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Bruh
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I don't know how to respond to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Dromoka should just be Sigarda.
Also, all walkers and no Standstill makes Matt a dull boy.
That list looks definitely weird, and that means that it is amazing. I bet that it's very fun to pilot.
Anyways, I have been playing a good lot of PW lists after Arian posted his in June/July and I have to say that I don't think a heavy PW approach is a winning one. It's the funniest and most enjoyable approach to the archetype in my opinion, but my conclusion is that the core of the deck only needs a "supporting" PW (new nissa) that improves what we do well already (drop giant dudes and recur dead giant dudes).
We only want *multiple* walkers against miracles basically, because against creatures rhino tusk Dromoka titans are the best already, but even then I noticed that they can (and will) win out of nowhere due to entreat or the infinite answers they have to literally everything in their colors.
The best walker against miracles in my experience was big Sorin (and Vraska, which I also played..........) because he could kill jace.
But after a lot of play testing, I eventually established that the most "unfair" card against miracles is tsunami, it literally is the only sort of I win button in the late game because it literally wins on the spot. They have to have mana open on the spot or otherwise they can't remove the effects of the sorcery afterwards. Instead planeswalkers are slow (except new nissa, again) and give them time to entreat or find something to remove our threats which is very very annoying.
I played every good PW in junk colors but the only one I'm currently running is nissa because she instantly gives a 5/5 haste (good against control and gives a protective 5/5 against smasher and goyf) and can regrow a dude, the girl is underrated in my opinion.
E. I can't talk about blue walkers, jace seems very good in the control match up.
Walkers are a trap, you're playing a GSZ deck. Play to your strengths. If you so desperately want a walker, take a catch all like Karn or Ugin.
Diversity in threats is a strength.Quote:
Originally Posted by bruizar
I wholeheartedly agree, but note that I was talking about a *heavy* PW approach. I like the idea of strong creatures, necessary rhino life gain AND a support role oriented planeswalker. Nissa is our girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
GSZ is the reason to play the deck, and the reason I will always play Dromoka over the baneslayers or the non green titans. Walkers are not fetchable and shall not be the main focus of the deck, just a happy little bonus that improves the consistency of what we do well already.
Now the real question is if Atraxa changes this.
I still have never been impressed by Rhinos. I can see the use of a single one, for a threat/stabilizer that's cheaper than Thragtusk and carries a Sword well because of trample. But running more than that just looks like it's dedicating a ton of slots to matchups we already win, and losing out on removal and card advantage for the matchups we actually have trouble with.
I also agree, infact I am no longer playing more than 2 max rhinos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
I've been working on an Abzan Nicfit list with a friend of mine for a while now. Could use some constructive criticism about how to finish off the deck. Please note that the numbers that show ranges (ie, 0-3 or 1-4) are places where I'd like some notes about what direction would be best. I may be under or over 60 in the MD or under/over 15 in the main.
It seems to me that this deck should a high win %, if built properly, against any fair deck. But, there's a dozen decks that do that. How do we build this main and sb such that it breaks ever versus control and wins in the post board. How do we build it such that it breaks even in post board games versus combo?
Cmc 0
1 Dryad Arbor
Cmc 1
4 Veteran Explorer
3-4 Cabal Therapy
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1-3 Sensei's Divining Top
0-3 Swords to Plowshares vs Path to Exile
Cmc2
3-4 Abrupt Decay
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Flayer
1 Qasali Pridemage
0-1 Gaddock Teeg
Cmc 3
1 Courser or Kruphix
1-2 Eternal Witness*
1 Tireless Tracker
0-1 Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse
2-3 Pernicious Deed
0-2 Liliana of the Veil
0-1 Toxic Deluge
0-1 Kitchen Finks
Cmc 4
2-3 Siege Rhino
0-1 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
Cmc 5
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
0-1 Thragtusk
0-1 The Gitrog Monster
LANDS
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1-2 Plains
0-1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
Sideboard
0-2 Slaughter Games vs 0-2 lost legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pithing Needles
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Trinisphere*
2 Duress
1 Null Rod
As a side note, I've been toying with the red splash idea. Mostly, this was because of the idea that our combo matchup can be so bad and running slaughter games can be a life saver if you can get to 4 mana. Blood moon has also been a possibility.
Recently I saw a list, that I wasn't huge fan of, that had two intereating card choices. It splashed blue for Atraxa, Praetor's Voice and Leovold, Emissary of Trest
I appreciate your thoughts.
I mostly have questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Why 4 Forest?
Why a Reclamation Sage in the SB when you already run a Qasali Pridemage in the MB?
Why have spotremoval in the SB, to what end?
In general - what's your thinking behind the odd choices? What do you think they do that you need to improve certain MUs?
Your list seems rather unfocused.
I would think that 8 walkers demands some number of Oath of Nissa. That way you don't have to have a fragile landbase to support the tougher-to-cast ones.
Two things I noticed from a glance- running Dryad Arbor and Deluge/Deed are non-bos, you'll wasteland yourself to clean up the board. And you can't really afford to run Gaddock Teeg mainboard in a deck that runs 4x GSZ. It's a fine sideboard card, but turning off all of your Zeniths is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Not sure I like Gitrog in your five-drop slot. I mean sure, it generates card advantage on a 6/6 body for 5, but I'd rather have Nissa, Vital Force in that slot. It's not a zenith target, but all of her abilities are relevant. Grim Flayer is some interesting spice though- but I don't see the appeal as a Zenith target personally, which is going to be how you'll get it more often than not with it being a one-of. I'd rather naturally curve into a flayer to set up your next few draws rather than Zenith for one.
And I dont think a Junk Fit list breaks even against combo unless you put like 4x Thoughtseize, 4x Hymn and 2-3x Surgical Extractions in your board. And even then you still lose to the good ol' Turn 1 Emrakul that can still happen on the draw.
Arbor + Deed/Deluge is fine as long as you run Meren and Diabolic Intent.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthfulcake
All the above stuff is at least slightly questionable.Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
You only want Dryad Arbor if you're playing Meren.
Play 4 Cabal Therapy unless you want to lose to STP and combo decks.
You need 2 tops minimum, run 3 unless you have a good reason. There aren't any good substitutes in Abzan colours (Library is okay but don't run more than 1)
You need some number of Swords/Paths, or you lose to Lands and other decks that make big creatures. Run Path if you consider your clock to be more important than your DnT matchup.
No need for 4 decays unless Miracles/Delver is absolutely everywhere. You have Swords to make up your removal numbers.
Grim Flayer doesn't really do what the deck needs. If you want an agressive CA guy, play Tireless Tracker.
Teeg is fine, swap between side and main depending on your meta.
Courser is pretty unimpressive unless you see way too much Burn.
1 Witness is enough, you have Zenith.
Liliana is pretty crap without more graveyard interaction. Therapy is not enough.
Deluge can swap in for the third Deed if you run lots of noncreature permanents and are more worried about midrange than aggro.
Finks are a sideboard option if you're facing down a ton of fast aggro.
Rhino is pretty much straight up better than Huntmaster if you have access to white mana.
Titania is awful unless you're building around her at least a bit (i.e. running Sylvan Safekeeper).
Always play Thragtusk unless you have a good reason not to.
Gitrog is a 6/6 and doesn't do much else. If you see a ton of Eldrazi, swap him for Glissa. If you don't, just cut him, he's not good anywhere else.
A few others have hit important points, I would like to point out further that you shouldn't be considering Lily of the Veil. She's not great in Junk Fit, because you don't want to be discarding threats and you're not running cards that synergize with her like Modern Abzan does (Lingering Souls, etc.).Quote:
Originally Posted by ClimbGneiss
Lily is better suited for decks like Punishing Fit (or even Sneak with Groves/PFire) because it synergizes with PFire when you're plusing her.
Solid advice. I would also like to point out 3 Deed is definitely the sweet spot. The card is too good to cut down to 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
the list was thrown together but oath was considered. deed makes it lose a lot of its allure.Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
As for the viability of the deck, I am not hopeful. I am just biding time while leo and atraxa lose price online so I can work on more competitive lists.
The downside of Oath dying to Deed is somewhat mitigated by the fact that it replaces itself. The rest of the text is really just gravy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I didn't think of the Meren/Arbor synergy, that does offset the issue. Plus I can't argue with the value train of Meren ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Admittedly, I just really don't like Dryad Arbor as a card in general, I've played it a few times and was never happy to see the damn thing. I understand the upsides as a free elvish mystic and GSZ for 0, but I think Nic Fit has plenty of adequate ramp already.
Looking at the "current" Scapewish versions of the deck (e.g. this and this) I want to say that the manabase looks terrible! How can this be consistent? I tested a few games and afterwards did just some random starthand peeking - the number of times the starthand lacked reasonable mana was too high!
I do not think that playing a PFire package is worth to drop ALL fetchlands - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally I want to state that the whole Burning Wish package is a ton of fun but in my experience just helps to improve G1 against Miracles by providing Access to Slaughter Games.
I do really think that the deck needs a rework, and I'm planning to come up with one.
Are there any more recent approaches to tackle the current meta (especially including Eldrazis) with this deck?