Printable View
I'm not sure what Miracles decks you've been playing or which pilots you follow but Shardless and Eldrazi are def not unfavorable for Miracles, though Eldrazi might be a little ahead. Shardless is absolutely unfavored against Miracles and has been for awhile now.
Maybe Shardless has become softer to Miracles.
Are you actually claiming that Miracles is 50/50 or better vs every tier one deck, or are you just nit-picking?
Some poeple might tell you Miracles is slightly unfavourable vs D&D and/or Lands. Depending on the build, they'd be right.
What I'm arguing is that Miracles has MUs vs tier one decks which are worse than 50/50.
Everyone has their MB and SB targeted at Miracles as the clear top dog of the format and yet no one of the other DtB is able to claim Miracles as their favorable matchups.
That fact should ring some bells
First, Miracles has been a problem for, depending on when exactly you think it became a problem, between 6 months and 2 years (either from the release of Treasure Cruise or GP Columbus) any point before Cruise is almost indefensible if you look at the data.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Let's not forget that I'm broadly in agreement with you here. Something really should be done about Miracles, I'm just of the opinion that it should be nerfed rather than killed in the interest of preserving strategic diversity. Where I disagree with you (and, it seems, Megadeus) is that I don't think Miracles is what's driving other control decks out of the format - most Landstill variants have great Miracles matchups - it's that the answers other control decks have can't cover the range of threats the format presents.
This is total nonsense. My win rate with Shardless has gone up perceptibly (~5-10%) since people started switching to Mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
I think Miracles used to be worse against Shardless and Eldrazi, but the inclusion of Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and Moat* has tipped the balance. That's my biggest issue with the deck: its shell is so flexible that it can adapt to whatever the field's doing and still come out on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
*Disclaimer: I have no idea if this is true for Shardless, but it's certainly whacked Eldrazi and other Chalice decks.
Predict helps.
Also the MU was never that positive for Shardless in my experience. It had the hands that overwhelmed miracles but Miracles can grind the game out well and the deck has several bombs built into the deck (Mentor, Jace, and Entreat) that are pretty good against shardless
As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.
The Predict/Entreat builds are by far the scariest from my testing. I agree that the matchup was never a blowout; I don't think it was ever much better than 55/45. The Predict/Entreat builds seem to be about even with Shardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
Thank you.Quote:
As for other control decks existing, the big problem is why would I play a non-miracles control deck? Miracles can handle most anything and does it better than most any other control deck.
Again, I have no idea who other people play against or what builds they're using, but the Predict version makes Shardless feel pretty comfortable. It's a grind, but Miracles will easily outgrind that match up now.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
I agree with this. Basically any time I see a control deck I think, is this better than miracles? And it's always no. Sure landstill is favored against miracles themselves, but they are much worse against much of the field. And yes I understand that pure aggro was pushed out before miracles, but miracles existing keeps it from ever even attempting a comeback. Terminus is the problem card other than the obvious Brainstorm. It gives miracles that catch all creature sweeper that is cheap and instant speed, and due to the nature of the card also forces you into the miracles shell. If there was reason to believe that maybe on a given day that EE, or pyroclasm, or supreme verdict were the best sweeper to play you could consider different control shells, but when you play those cards and you're essentially wrong because they aren't terminus, that's when it's an issue to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
We have been on this treadmill before. Start from this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I forgot about blade decks. When was the last time a blue blade deck was a DTB?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
August last year.
This is not a valid argument. There's clearly a place in a varied metagame for an archetype that beats the Tier 1 and loses to enough Tier 2+ strategies to stay near 55-45 overall. You can't seriously be arguing that every Tier 1 deck must have an abysmal matchup with some other Tier 1 deck despite perfect play, otherwise it deserves a ban?Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
I can see the logic behind the "ban Top because it makes long tournaments miserable" argument. I can't see the logic behind the "ban top because it enables a control deck that isn't awful" argument. If you ban all the control decks you end up with a crap format like Modern where rounds either last 15 minutes or 55 because the only viable archetypes are aggro-combo and prison.
