Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
Looking at the "current" Scapewish versions of the deck (e.g.
this and
this) I want to say that the manabase looks
terrible! How can this be consistent? I tested a few games and afterwards did just some random starthand peeking - the number of times the starthand lacked reasonable mana was too high!
I do not think that playing a PFire package is worth to drop ALL fetchlands - but please correct me if I'm wrong.
Additionally I want to state that the whole Burning Wish package is a ton of fun but in my experience just helps to improve G1 against Miracles by providing Access to Slaughter Games.
I do really think that the deck needs a rework, and I'm planning to come up with one.
Are there any more recent approaches to tackle the current meta (especially including Eldrazis) with this deck?
Burning Wish also lets you run 5 virtual copies of Scapeshift while not having your hand clogged with them anywhere near as frequently.
Running Punishing Fire is IMO not worth it, mainly because it's at its best against the decks you should already beat, and it ruins the manabase pretty badly.
IMO you should drop the Groves for a more stable manabase, and run Kolaghan's Command in those slots instead. If you see a lot of Eldrazi, you're probably screwed no matter what because Warping Wail counters all your good spells, but multiple Thragtusks are probably your best bet.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Scapeshift is barely competitive in modern and the back up plan is not realistic.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Scapeshift is barely competitive in modern and the back up plan is not realistic.
I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.
I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.
EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.
I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.
EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.
I think his point is that the card Scapeshift isn't good enough for Modern at the moment because of the speed of the format (TitanBreach is the better deck by performance). Legacy is considerably faster than it was when Scapewish was strong. The reason people are moving to different builds is because Scapeshift requires you to be at least at turn 5 (usually much later) in order to end the game. With the way the format looks, this is too late generally since the list also has to play many lands to guarantee the consistency of Scapeshift.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Scapeshift is a very powerful effect which does reliably end games. However it has almost no utility unless it's scoring lethal, and it applies pressure to the mana base pretty badly.
- You have ~2 cards you never ever want to draw (Valakuts)
- You have another ~1 card that's completely useless unless you're going off (Scapeshift)
- Burning Wish is pretty slow given the current speed of Legacy
- Jund doesn't have a particularly good backup beatdown plan, especially when your manabase is strained so you can't play Punishing Fire safely.
- A lot of hate that combo decks get to ignore is good against us. Namely, Wasteland.
I don't think there's a way to get Scapeshift to a fast enough speed to combo off competitively against most enemies. That means we're going to need to go down a more midrange plan with the combo as a backup. I'm tempted to say that zero Scapeshifts main is the right choice, and just playing a Burning Wish midrange/control deck most of the time.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Played Sneaky-fit yesterday at the LGS, with pretty much a stock list except I subbed scooze for tusk, and a 3rd top for 2nd DRS. 3 Tops has always felt like the right number for me.
Played Miracles (2-0) punishing fire vs jace and gideon was just back breaking
Infect: (0-2) mulled multiple times both games to find business, and never felt like I was in it in either game.
Bug delver (2-1) was tight all 3 games but a resolved sneak is basically gg.
U/B Reanimator: (1-2) Collective Brutality is a beating vs all our GSZable answers. One of the games saw this play Kill my DRS take my GSZ and drop a Gbanned in the yard, so broken, that needs the ban hammer.
Thoughts; I never saw Meren, I like her but I believe I sided her out every match, as she is slow, and if they do bring in Yard hate, at best it is a 3/4 for 4, Maybe a Tireless Tracker to fill that spot? Also I like Sidisi but with no way to tutor for it, it just seems like a 5 mana tutor. To the Slaughter was fantastic vs reanimator, and zombie fishes, I am going to comtemplate playing a 2nd in the board. I am definitely going to be bringing out this list again.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emuhell
I guess you meant to say it's barely competitive in Legacy... well we are not working on Nic Fit because of its competitivity.
I think that the deck should be Nic Fit with an "Oops, I win" in it - just like SneakFit currently is.
EDIT: of course we want to raise the competitivity.
Please, don't question my loyalty to making this deck better.
Sneak attack will likely win you the game but it also inherently works with your deck of large creatures and its acceptable to jam it on 4 mana.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
I think his point is that the card Scapeshift isn't good enough for Modern at the moment because of the speed of the format (TitanBreach is the better deck by performance). Legacy is considerably faster than it was when Scapewish was strong. The reason people are moving to different builds is because Scapeshift requires you to be at least at turn 5 (usually much later) in order to end the game. With the way the format looks, this is too late generally since the list also has to play many lands to guarantee the consistency of Scapeshift.
Agreed with most you say, albeit I think titanshift is more consistent than breach but that is sacrificed for a 1 turn faster. Another thread. haha
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Navsi
Scapeshift is a very powerful effect which does reliably end games. However it has almost no utility unless it's scoring lethal, and it applies pressure to the mana base pretty badly.
- You have ~2 cards you never ever want to draw (Valakuts)
- You have another ~1 card that's completely useless unless you're going off (Scapeshift)
- Burning Wish is pretty slow given the current speed of Legacy
- Jund doesn't have a particularly good backup beatdown plan, especially when your manabase is strained so you can't play Punishing Fire safely.
- A lot of hate that combo decks get to ignore is good against us. Namely, Wasteland.
I don't think there's a way to get Scapeshift to a fast enough speed to combo off competitively against most enemies. That means we're going to need to go down a more midrange plan with the combo as a backup. I'm tempted to say that zero Scapeshifts main is the right choice, and just playing a Burning Wish midrange/control deck most of the time.
That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.
I think Rubble's thought process on tsunami is correct but making it resolve is the uphill battle. (not giving him credit for tsunami since it wasn't him, just good thinking)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Collective Brutality is great. I guess it's another point in favor of discard spells, since Therapy and Thoughtseize go under it.
To The Slaughter is great, although I'm currently leaning towards Pithing Needle in that slot. Still works against lands, Miracles and Griselbrand decks, but easier on the mana and helps vs DnT instead of helping kill Goyfs and Anglers.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.
Again, this is an issue of speed. We simply don't have enough room for all the cards we need in Scapewish to go off quickly AND not die. There's something to be said about theorycrafting a list that focuses completely on the ramp and combo, but it likely will not have any other plan and this is a format where looping Wastelands exists and Blood Moon is more relevant than ever.
The other issue I see is that Scapewish was strongest in an era of RUG Delver, Maverick, Miracles, Goblins, and Sneak Show. Shardless and Deathblade allowed it to stay strong for a while but Miracles and Shardless are the only decks that survived from that era.
Collective Brutality is a real card. Anyone who is thinking about it should give it a try. It's seriously broken.
You can ask Arian how he feels about To the Slaughter. He was very happy with it.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Well, I had typed up a really long tournament report from my weekly last night, but I didn't copy it before submitting and the forum logged me out. Here's the short version because I'm not typing that all over again.
For reference, here is my list:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Siege Rhino
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Kaya, Ghost Assassin
1 Nissa, Vital Force
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Silvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
SB:
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Leyline of the Void
1 Krosan Grip
1 Karakas
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Liliana, the Last Hope (Usually is Engineered Plague or Dread of Night, wanted to try it out)
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
R1: Loss to Tin Fins (1-2)
Game one I'm able to beat down before they can put together their combo through Deathrite. Game two I whiff on therapy and he combos. Game three I hit Goryo's Vengeance on therapy but he just rips another one blind off the top and wins.
R2: Win vs. Pros-Bloom (2-0)
Game one he isn't able to assemble the combo through decay and random beats including a Rhino. If he hadn't ramped me with his own Veteran Explorer I might have lost. Game two I disrupt him long enough to get Kaya and Liliana going with Tracker for attacks and close out the game.
R3: Win vs Miracles (2-0)
Game one my opponent invests early in Venser + Karakas but I'm able to disrupt it with Deed + Swords. He's fairly dry at this point and I test him with a series of bombs (GSZ into Rhino into Grave Titan). Titan closes out the game in two turns. Game two my opponent floods on counterbalances early but I'm able to keep him off the lock thanks to Deed and Therapy. Nissa does serious, serious work alongside Volrath's Stronghold. My opponent exhausts a lot of resources fighting off Nissa - several Terminus and a Swords and a Vendillion Clique on chump duty. I end up winning with Liliana, Rhino, Nissa on board and tracker in my hand. Silvan library was insane this game.
R4: Win vs. Grixis Painter (2-0)
Game one is super grindy. Kaya faced down Tezzeret at one point. My opponent was barely hurt by Deed wiping out something like 6 or 7 of his permanents. Eventually I get there with Rhino and Primeval Titan. My opponent says he could have won but played too cautiously, so I might have gotten lucky.
