[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by gth842s

Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.

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PREACH! AGREED on all fronts.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

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so saskia gives your creatures bad double strike. All of atraxa text is relevant. I got to add a 4th counter to a vial, that was hilarious.
Kaya is insane. I would argue that she is on power with Nissa VF or possibly stronger.
Ulted tamiyo against miracles, talk about sandbox fun haha

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

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Considering combo is where we're weakest, yes. Just compare the clocks, ignoring mana complications for a moment. Lets say you're playing a deck of 4x Seige Rhino. If you double Rhino you hit for 6 on a drain, 4 on turn 1, 8 on turn 2 for 18 total.

But lets say you were running a 3-1 split on Rhino/Saskia and you get to play both. On T1 you hit for 3 on the drain and 4 on the Rhino. Saskia enters and you hit for 14 doing 21 total. And on top of that, thanks to the vigilance you still have a blocker.

Saskia hits hard and fast while still allowing blocks in most circumstances. Thanks to haste you can play around Karakas too, merely the threat of Saskia shorts your opponent a mana.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

so saskia gives your creatures bad double strike. All of atraxa text is relevant.

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It's better than bad. Just Saskia alone comes in hasted, hits the Miracles player for 3, then redirects another 3 to JTMS. And that's assuming you had nothing else on the board.

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but for those that care,

Sneak Fit was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...h-jonathan-orr

And that Rhino Atraxa list was mentioned here: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...ssic-knoxville

@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

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Originally Posted by Brael

It's better than bad. Just Saskia alone comes in hasted, hits the Miracles player for 3, then redirects another 3 to JTMS. And that's assuming you had nothing else on the board.

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We are assuming: we have the mana, it resolves, they don't kill it, they have a jtms and santa brings us what we want. 4 cmc haste vigilant 3/4 legend that gives pseudo double strike is not what im in the market for. I have had saskia played against me twice and neither time did I feel at all threatened by it. forgive my inherent negativity.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

@Ricardio and Rubble, how is the online metagame doing? Has D&T started appearing more yet? Has miracles subsided at all? I've stopped playing entirely now (queue sad violins) overwatch is more convinient and fun..

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As the cards get better distributed and prices go down, im sure d&t will rise but its slow going atm and most of the decks are miracles or ant.
I don't blame you, this is my downtime before LoL season starts.

Online players like their miracles, delvers and eldrazi. Ant is still present but much rarer..I assume storm players don't appreciate a format that revolves around either counterbalance or chalice of the void.
Due to irl stuff I have just been toying around with brews, nothing serious

E: It is admittedly very, very fun stomping blue control decks with sneak fit, the online meta is a blue orgy after all. Cherson yesterday spectated a match I was playing and can confirm the satisfaction.
Nothing better than dropping lines like "Today we'll have pasta for dinner, and when I say pasta I mean spaghetti" while empath-->sneaking in Emrakul against some islands and a Jace. I'm Italian after all..

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Does Saskia actually give you much that White doesn't already do, though? Atraxa does something White doesn't (be a Zenithable Baneslayer that costs less than 6 mana), and helps against aggro decks because of that. Saskia isn't really good against aggro decks (since she doesn't do much unless you're attacking) but she also loses to Karakas just like Atraxa does, so she's basically only relevant for putting fast pressure onto combo decks. Is that good enough?

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I think Saskia works really well in a Junk Fit shell more than a Jund/PFire shell. You throw down all of your usual threats, and then when you've got a rhino or two on the field zenith out Saskia and kill them. Alternatively, you could try fitting one into a Sneak n Fit list (Since that runs a lot of fatties), but that deck already runs Emrakul and hitting your opponent for 30 is kinda the definition of win more.

There might be a nice brew of Sneak n Fit crossed with Junk Fit, idk. At this point, I think Atraxa is the stronger of the two cards with her keyword salad of abilities (Proliferate is gravy really), she doesn't really need a build around effect. Saskia is still very strong, but requires the right shell I think and the right moment to bring her out (Higher ceiling vs higher floor is kinda my point, I got a bit sidetracked).

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Originally Posted by gth842s

Just a few thoughts -

1) If you're running white, I totally agree that you really should run 1-2 path or swords. It's one of the biggest attractions to the white splash.

2) I've never understood the theory between 2-3 deathrite shamans. If you have a meta full of graveyard decks then sure, go for it, but Nic Fit starts behaving like Nic Fit around 4 CMC (tireless tracker is for all intents and purposes a four-drop, rhino, meren, atraxa, etc). Your second, and especially your third DRS is taking up space better occupied by the removal that gets you to the late game, which we dominate.

3) Not running 4 explorers is silly. The core of the deck is therapy + explorer. Explorer is a great chump blocker in situations where a goyf or eldrazi are beating down, buys you time against delver or ramps you into the late game, etc. We play SDT to avoid drawing explorers as the game goes later.

4) I've recently preferred Grave Titan + Primeval Titan for my two 6-drop slots. PT fetches stronghold and tower and you've got a great recursion engine going for grindy matchups and the Grave Titan will end the game as long as your opponent doesn't play a Terminus.

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1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

2- I think 2 is the right number, especially with a 22 land deck. It's convenient ramp, a fine topdeck and gives you some more ground against graveyard decks game 1. 3 is definitely too many though.

3- Preach, but Navsi isn't wrong either. Getting stuck into a mindset of 'This is the core, I can't ever change it' is bad for deck building.

4- Grave Titan and Prime Time are very good, but Prime Time is actually one of the weaker titans for what Nic Fit wants. Which is annoying, because it's the only one you can zenith for. Prime Time doesn't help you when you're behind and doesn't generate much value beyond ramping you or recurring itself with Tower + Stronghold. Grave Titan immediately stabilises, Inferno Titan is anywhere between a straight 2-for-1 to a 4-for-1 (I snuck one in today that ate two delvers and a V Clique just off his bolt abilities), and Sun Titan recurs either a Deed or something else with value written all over it, which can help when you're behind.

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Originally Posted by truthfulcake

1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

2- I think 2 is the right number, especially with a 22 land deck. It's convenient ramp, a fine topdeck and gives you some more ground against graveyard decks game 1. 3 is definitely too many though.

3- Preach, but Navsi isn't wrong either. Getting stuck into a mindset of 'This is the core, I can't ever change it' is bad for deck building.

4- Grave Titan and Prime Time are very good, but Prime Time is actually one of the weaker titans for what Nic Fit wants. Which is annoying, because it's the only one you can zenith for. Prime Time doesn't help you when you're behind and doesn't generate much value beyond ramping you or recurring itself with Tower + Stronghold. Grave Titan immediately stabilises, Inferno Titan is anywhere between a straight 2-for-1 to a 4-for-1 (I snuck one in today that ate two delvers and a V Clique just off his bolt abilities), and Sun Titan recurs either a Deed or something else with value written all over it, which can help when you're behind.

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2 DRS seems OK - that's kind of in the wheelhouse of personal preference and is also going to vary based on 3 or 4 colors, etc.

We should absolutely question everything, but I just don't personally think that <4 Veteran Explorers is where we want to be. I think most of the results we've seen in tournaments would support that opinion. A deck that runs less than 4 explorers is making therapy worse and can't support the 4+ drops in the curve nearly as reliably. If the goal is lowering the curve to the point that everything is CMC 3 or less, then Maverick is a hell of a deck and it plays that game better than Nic Fit does.

I don't disagree that Sun Titan is a good card, but most of us are running eternal witness and Nissa for recursion lower on the curve. The fact that we can GSZ for Primeval Titan is a feature of the card and has to be included in our assessment of its value. This is just my opinion and I think is probably the most up for discussion or personal preference, but the Titans in order of power are: Grave, Inferno, Primeval, Sun, Frost. I don't know what matchup I'm running Sun Titan for, if that makes sense, and I have to stumble into him via top or a natural draw. For shardless I'll bring in Meren and I'll want to get the Tower + Stronghold engine going. For Miracles I'd personally prefer to GSZ where X=7, they can't counterbalance it, and then go get the tower + stronghold engine. And Grave Titan will just end the game, if you leave him in. Just my $.02, though!

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Originally Posted by truthfulcake

I think Saskia works really well in a Junk Fit shell more than a Jund/PFire shell. You throw down all of your usual threats, and then when you've got a rhino or two on the field zenith out Saskia and kill them. Alternatively, you could try fitting one into a Sneak n Fit list (Since that runs a lot of fatties), but that deck already runs Emrakul and hitting your opponent for 30 is kinda the definition of win more.

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I've been thinking about how to include it in my typical builds. As you play smaller creatures it gets better, with the exception of trample damage. Trample could mean that my earlier example of just running 3/1 Rhino/Saskia is the optimal way to play the card.

I don't think it's very good in a Sneak build, but in the sorts of things I've been running for months now, it seems ok. I definitely like the cards raw power level, but as always, I remain skeptical of 4 colors, I think 4 colors tends to spread a deck too thin. Brainstorming for the past couple hours has brought me to this:

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Ash Barrens
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Grove of the Burnwillows

Creatures 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Saskia the Unyielding

Non Creatures 21
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Nissa, Vital Force

The mana strikes me as being pretty bad though, I'm trying to jam too much into it between Arbor, Caverns, Stronghold, and Groves. I'm not too happy with the way the deck looks.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

If anyone is bored and can track down links for video feature coverage or links to particularly noteworthy finishes (say, tournaments with 50 people or more), that would be an amazing help.

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I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

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Originally Posted by removedfromgame

I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

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The deck just doesn't have a big following. No major tournament will feature a match with the deck, so you're mostly reliant on random streamers and for the most part they don't like it much. That makes it tough to find big events with the deck. It has a reputation as a casual rather than competitive archetype.

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Originally Posted by removedfromgame

I've been searching but I can't find anything relevant. Does anyone know of any? I would love to see others pilot the deck and gain some perspective.

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There are 2-4 Nic Fit players in my local meta. Weeklies get between 20 and 50 players, and the local shop runs monthly legacy preservation series (1k) tournaments. If you look up CardKingdom on twitch, there's a decent amount of coverage of Nic Fit but it definitely needs to be sifted through to find the games (they upload entire tournaments as one video file to twitch). If you look at the last preservation series, I believe BUG Fit beat Storm on camera.

@Ricardo, yup :/

@Rubble, XD

From this week's (11/21) Legacy stream we got to see junk nic-fit, which I believe was a rhino fit list.

Twitch clip from this week with the beginning of the game.

https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/102600166?t=55m06s

Also, if anyone is interested, I may buy into the deck on MTGO and try to stream it in late December.

Seeing lots of planeswalker builds lately... but why no love for Garruk, Primal Hunter? This guy crushes Miracles, no?

He is good at crushing miracles, however I have been really like the versatility of Nissa, Vital Force lately. Having the ability to animate a land or get back a permanent seems pretty relevant plus being able to emblem after 2 turns and still have it around seems very strong.

From playing miracles, almost any planeswalker that is is going to incrementally make tokens that isn't going to be cleanly answered by a terminus or single removal spell is something that is scary to see across the table.

@Blastoderm is there any reason that you like Garruk, Primal Hunter over Garruk Relentless or Nissa, Vital Force against miracles?

Garruk Primal Hunter seems okay. I love Chandra Flamecaller (Jund list). Their Elementals doing so much damage and after combat they are sacrified in the phyrexian tower. Also she is mass removal and draws cards. Discarding multiple senseis divining top and draw new cards+1 is so many times great and I have often the feeling that I need more and more draw. Right know I play 2 Painful truths. Maybe I should go up to 3.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

I think lost legacy is an atrocious card that purposely punishes you for getting cards out of your opponents hand. I would rather pay a red for a better spell that cant be force'd

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Why care that your opponent might draw cards when you just stripped them of their win conditions..? What're they going to do, Brainstorm and Dark Ritual you to death? Crack a LED in your face? Besides, since you're targeting 4-offs (at best) it's more likely they not have it hand than that they do.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

The more colours you play, the more duals/fetches your mana base wants. That gives you less slots for basic lands, which means drawing the second/third Veteran Explorer is a lot worse in 4c (where you play 5-6 basics) than in 3c (where you can play 6-7 basics easily) since it's less likely to actually have targets, especially if you're also playing STE.

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So your worst case scenario here is that you end up with all the mana you need..? Yes, that is horrible. Sheesh, even in the lategame it's still a shuffle effect for your Top or a Fog vs. an opposing creature. It's never completely useless.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

Nothing better than dropping lines like "Today we'll have pasta for dinner, and when I say pasta I mean spaghetti" while empath-->sneaking in Emrakul against some islands and a Jace.

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That, my good sir, is beyond epic!

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Originally Posted by truthfulcake

1- I mean, the other reason to run white is Vindicate, ... but almost any issue you have that Vindicate could solve Path/Swords could, so my point is rather moot.

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Yet people are hard set on running Abrupt Decays. I agree with you fully, but this does make me lol a bit. Another reason to run white is the SB options, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Seeing lots of planeswalker builds lately... but why no love for Garruk, Primal Hunter? This guy crushes Miracles, no?

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People like their PW's, it hasn't seen much success for awhile, but it is fun and we got some good ones recently.

@echelon: no, but against ant, naming tendrils doesn't win you the game. They can still empty goblins directly into your anus till you die of goblins in ass itis.

@brael: in the miracles and delver saturated sespool that is mtgo meta, planeswalkers seem strong. Atraxa has been an absolute house. GsZ baneslayer with vigilance and death touch.

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Originally Posted by Ricardio

@echelon: no, but against ant, naming tendrils doesn't win you the game. They can still empty goblins directly into your anus till you die of goblins in ass itis.

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Yes, but our ass still has a way of getting out of that. A little bit of that good old Golgari Charm or a somewhat Pernicious Deed makes your ass goblin free in no time.

Seriously though, Lost Legacy still doesn't get you home free, sure, but at least you don't die on the spot. And in the meantime you still have your discard/hatebears/Surgicals to mess with their plan.

I just took a peek at my SB - turns out I board in 13(!) cards vs. ANT/TES.

On a sidenote - I'm seriously considering running an Atraxa in my Junk list, without any U lands. I mean, GSZ'able flying Batterskull, dammit.