We dont need to ponder about LandStill if it has no chance to come close to D&T, Eldrazi, Lands and Miracles as the decks it needs to stand up to. You cant gear it for all 4
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We dont need to ponder about LandStill if it has no chance to come close to D&T, Eldrazi, Lands and Miracles as the decks it needs to stand up to. You cant gear it for all 4
True. So what part of miracles would you ban, Lemnear? Forgive me if you've already campaigned for a card, I don't want to read the past 50 pages :laugh:
Turn 3 fatty? That's cute in 2016 Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I think his point is, the plan is dynamic. Its the option to go the beatdown route or combo route, but I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Either you ban SDT and end the whole bullshit of playing the clock and timewalk UWx back to LandStill and Patriot or you pick the surgical fix of removing Terminus so Aggro-Control has more of a game and potentially returning to the format beyond the remains which is Grixis Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by rlesko
Both options have their disadvantages in detail. Maybe Pyroclasm, Plows and SCM are enough to compensate the loss of Terminus and we are back with CounterTop+Sweepers dominating the field a few weeks later? Maybe banning SDT would strengthen combo and Eldrazis to the point that Uxx aggro-control, D&T, Lands.dec & Co. struggle to find their place between 4/4 Eldrazis, 15/15 Tentacle-Eldrazis or Tentacles w/o Eldrazi (aka storm)?
I can not predict at this point. Maybe chopping SDT would bring more options back in the whole blue/white/red segment and various aggro-control and control decks would enrichen the metagame instead of my pessimistic point above.
My favorite option would be new printings to battle the whole lockout stuff rampant currently
Wait, aren't you complaining about the rise of AD due to Countertop/Chalice? And yet your solution is to print more stuff like it? :really:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
As for banning Terminus, it surely would weaken Miracle's options since they can't nuke everything at instant speed anymore. Sorcery speed + higher mana cost + off-color mana makes it more susceptible to mana denial, which they currently barely give a fuck about due to Super-Wraths for :w:.
What I don't get is your conclusion that banning SDT would strengthen Eldrazi. How would that work, compared to Terminus? If anything, Elves gets stronger since it loses on of its worst match-ups (that is omni-present in the format) either way.
I move to change the name of the ANT thread to, "Non-Eldrazi Tentacles"Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It was a mere speculation that printing options to get around CounterTop in other colors than BG, could maintain it as an anti-combo tool without the stifling effect it has on the rest of the decks it pushed out of the metagame over the yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Which was the idea as I said, but I sure can't claim that this would definitely fix the problem for aggro-controlQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I'd consider it a potential effect if Miracles is effectively removed, judging from pre Miracles metagame (because lacking other data atm) which had Patriot, Elves and Tempo decks which would still have issues with Chalice, Thoughtknot Seer and Friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
For Elves in particular, both options (Terminus or SDT) would be great news
Personally I want to ban terminus. It allows you to attack counter top by playing 2 or 3 creatures before the lock is established and racing a potential sweeper, and such a sweeper would actually have to be played at sorcery speed. Additionally, there is no way to counter terminus (Except on the stack and super fringe cards like the RG Goblin- grenzo?) whereas things like golgari charm / boros charm in response to verdict are feasible, or bringing things back from the GY after a wipe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Sure beats Petal Tomb Fuck You.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
Re: Terminus
It only has text because of Brainstorm. Man if Miracles actually had to mulligan 2 Wrath, Brainstorm hands maybe it wouldn't have everyone crying so hard. Ban the enabler we cried as Survival died, same for Derpstorm.
Edit: inb4banisland and goplaymodern
I think that would be great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'm curious as to whether you or anyone else in the thread thinks Wizards has made ham-handed attempts to do that already. Cards like Subterranean Tremors and Ceremonious Rejection look like really lackluster attempts at doing just that.
Maybe burning tree shaman? not sure if top was a problem in ravnica blockQuote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Brainstorm, SDT and Ponder have only text because of Fetchlands. Brainstorm Terminus and other Junk back on top of the deck without being able to shuffle it away for free? So "ban the enabler" means banning FetchlandsQuote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
What pushes fetchlands over the top? Dual lands. So ban the enabling dual lands ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
What pushes duals lands over the top? The broken spells, costing mana... Ban everything with UWRBG mana symbols in their CMC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
#EldraziFormat
And what do the Dual Lands enable? Magic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
We've worked it out team! The answer to all our problems.
we
ban
magic
I would love to see Fetchlands go. They're one of the most annoying, time-wasting mechanics we have in the game.
RIP wallets.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
That's the essence of Eternal formats, shuffling deck after fetching.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
The real question is what the meta would be, in absence of Miracles?
i'd start with the decks that don't use fetchlands first :)
dredge
mud based decks
eldrazi
belcher
burn variants
maybe going back to merfolk etc. there's plenty of decks that don't utilize fetchlands that are played in legacy. would be interesting, although i feel like fetchlands and brainstorms allow people to have 1-3 sb cards to hate out the unfair decks a bit better.
would be interested in doing some kind of fun tournament without fetchlands.
Blood Moon would be pretty obnoxious.
Right? Suddenly every deck needs 12 or more duals. Hello $1000 revised underground seasQuote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
If fetches were banned, I don't think I could buy enough wastelands
Sigh, the ignore function only helps so much. Yes fetches are busted so lets ban every deck manipulation spell as well as actual lands. Stop defending Brainstorm with straw men and go back to 'I'd quit if they banned it.', 'They killed vintage.', 'Skill intensives' and the time honored 'Pillar of the format'. Terminus is obscene because Brainstorm is inexplicably not banned, the end. You could hardly justify playing 4 of those 6cc bricks without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
Did someone actually say that yawgmoth's will would be safer than survival of the fittest a page or two back? In a format with 4 burning wish, 4 demonic tutor, 4 lotus, 4 dark ritual, and 4 lotus petal? I don't give a shit how good gravehate gets. They could print this and I would still sling will in legacy:
Tormod's recall 0
Instant
Exile all cards in target player's graveyard. Draw 3 cards.
Ban fetchlands, yeah let's make manabases horrifically bad and weak to wasteland and blood moon. Sounds good. While we're at it, how many dual lands do you own? Because I know a guy who owns over a 100, and sea being worth the same amount as power 9, workshop, bazaar, etc. etc. sounds terrific for those with dual lands but for those without...yeah no one would ever be getting into the format again.
Ban original duals? Play modern or legacy without reserved list cards included, if you ban duals in legacy the format is heavily likely to die due to how pissed off the playerbase would be and it would be chronicles level of outrage on a gallon of steroids.
Unban earthcraft and mind twist? Yes. Has been yes for a long while on both. Will it happen? Sure, when the next treasure cruise/DTT is printed.
Black vise will never, ever, EVER have the correct meta for it in legacy for it to be oppressive as fuck. Delver just shits on the card as it's black vise that isn't conditional in a format with such good cantrips and brainstorm as well as a fantastic complementary suite of countermagic and other efficient dudes. It's really hard to push delver out of the metagame and obsolete it.
<golf clap for mini rant>
Yeah for starters unban about 4 cards that are literally shitcakes compared to Brainstorm, Ponder, Show and Tell and Delver. Like Earthcrap, Mind Twist, Recruiter and even Frantic Search at this point.
Putting words into peoples mouth, wanting cards banned because you dont run them and wanting the culprints stay because you use them yourself. Its like pointing to Entreat just to distract from Counterbalance/SDT/Terminus. Intellectual dishonest at its best only topped by the legendary Dr.JonesQuote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
No one did. No one ever would.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
As if people realistically still get into the format at these times of ridiculous card speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
The joke is that Sam rants about sculpting perfect hands and dodging discard in terms of brainstorm, but dont wants to see that sculpting perfect mana and dodging landdestruction with fetchlands is the same optimization just in another gamezone, which is intellectual dishonest, especially given the fetchlands are the reason SDT, Brainstorm, Ponder, etc are actually playable.
You can pick the Yawgmoth's Will/SotF joke as an extension, where using a broken yard-engine seems fine to some people if its about Retainers+Emrakul/Grisel/Iona, but not if its about Tendrils of Agony. We dont need either in legacy
I'm curious about what decks these "ban enablers dot Dec" play.
Do some of you actually post from branches? A land can be played as a special action, Brainstorm requires a blue mana. There is a colossal difference. We all accept the mostly true need to play lands because they are the primary resource as defined by the fucking creator. Stop comparing the two, its apples and oranges. #banislands ...
Who knew so many Legacy players hated good cards so much?
I think you are being nedleedlessly trolled.Quote:
Originally Posted by nedleeds
What doesn't make sense about this? People feel railroaded into playing Abrupt Decay because it's the only way to fight the current lock-based metagame. The format might be made more fun and interesting if there were a better diversity of options.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
People play Abrupt Decay because it's a really flexible card that can be easily fit into any deck that already plays the best 1 mana creature in legacy. It is an answer to the vast majority of threats in the format, not just Chalices and Counterbalances. If you feel 'railroaded' into playing Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay, you should blame Wizards for printing cards that are so much better than the alternatives.
Not everyone who plays Abrupt Decay plays Deathrite Shaman. And again, the problem isn't that Abrupt Decay is too much better than the alternatives, it's that the alternatives are so bad, and the stuff you need Abrupt Decay against is so good.
As I wrote in my big, previous post: I do think the format would be a lot more open if the most viable safety net against countertop/chalice would not lock people into BG
Spell snare answers both cards very cleanly...just pray you have it when they cast it :laugh:
I actually agree here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I hear that and am confused, as if Counterbalance isn't already obnoxious. If not counterbalance, then Terminus, or show'n'tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitefaces
... or Loam+GhostQuarterQuote:
Originally Posted by ahg113
I meant that in regards to fetchlands being taken out of the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by ahg113