Game two is similar to game one. Deed, Pridemage, Eternal Witness + Stronghold get me there through Tezzeret, Daretti, and multiple smuggler's copters.
Overall I wouldn't change the deck at all other than the trial Liliana in the board and maybe Dryad Arbor. Arbor didn't feel necessary vs. Miracles and I don't have a lot of backbreaking turn 3 plays to ramp into in my build. The deck felt flexible, powerful, and like it had an answer to almost anything the opponent was doing. Obviously combo is still a weak spot, but we do have tools to make it a game.
My one question-mark right now is Aluren. How do you guys board for Aluren, and how have you typically beaten it (how do the games play out)? There's been a lot of Aluren in my local meta and I've been able to dodge it so far.
Also, and this is just a thought I've been toying with - could we theoretically cut 1 land, 1 threat, and 2 whatever cards for 4 Gitaxian Probes?
Questions? Thoughts? Comments?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
Collective Brutality is a real card. Anyone who is thinking about it should give it a try. It's seriously broken.
You can ask Arian how he feels about To the Slaughter. He was very happy with it.
Almost any modal card is good since they're letting you do multiple things for one card, but Collective Brutality is like a super Command, since you can do three things with it instead of just. And you can do it on turn 2 without a downside in the right deck. Card is nuts.
Also not sure how I feel about To The Slaughter, 3 mana over 2 mana is relevant. A lot of the time it's going to get rid of a creature, so its just an overcosted edict, but being able to kill a planeswalker as well is pretty neat. What matchups is it good against though? It's nice against a Marit Lage or an Emrakul, but I'd rather Blood Moon my opponent for the first and I'd probably still lose to the second with a To the Slaughter in hand anyway.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ricardio
Please, don't question my loyalty to making this deck better.
Sneak attack will likely win you the game but it also inherently works with your deck of large creatures and its acceptable to jam it on 4 mana.
Agreed with most you say, albeit I think titanshift is more consistent than breach but that is sacrificed for a 1 turn faster. Another thread. haha
That's a spot on analysis. I fear nic fit is simply too weak a burning wish deck.
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love scapeshift but I know it needs something huge to be playable in legacy and I know if that happens and made legal in modern, I will lose scapeshift in modern and that's not a good trade off imho.
I think Rubble's thought process on tsunami is correct but making it resolve is the uphill battle. (not giving him credit for tsunami since it wasn't him, just good thinking)
As someone who has played Scapewish off and on for about 3-4 years and won an IQ during the hayday of Cruise with it, I unfortunately agree. I have an undying love for shift, I have it pimped out in modern (where it is not a good deck right now) and I have to admit that it is just too dang clunky/underpowered for legacy. I moved away from Nic Fit for that reason, Shift was the only version I liked given it could actually close games quick. Now with these sneaky fit lists floating around (praise be to Arianrhod and friends) I wanna give Nic Fit another go. Just bought into it on mtgo so lets see how it goes :)
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
I tried brewing an Atraxa superfriends list and I've concluded that the best option is a BUG deck with a single Savannah to hardcast Atraxa mainboard and have access to Teeg postboard. None of the PW compare to Lily and Jace, and Brainstorm is much better than StP in a Decay/Deed shell. Atraxa is great on its own and her proliferate ability becomes devastating when paired with Liliana (lots of sac or an early ultimate), Jace (tick up while brainstorming or 1 bounce per turn for Witness, Hulk, or Thragtusk maybe), Garruk (ticks up the fight ability while making 2/2s), or Gearhulk (grows everything every turn). Here's a first draft:
1
Dryad Arbor4
Deathrite Shaman2
Veteran Explorer1
Eternal Witness1
Leovold, Emissary of Trest1
Thrun, the Last Troll1
Atraxa, Praetors' Voice1
Thragtusk1
Verdurous Gearhulk4
Brainstorm4
Abrupt Decay4
Cabal Therapy4
Green Sun's Zenith3
Sensei's Divining Too3
Pernicious Deed2
Liliana of the Veil2
Jace, the Mind Sculptor1
Garruk Relentless4
Verdant Catacombs4
Misty Rainforest2
Polluted Delta2
Bayou1
Tropical Island1
Underground Sea1
Savannah2
Forest2
Swamp1
Island//SB
1
Gaddock Teeg1
Scavenging Ooze1
Reclamation Sage2
Surgical Extraction2
To the Slaughter4
Negate4
Thoughtseize
I like the idea but the deck has to be fine tuned:
- Not enough island to my taste. Jace is a damned gigolo...