When people stopped copying them off the internet and started copying Miracles off the internet instead. Maybe they could print control cards that were really good against Miracles and weren't awful against other internet decks, then people could sleeve them, and cast them. <looks to the sky for guidance>Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It doesn't lose to Tier 1.5/2 strategies as this thread just mentioned when pointing to B2B and Bloodmoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
I can't see the logic behind both arguments. An inexperienced player will take a considerable amount of time spinning the top. However, you can always ask the player to play faster or call a judge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
Is clear at this stage that SDT is not an incredibly overpowered card, otherwise it would be played in more than 2 archetypes - Miracles/Nic Fit. SDT is a card that rewards decision making at fast speed. Any player that is slow on big tournaments would end up in the drawing bracket facing other slow players, which would likely mean they are not going to do great anyway. There are plenty of players that love Miracles and playing full control in legacy. Do we really want to end up with a crap format like Modern by banning the good control stuff?
Also, its more than time we get Survival of the Fittest in the format back!! By the time the card was banned there was no Deathrite Shaman, no Rest in Peace and no Abrupt Decay...
Stop talking sense, this is the b/r thread. We have to be mean and condescending to each other for having even the slightest of difference in opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by warai
No, it would be simply nice to be able to combat these strategies with sideboard cards which do not get conceptionally fucked over by the enemy deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Trying to dodge Chalice by running 2cc/3cc removal, if Chalice is ran alongside Wasteland and Thorn, is as successful as battling Belcher with Sanctum Prelate.
Dont have me quote the Judge from Julians article on the matterQuote:
Originally Posted by warai
I am going to guess you have not played against Painter then. Also Doomsday and Storm run it. Doomsday all the time, Storm off and on.Quote:
Originally Posted by warai
The thing about Top is how synergistic it is with a whole bunch of other cards. If your argument that Top on its own is not a problem, then as someone who spent over a year on Painter, I agree. If your argument is that Top in Miracles is not a problem, I disagree.
Top with the Miracle mechanic, Counterbalance and Fetches is a real time sink. Watching someone with a set of three or more open Fetches try and abuse Counterbalance is not quick. Watching someone spin to counter a spell, spin again to counter another and then spin again to draw eats up time.
Top is an engine in Miracles, not just a card selection tool. That's why it's so promptly positioned in that deck. The reason it sees less play elsewhere is due to the decks being built in different ways that let them abuse other cards. For example, Elves would not play Top, it has a plan of tutor and draw, not selection. It will seek raw card advantage. Lands does the same. Delver is often Tempo based, choosing to run one mana cantrips over a repeatable two mana one.
Also, might be wrong, but doesn't Landstill play Top sometimes too?
While we are at it, can we have Yawgmoths Will? It SURE is now fair with DRS, RIP and Flusterstorm /sQuote:
Originally Posted by warai
I remember when I was told Vise would cause untold harm to the format and that Dragon would cause game after game to go to time. Still waiting on both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I personally think Survival is just another one of these "Fear my past actions" cards. I don't actually think it would be so fearsome today. I think it would make a strong and effective deck, but I doubt it would be dominating.
Totally fine with it in the format as long as mana rituals are banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Agreed. Comparing SotF to Will is laughable. The real strike against Survival entering the format again is the stifling effect it would have on deckbuilding, especially for fair decks I reckon. It would be similar to Pod in Modern, why play a creature deck without it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Well it's not like there are heaps of pure creature decks left in Legacy anyway. I imagine DnT would have at worst a 50-50 matchup against Survival, and more realistically would probably be favoured against them. Survival for Rec Sage on Revoker is easily answered by Mother of Runes, another Revoker, Flickerwisps etc, Port and Wasteland destroy what is surely a terrible 3 colour manabase etc etc, Containment Priest and RIP would shut off the Vengevine plan... and these are just cards that DnT already plays in multiples. Imagine if they actually had to try?Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
If there was a card that maybe could help out decks against the current Miracles domination, it would be Survival. That said, Miracles is Miracles and we can safely assume that Miracles would start playing RIP again if Survival was unbanned. Also you have to beat the combo decks of the format with your base-green deck. Good luck!
If Vengevince Survival turned out not good enough, it would probably just go back to being Bant Survival, which can regularly produce a turn3 Iona.
Ok lets check the last big tournament successful deck lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
2010 Worlds Sunday Legacy - 3/4th place - GW Vengevine Survival
1 [US] Gaea's Cradle
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [R] Tropical Island
3 [UNH] Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Windswept Heath
4 [TE] Wasteland
1 [VI] Quirion Ranger
1 [AL] Shield Sphere
1 [C13] Wonder
2 [TO] Basking Rootwalla
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
4 [CMD] Mother of Runes
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ROE] Vengevine
2 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [CNS] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 3 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 3 [CNS] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [CMD] Path to Exile
Worlds 2010 - Legacy Side Event - 1st place - GW Ooze Survival
1 [UNH] Plains
1 [R] Scrubland
1 [UNH] Swamp
1 [SH] Volrath's Stronghold
2 [UNH] Forest
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
3 [R] Savannah
3 [KTK] Windswept Heath
4 [R] Bayou
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [PLC] Big Game Hunter
1 [C15] Eternal Witness
1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
1 [SOM] Necrotic Ooze
1 [AL] Phyrexian Devourer
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [TSP] Scryb Ranger
1 [C15] Shriekmaw
1 [10E] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [M11] Triskelion
2 [M11] Fauna Shaman
2 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
3 [FUT] Aven Mindcensor
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
1 [CMD] Path to Exile
4 [CNS] Swords to Plowshares
4 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [C15] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [C15] Shriekmaw
SB: 1 [M11] Baneslayer Angel
SB: 2 [DTK] Duress
SB: 1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 [C15] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [CNS] Pernicious Deed
How good would this be in a 2016 (with some updates) vs D&T, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Shardless Bug and ANT world?
What means "with some updates"? The concept would look completely different today.Quote:
Originally Posted by warai
Felt under the floor because Eldrazi and the rise of Chalice happened. Pretty much the same way why Land Tax didn't set a foot on the UW control playground at a time where Miracles just became a thingQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Bullshit. Vise was unbanned on September the 28th, Eldrazi became a thing after the Pro Tour in February. That's 4 months the card had to do something and did fuck all. It was not Eldrazi or Chalice that stopped Vise, it was Vise being shit that stopped Vise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
And the meta was shifting as DTT was banned, Miracles sat on top of the format and greedy manabases got already punished by Lands.dec, before Eldrazi sealed the dealQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
It never had the right metagame/time
I at least was vehemently against a Vise unban but solely on the grounds that it had a strictly negative EV - ie. either no impact (likely and what thankfully ended up being the case) or if it had an impact it'd increase the amount of miserable games in the format and punish clunky but playable keeps more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
As I have played recently with Fauna Shaman, the card which is probably the closest to survival, I can assure you that survival is very far from being a safe unban. I am not sure that Y. will would be as bad.
Indeed, A T2 Fauna for two turns unanswered was most of the time translated into an easy win (sadly, most decks can answer a 2/2 very quickly). And survival is miles better, being unaffected by summoning sickness, activable multiple times per turn, killed almost only by decay (while letting you grab a witness to replay it next turn), etc...
Those saying that there is more potent gravehate now do not realize that this is actually not a problem for survival. You do not have to build with Vengevigne, Ooze or retainers. But the survival's opponent has to bring in gravehate as retainers+iona is a 2 cards-kill. And if the opponent land DRS/RiP, the survival player can just discard these 2 cards if he happen to draw them to go grab something that is not grave dependent, or go for Rec Sage - revoker to answer the gravehate.
Just grab the best hate against whatever you are playing against: magus of the moon/moat vs eldrazi, thalia/teeg/revoker vs storm, Sulfur Elemental vs D&T, Scavenging ooze vs burn (+fodder), Faerie macabre/DRS/sc ooze vs dredge/rea,...
They answer it? Repeat.
I cant believe we go through Survival again. Are people trolling or just plain too stupid to look at the last time we had the topic in this thread? I am sure one could stumble over the discussion just about 20 pages back
It was never going going to get that. It was banned back when you could abuse its effect with jewelry and Sinkhole was a real card. It's effect is no longer one anyone cares about, because there are just no ways to effectively abuse it. When Pox was a half threat maybe. These days you can't effectively strand a Delver player on one or two mana. They are designed to play on that margin and Miracles often plays with next to nothing in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Vise was always going to have no impact. It's expiry date has been and gone as the mana costs in the format hit the floor.
You can argue Vice needing the right meta, agreed, that meta was around in 2005.
Not agreeing with you doesn't equal trolling or stupidity, it equals not agreeing with you. If you feel like you can't have a conversation on this topic without such comments or that you have already said your piece, your welcome to take a break from the threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Well, it is a topic on bans/unbans. Given the "exchange prisoner" system, it is only logical that the 5-6 most unbannable cards appear often. Hence repetitions on Survival or Mind Twist, even if I agree with you that those are better on the list than off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
There is no need for a conversation on the matter as we all just had one and the metagame as well as the arguments are the same as a few pages back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
So lets talk about a Necropotence unban, because its rarely a topic here and as Tomb into Chalice seems to be an interactive play, lets use Ritual into Necropotence to battle Hymn and Thoughtseize
Yeah it's funny how people fighting for unbans don't actually seem to care about whether a card can be expected to make legacy more fun or skill-testing, it's just some moral battle to free a card from its undeserved oppression. Who cares if Mind Twist is rotting in a jail cell for crimes it didn't commit? We get hundreds of new cards a year to play with and legacy has more than enough problem cards that aren't fun or skill-testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Yes, there is a place for an archetype like that. However, miracles is more powerful than what you just described. The only matchups it is fabled to be a dog in are cloudpost decks (which it has B2B and blood moon for) and possibly some fringe BGx (4c loam, nic fit). I never said anything about banning top specifically, by the way. And if so, that wasn't my reason. I like the utility that top provides other decks in the format. Something from miracles has to go, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Meekrab
I keep seeing people say landstill is favored vs miracles, though I fail to see how (and i've played the match up. Locally, there was an effort to make landstill work when DTT was legal). Miracles has what, 7 swords to plowshares + terminus? Try beating someone to death with some 2/2s against that. Not to mention, B2B and Blood moon out the board.
EDIT: Misread your post, Dice_box
Standstill is basically a draw 3 in that MU (no creatures to worry about and the only thing you really have to worry about it top on turn 1, which you can force), you bury them in card advantage while they try and find the part of their deck that is relevant.
Or conversely, you just lose if they establish the fabled top/CB and its not exactly difficult for them to find removal. Or if they have top under standstill you're actually disadvantaged. Basically you either counter everything they do or lose, kind of like playing a tempo deck vs combo. Its just flat out not true that its hard for them to interact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
I actually think Terminus isn't as big a problem as Counterbalance since you can beat sweepers with "normal" cards like Painful Truths and threats like Batterskull and Mishra's Factory, as opposed to Counterbalance which largely stops the opponent from playing Magic. I'm still unconvinced as to whether or not a blue-based control deck is viable without both Counterbalance and Terminus, but I'm willing to entertain the idea that a tier 1 draw-go deck is be a cost worth paying to eliminate Counterbalance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Lam Phan's GP New Jersey list has a pretty fantastic Miracles matchup because its game 1 removal was less dead than Miracles', it had more hard counters, and because the only cards that Miracles ran that mattered were Counterbalance and Entreat. Having burn rather than Plows and Terminus made its Snapcaster Mages better, a s it got to run more raw card advantage tools and leverage its manabase. The only times I lost to Miracles with that deck (or Grixis landstill in the Dig era) was when they had Counterbalance with backup on turns 2-3 or if I flooded out on burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko