places, a 4 mana Brainstorm basically.

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You could just play Cunning Wish and go grab Wear//Tear then flash it back with Snapcaster, and on that note, I have no idea why people are not running 4 SCM, especially with the Cavern plan some decks are gravitating towards. Since my SB has some flexibility I also have Riptide Lab. (SB) in there to grind people out.

I don't like DTT and cards that mess with the top of my library trying for 'value'. Ponder's are cheaper for library manipulation and can be cast T1 to go find your countertop / lands. I don't think Miracles wants to be playing DTT at all, but YMMV.

On Council's...I do think it's necessary even if you run Cunning Wish as there are some problem permanents that we have a hard time answering if they resolve G1. Trust, me, it's real worth it to get WW if the alternative is losing to SoFaI, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance (depending on the state of the game, 3 is generally 'safe' to get resolved), etc.

Plus, CJ also serves another important, but less flashy role. We lack in 3 CMC cards, which in some MU's, are our most important spot (e.g. Omni-Tell/Lands/etc.).

What I'd like to do is try and find room for a Spell Snare in the main. Lists are so tight...

Entreat vs Bug is almost the worst.

It gets Spell Pierced, Dazed, Flusterstormed and its tokens can be Pernicious Deeded or Maelstrom Pulsed.

Keranos and Mentor are stellar there.. if you expect many BUG, Karakas is your best card to save your Cliques

there are so many singleton silver bullets in this deck (Karakas, Cavern, Venser, Keranos, Canonist, Sulfur Elemental, Staticaster) that DTT is always good to see here

I'm really thinking about the second. mm

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Originally Posted by Poron

there are so many singleton silver bullets in this deck (Karakas, Cavern, Venser, Keranos, Canonist, Sulfur Elemental, Staticaster) that DTT is always good to see here

I'm really thinking about the second. mm

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Don't.