- Not sure you can tank long enough against Drazi with that setup. Some combination of Strix / SCM might be needed or other ideas to be assessed.
- Leovold + Teeg ? I feel there is a bit of overlap, here.
- Ishkana is good to very good in a BUG shell (according to my testing).
- 1 copy of Perilous Research somewhere? So much juice with BUG in general.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
I like the idea but the deck has to be fine tuned:
- Not enough island to my taste. Jace is a damned gigolo...
- Not sure you can tank long enough against Drazi with that setup. Some combination of Strix / SCM might be needed or other ideas to be assessed.
- Leovold + Teeg ? I feel there is a bit of overlap, here.
- Ishkana is good to very good in a BUG shell (according to my testing).
- 1 copy of Perilous Research somewhere? So much juice with BUG in general.
I don't like lotv outside of PF builds, personally. Also with Atraxa, does master bio become more interesting?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthfulcake
Almost any modal card is good since they're letting you do multiple things for one card, but Collective Brutality is like a super Command, since you can do three things with it instead of just. And you can do it on turn 2 without a downside in the right deck. Card is nuts.
Also not sure how I feel about To The Slaughter, 3 mana over 2 mana is relevant. A lot of the time it's going to get rid of a creature, so its just an overcosted edict, but being able to kill a planeswalker as well is pretty neat. What matchups is it good against though? It's nice against a Marit Lage or an Emrakul, but I'd rather Blood Moon my opponent for the first and I'd probably still lose to the second with a To the Slaughter in hand anyway.
To the Slaughter was actually primarily for Miracles and Lands, where they have a single threat to answer. It's specifically for decks with a single threat. It never comes in against any creature deck. We have better tools for small creatures.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthfulcake
I think Nic Fit has plenty of adequate ramp already.
I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.
The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
I beg to differ. Ramp is the first thing people tend to skip on, and often in favor of CMC >= 5 cards. That's just silly. Heck, looking at what we came up with for the SE version of the deck even my list is still a ramp slot short of the mark.
The thing is - the ramp cards we do play usually also function as removal bait, ensuring our opponent doesn't have the removal anymore when the actual threat comes down. Or rather, that's how I play out my games. Feed my opponent a DRS or 2 or whatever little crud I have, then overpower them with a Tireless Tracker (since they're now fresh out of Bolts/ADs). Advance my board state, and at some point go "Rhino, Rhino, Rhino".
I personally find the ramp thing not really all that great as I don't find that I am trying to ramp stuff out so much as survive until I can cast Rhinos and such. I think Vet and DRS are really the best ramp by far as Vet stops ground pounders from attacking and synergies with cabal super well and DRS isn't a dead draw late game like other ramp spells. While they both have the potential to just straight ramp I find lower CMC spells are much better being interactive and letting us get to the late game rather than try to accelerate to it. After all this not to say ramp is bad but that I personally would rather be playing more interactive spells.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mstephenson
I personally find the ramp thing not really all that great as I don't find that I am trying to ramp stuff out so much as survive until I can cast Rhinos and such. I think Vet and DRS are really the best ramp by far as Vet stops ground pounders from attacking and synergies with cabal super well and DRS isn't a dead draw late game like other ramp spells. While they both have the potential to just straight ramp I find lower CMC spells are much better being interactive and letting us get to the late game rather than try to accelerate to it. After all this not to say ramp is bad but that I personally would rather be playing more interactive spells.
You totally missed the point, both on what skipping on ramp detains and on the functions that ramp cards fulfill. Skipping on ramp means as much as "cut down the number of DRS they play". And the list you posted suggests otherwise, I might add.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zirath
To the Slaughter was actually primarily for Miracles and Lands, where they have a single threat to answer. It's specifically for decks with a single threat. It never comes in against any creature deck. We have better tools for small creatures.
Yes, I agree but have you ever got the oppnent to sac a planeswalker?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Echelon
You totally missed the point. Skipping on ramp means as much as "cut down the number of DRS they play". And the list you posted suggests otherwise, I might add.
I will agree that the suntitan is bad and should just be a meren as it was mediocre as hell when I played it this weekend and that the sorin could stand to be something cheaper I am not really sure what though maybe just have it be the Garruk Relentless and have another card in the board.
