This is what I've been doing, and it feels pretty strong. 12 counterspells (16 if you count Cursecatcher) mean you basically always beat combo, which will up your win percentages big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_goat
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This is what I've been doing, and it feels pretty strong. 12 counterspells (16 if you count Cursecatcher) mean you basically always beat combo, which will up your win percentages big time.Quote:
Originally Posted by the_goat
Those cards are listed as 3.95+ average copies, which is effectively 4. There's always some yahoo with a crazy build that happens to do well ... I wouldn't worry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by FANAttIC
Daze+Chalice is an interesting shift though. Moreover, 20-land manabases and no Wastelands seem increasingly popular.
@Rothgar, I'm a little surprised at the lack of Images. Is the extra aggro from Reejerey more useful to you than the tricks provided by Image?
It feels really weird to play Daze without Wastelands. But if it's working, who am I do say anything?
My latest list:
Lands [20]
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
11 Island
Creatures [24]
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Merrow Rejeerey
Spells [16]
4 AEther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Dismember
Sideboard [15]
3 Back to Basics
2 Submerge
2 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Harbringer of the Tides
Swan Song is REALLY good in the sideboard. I'd say even better than Flusterstorm. It's a hard counter (sometimes Flusterstorm tax can be paid), it can counter Counterbalance and Sneak Attack, and we couldn't care less about a 2/2 flyer.
My boarding options are:
UW and UWr Miracles:
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Dismember
-2 Merrow Rejeerey
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Swan Song
Eldrazi Stompy:
-4 Chalice of the Void
-3 Cursecatcher
+3 Back to Basics
+2 Dismember
+1 Harbringer of the Tides
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
ANT and TES:
-2 Phantasmal Image
-1 Merrow Rejeerey
-1 True-Name Nemesis
-1 Dismember
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Swan Song
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Relic of Progenitus
Sneak and Show:
-2 Merrow Rejeerey
-1 Dismember
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 True-Name Nemesis
+2 Swan Song
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Flusterstorm
Grixis Delver:
-4 Cursecatcher (draw) / -4 Force of Will (play)
+2 Dismember
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
+1 Harbringer of the Tides
U/G Infect:
-2 Merrow Rejeerey
-2 Phantasmal Image
-1 True-Name Nemesis
+2 Submerge
+2 Dismember
+1 Umezawa's Jitte
Pretty much yeah. Reejerey feels really good against people who can try and gum up the ground like D&T, Maverick, and Eldrazi too. It's a bit slower, but in those matchups you want a definitive answer, and in the faster ones you end up Vialing it in or pitching it to Force anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
If they want to gum up the ground, 4 TNNs + 4 copies is a lot of stuff to get around their blockers. With regards to D&T, Image for SFM for Jitte is quite good. For Eldrazi, Image copying a big beater might impact the game more so than a Reejery. I guess I'd recommend trying it if you haven't yet.
The problem is that you can't rely on TNN and Image to both show up, and an Image without a TNN is a colossal risk, since it dies to anything. Furthermore, it doesn't get to play nice with our tribal cards like Silvergill and Cavern unless it's already on the battlefield. I'm not a fan of the extra variance that Image brings, and my experience is that going with consistency brings the best results.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Hi guys, i am having problems against Shardless BUG, i tried lot of cards and strategys but it still seems a hard match up for me. If i go to the atrittion war (Ninja of the deep hours, Standstill, etc) i don't put enough pressure and get beaten by some weird singleton that shut down my deck (like Night of Souls Betrayal). If i try a more agresive aproach, discard plus mass removal does the job. Any ideas on SB cards that could help? Besides things that are obviusly auto-include, like Relic of Progenitus or Dismember/Submerge. I was thinking about using Sower of Temptation (Card advantage + pression + hard to kill) but it is probably only useful against BUG in my Metagame (maybe against Miracles also), so i was looking for good cards post SB that are flexible for other match ups, any sugestion is useful.
Also, 4c Loam is giving me a hard time when i fail to interact with their Punishing Fire. I was thinking of using Surgical Extraction, but it would probably only be useful against Loam and Reanimator (which are only 2 decks in my metagame); another option is of course, boarding more Relics, but they are not a permanent solution to the problem. Any thoughts on that?
My metagame is usually composed by Shardless BUG, Miracles, Elfs, DnT, Maveric, Burn, 4c Loam, TES, Reanimator, Stoneblade and UR/Grixis Delver. I resolved the problem of Elves being an unwinnable match playing Chalice MD (wich is also great against Delver decks and a lot of other decks) plus Hibernation and Graffdiger post SB. Against DnT, Tidal Warrior plus TNN makes the match even (ussualy favuorable).
This is my current list:
Lands 20:
10 Island
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
2 Mishra's Factor
Creatures 30:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Harbinger of the Tides (currently under test)
2 Phantasmal Image
2 Vendillion Clique
Spells 8:
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Flex slots
Right now i am testing:
1 Island (20 lands withouth Vial seemes a little low; and Island, Island, Cavern + TNN are one of the best plays of the deck in my opinion)
1 Misdirection (5th FoW, sometimes better, sometimes worse, incredible against BUG, worst case scenario, you exile it with FoW)
Sideboard 15:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Hibernation
2 Sumberge
4 Flex slots (wich i would like to be things against BUG and Loam)
Please don't suggest big changes in the MD (like using Standstill, Vial, Wasteland, Merrow, Cosi's, etc.), this are all thing that i have already considered, tested and played. I am comfortably with the style of play of my current MD list and i am achieving good results in tournaments (ussualy only losing frequently against BUG and 4c Loam). I know that a lot of people can't understand Merfolk without Vial, but it's not a fundamental part anymore in most lists, and i think that on this particular approach, it would cause more harm than good (extremely dead draw after a chalice is in play, too much colorless dead cards that can't be exiled with FoW, and no real card advantage like Standstill to suprass this liability), so almost any case when you do not draw it on you opening hand, it's not just gonna be useless, but impossible to even play.
Enligsh it's not my native language, so please forgive any grammar errors.
I haven't played Legacy Merfolk in a while, so take this with a grain of salt, but I liked more Misdirection and/or Divert as a sideboard option against Shardless. Misdirecting a Hymn, Abrupt Decay, or Ancestral is a big game. I also think that it's worth having some number of Tidebinder Mage in the sideboard. It's not free like Submerge, but it hits more targets (Lavamancer being a big one) and is a two-for-one. It helps against KotR Loam decks, though Punishing Fire is still a problem.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a great answer to Punishing Fire outside of TNN or resolving double Lord or going off the deep end and playing Master of Waves. That's just one of the perils of playing a bunch of dorks, and one of the reasons why Loam decks are so good. Surgical/Relic are ok, and should be brought in for that matchup no matter what. You could go for something like Kira/Monastery Siege to make their removal worse. You could also play something with 3+ toughness, like say Skaab Ruinator. Or maybe something like Cloudform/Neurok Commando. Additionally, you do have access to cards like Back to Basics and Winter Orb, which are brutal against Loam decks.
I played merfolk for a very long time when I switched to deathblade.
Loam is really a bad Match up. Back to basics is okay but we are playing many non basics. Cavern, mutavault, Wasteland. winter orb seems good but I never played it. the problem I always had with merfolk is that I had no chance to get a better draw. if I don't draw a creature it was horrible.
also I played chrome mox for chalice 1st turn or 1st turn lord which worked out great.
So, I am new to reading the awesome forum insights on The Source and only recently began playing Legacy again after a 10 year hiatus (played old Standstill Folk and also BW Deadguy back then). I have the following built and am about to embark on a Legacy League at my LGS with a variety of decks, most notably Reanimator, Dredge, Grixis Delver, Shaardless BUG, D&T, Show and Tell and Jund. Here is my configuration
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Phantasmal Image
2 Harbinger of the Tides
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
12 Island
3 Mutavault
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Wasteland
SB:
2 Back to Basics
2 Flusterstorm
2 Submerge
2 Dismember
1 Misdirection
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdiggers' Cage
Basically, I cannot really decide if I still want the Wasteland/Daze package. I know most lists are eschewing them but I have found them to still be moderately successful, if somewhat high variance. I also really like the SB as is except for my D&T plan. I really have only 4 cards to bring in against them (2 Dismember, 2 equips). I have contemplated cutting Submerge for more anti D&T cards but I am not even sure what those might be. Still, Submerge are absolutely golden in the right matches (Elves, Infect, Tarmogoyf decks).
Just trying to reinvigorate the Fish discussion here and get some inputs on my build! Anybody have some recent insights or ideas?
Quote from a user from another forum:
Most of us play one copy in the main and it became a staple in starting 60.Quote:
Echoing Truth is the deck's "safety blanket", the existence of it in the deck means that we're never in a straight no-out situation to things like Moat, Ensnaring Bridge, or double Engineered Plague.
I played Submerge a lot, but things have changed a little with Eldrazi. We don't need help against Goyf decks (Relic and Dismember do their thing and we can always play TNN on defense or ignore them if they attack and attack back for more or Islandwalk past them), so those can be Gut Shot for additional chance against bad matchups like Elves and D&T, while still being good against Delver decks and Infect (and Eldrazi if they play Mimics).
If legacy decks play 3-4 colors + 4 Wasteland with low mana count, then we, as a monocolor deck with 24-25 mana sources, must play 4 Mutavault.
I tried playing 2 Venser in the sideboard at GP and they were great. Returning 20/20, Ensnaring Bridge, Sword of Fire&Ice in combat, Glacial Chasm, Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement, proved their worth. I was even under duress from Liliana, she was ticking up while we both had no cards in hand so I topdecked Venser and waited +1. Lili discarded herself.
Unsubstantiate looks like it could be tested. Great combination of bounce and counterspell:
https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/747567655142330368
1U
Return Target Spell or Creature to Owner's hand.
I like this build a lot, seems like the right mix, but I think you trim a Phantasmal Image or Harbinger of the Tides for 21st land: Mutavault #4.Quote:
Originally Posted by kamikaze360
My favorite D&T card is Cursed Totem - also very good against elves, another horrendous matchup. I might cut Back to Basics or Dismember from the board for 2 Cursed Totems. Or maybe some graveyard hate - Legacy sideboards are so much about your environment though.
Hi guys!! I can't believe that i've played merfolks for 3 years, and never heard about Tidal Warrior. That guy is really the best one drop i can imagine for this deck. I'm playing 4-copies in a heavy land disruption-tempo oriented deck, and it's makes me win, giving me islandwalk and/or disrupting the opponent mana base. It receives Swords to Plowshare as fast like if it were a Painter in a painter deck :tongue: !!
It gives mana fix too, so i can play 2 Cavern of Souls, 2 Mishras Factory, and 4 Wastelands, the low curve lets me reduce the land count to 19.
The list i'm working is:
free spells
Daze 4
Force of Will 4
1cc,
Cursecatcher 4
Tidal Warrior 4
Reef Shaman 2
Aether Vial 3
Dismember 2
Stifle 2
2cc
Silvergill Adept 4
Lord of Atlantis 4
Master of the Pearl Trident 4
Phantasmal Image 2
Standstill 2
Lands: 19
Mutavault 4
Wasteland 4
Mishra's Factory 2
Cavern of Souls 2
Island 7
Sideboard (not much work on this)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 True Name Nemesis
2 Sea Singer
2 Flustterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
Any thoughts? Do any of you tried to play merfolks in this way ?
So I jammed 4 Unsubstantiates into my deck to test out. It won me some games, was dead a few games. I cut it back to a 2 of, haven't brought back in the Echoing Truth or Dazes, I like the card but I feel like eventually the novelty will wear off and I'll go back to Truths and Dazes.
I used to run Tidal Warrior back in the day, I do like having another 1 drop. Not sure I can get behind 7 Islands, I recently cut the 4th Cavern for another Island, but thats after being screwed on mana a few games, I'd probably go back to Cavern, the uncounterable against miracles is definitely needed.
I would not put True-Name Nemesis in the sideboard, because it is probably the best Merfolk creature. I also think that 7x Island is way to little with 4x Daze in the deck, even with Tidal Warrior. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfylion
Slightly off-topic question but is there a reason Merfolks doesn't seem to be played on MTGO? I usually look at MTG Goldfish for ideas but can't seem to ever seen Merfolks list on there. Even on MTG Top8 most of the lists are from paper events.
Somewhat more related, I recently built Modern Merfolks and was thinking it'd be a good way to get into Legacy (paper). The core looks like it remains the same but True-Name Nemesis and Phantasmal Image come in along with strictly better counterspells in the form in FoW and Daze.
One of the biggest things I notice coming from Modern is the lack of Spreading Seas effects to guarantee Islandwalk. I'm not familiar with Legacy, is there a reason why? Is Spreading Seas just too slow?
Thanks!
I play Spreading Seas in the sideboard of my Merfolk list. The mana cost of 2 plays nicely with Chalice of the Void which is why I run it rather than Aquitect's Will.
On a different topic: What do you guys board in to fight Death and Taxes? I have been doing well with my list, but that matchup seems horrible. I play the following list:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Merrow Reejerey
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Spreading Seas
SB: 2 Dismember
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Back to Basics
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunseng
Hello. My list looks a lot closer to the older stuff. No Chalice. I've been having good success on XMage with the following:
4 [M13:59] Master of the Pearl Trident
4 [LRW:86] Silvergill Adept
3 [OGW:12] Warping Wail
4 [TMP:340] Wasteland
11 [USG:335] Island
4 [NEM:30] Daze
4 [SHM:34] Cursecatcher
4 [C13:63] True-Name Nemesis
4 [ALL:42] Force of Will
2 [MMQ:324] Rishadan Port
4 [M12:72] Phantasmal Image
4 [DST:91] Aether Vial
4 [7ED:83] Lord of Atlantis
4 [AVR:226] Cavern of Souls
SB: 3 [ZEN:70] Spreading Seas
SB: 3 [SOK:158] Pithing Needle
SB: 2 [NPH:57] Dismember
SB: 2 [TMP:56] Chill
SB: 2 [ZEN:67] Spell Pierce
SB: 3 [NPH:74] Surgical Extraction
Warping Wail has been doing so much for the deck. It gives the deck a reasonable kill spell for Mother of Runes, Thalia, Flickerwisp, Deathrite Shaman, (it's okay against) Delver, Young Pyromancer, etc. Beyond that it counters Terminus and Toxic Deluge. The only match-up where I side all of them out appears to be Eldrazi.
Against Eldrazi I board:
Play: +3 Spreading Seas, +3 Pithing Needle, -4 Cursecatcher, -2 Force of Will
Draw: +3 Spreading Seas, +3 Pithing Needle, -4 Cursecatcher, -1 Force of Will, -1 Daze
You need to be holding the Pithing Needle as a reactive card against the equipment. It will feel wrong because Needle has so many targets, but short of losing to Port, you'll be rewarded by stopping Sword of Fire and Ice or Umezawa's Jitte. The game eventually comes down to an alpha strike, usually aided by Spreading Seas. It's a rather close match.
Why do you not run 4x Mutavault?Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard