All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

This. Everyone is saying it's so good because it's versatile. Sure. It's a good deck. And it would probably be T1 in legacy. Is that bad? It didn't seem to absolutely ruin the format before, and now with the plethora of answers readily available to fight it off it seems fine.

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WotC thinks it's bad, that they would have to design creatures with the question "how this would interact with Survival?" in the back of their heads as having it legal would prohibit any creatures interacting with the graveyard or any absurdity like Emrakul from seeing print. In the last 8 years the game became so creature-heavy that SotF's various modes became absurdly good in fighting off hate.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I don't see what's changed in the time since Survival was banned that would make decks like Thresh, Zoo and Elves want to run it when they didn't before.

It would displace probably a very small range of decks (probably just Jund and Shardless Bug) and replace them with a variety of interesting, more unique and engaging decks instead.

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When I mention that "creature heavy midrange" would be unplayable without SotF, you bring up Thresh and Zoo? Wanna tell me that DRS + TNN + SotF would not annoy the hell out of people, especially after BG decks got a boost with Return to Ravnica overall and Griselbrand saw print?

I think the continued legality of Show and Tell negates any argument that Wizards actually spends time worrying about Legacy impact seriously.

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When I mention that "creature heavy midrange" would be unplayable without SotF, you bring up Thresh and Zoo? Wanna tell me that DRS + TNN + SotF would not annoy the hell out of people, especially after BG decks got a boost with Return to Ravnica overall and Griselbrand saw print?

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Yes?

That decklist sounds terrible.

Please show me what you're thinking about playing.

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Originally Posted by [SLAYER]chaos

Survival is not only 100% safe, it would improve the metagame by giving miracles what should be a unfavorable matchup, therefore lessening the raw strength of the 4 terminus plan on other green based aggro decks.

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It may lessen 4 Terminus plan for Miracles. It will also greatly increase the 4 Survival plan against those very same green based aggro decks that you're wishing to promote. Which i don't think are better in a head to head match up against It.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

That decklist sounds terrible.

Please show me what you're thinking about playing.

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It has to be slightly better than your

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Hand: Bayou, Fetch, Fetch, Deathrite Shaman, Squee, Griselbrand, Genesis.


Such deck, very good working midrange, wow.

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It's not a rhetorical question.

Produce one of these busted Survival lists. I don't expect a perfect spit-polish, but I want an idea of what people are so scared of.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

It's not a rhetorical question.

Produce one of these busted Survival lists. I don't expect a perfect spit-polish, but I want an idea of what people are so scared of.

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The list Caleb settled on after doing some testing for his banned list series was:

3x Mother of Runes
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Loyal Retainers
4x Vengevine
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Fauna Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Pierece

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dyrad Arbor
2x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
2x Tropical Island

Basically his analysis was that with SotF you basically just crush all of the fair decks in the format because they can't keep up with the advantage Survival gives you. Cards like Aburpt Decay and Deathrite Shaman don't really matter all that much, they're pretty easy to play around. The only thing that would theoretically keep Survival in check would be the unfair decks since Survival is a bit durdley since you need to play a bunch of dorks and random idiots like Rootwalla. However its probably not a good thing to have one deck that embarrasses all of the other fair decks in the format.

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Originally Posted by Feaor

The list Caleb settled on after doing some testing for his banned list series was:

3x Mother of Runes
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Loyal Retainers
4x Vengevine
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Fauna Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Pierece

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dyrad Arbor
2x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
2x Tropical Island

Basically his analysis was that with SotF you basically just crush all of the fair decks in the format because they can't keep up with the advantage Survival gives you. Cards like Aburpt Decay and Deathrite Shaman don't really matter all that much, they're pretty easy to play around. The only thing that would theoretically keep Survival in check would be the unfair decks since Survival is a bit durdley since you need to play a bunch of dorks and random idiots like Rootwalla. However its probably not a good thing to have one deck that embarrasses all of the other fair decks in the format.

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Phyrexian revoker namig survival of the fittest? game won for D&T :)

Gerry T has a ooze list. Although this one is easier to stop the combo with DRS.

2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Necrotic Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Phyrexian Devourer
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Shield Sphere
1 Shriekmaw
1 Triskelion
4 Vengevine
1 Wispmare
Creatures [29]
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
Spells [13]
4 Bayou
1 Forest (246)
3 Savannah
1 Tree of Tales
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [18]
SIDEBOARD
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Nature's Claim
1 Null Rod
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Also few lists of SCG placing lists in Flores article here
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...g/daily/td/114

OMG, screw unbanning SotF if there the only thing you come up with is Vengevine crap....

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Originally Posted by Feaor

The list Caleb settled on after doing some testing for his banned list series was:

3x Mother of Runes
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Loyal Retainers
4x Vengevine
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Fauna Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Pierece

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dyrad Arbor
2x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
2x Tropical Island

Cards like Aburpt Decay don't really matter all that much, they're pretty easy to play around.

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How do you figure? Without a Survival in play this is pretty much a terrible Maverick deck with no removal, mediocre men, no equipment and no ability to actually find Survival. Are you supposed to just hold your Survival until you have 4+ mana, then get it eaten by a Thoughtseize to play around Decay/Daze/Revoker/whatever?

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Originally Posted by Feaor

The list Caleb settled on after doing some testing for his banned list series was:

3x Mother of Runes
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Loyal Retainers
4x Vengevine
4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Fauna Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Scryb Ranger
1x Qasali Pridemage
3x Knight of the Reliquary

3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Survival of the Fittest
3x Spell Pierece

4x Wasteland
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x Karakas
1x Dyrad Arbor
2x Forest
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Savannah
2x Tropical Island

Basically his analysis was that with SotF you basically just crush all of the fair decks in the format because they can't keep up with the advantage Survival gives you. Cards like Aburpt Decay and Deathrite Shaman don't really matter all that much, they're pretty easy to play around. The only thing that would theoretically keep Survival in check would be the unfair decks since Survival is a bit durdley since you need to play a bunch of dorks and random idiots like Rootwalla. However its probably not a good thing to have one deck that embarrasses all of the other fair decks in the format.

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After watching most of those videos, I'm not sure that I agree with his analyses. This seems like it's more vulnerable to targeted graveyard hate like DRS or Surgical Extraction (or even Extirpate) than is Reanimator, and if something like Rest in Peace comes down, it's left with a pretty shitty backup aggro plan.

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Originally Posted by menace13

Gerry T has a ooze list. Although this one is easier to stop the combo with DRS.

2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
2 Necrotic Ooze
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Phyrexian Devourer
4 Quirion Ranger
1 Shield Sphere
1 Shriekmaw
1 Triskelion
4 Vengevine
1 Wispmare
Creatures [29]
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
Spells [13]
4 Bayou
1 Forest (246)
3 Savannah
1 Tree of Tales
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Lands [18]
SIDEBOARD
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Nature's Claim
1 Null Rod
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Also few lists of SCG placing lists in Flores article here
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...g/daily/td/114

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I...really don't see how this deck being allowed is bad for the metagame. I'm not even sure that it would be the preferred Survival list were Survival unbanned.

So just to clarify - the best lists people have offered are soft to exactly the same hate people have offered up as being capable of keeping Survival in check.

I would look into unburial Rites, LED, Survival, Enlightend Tutor, BGW shell with Griselbrands, Retainers, Jin Gitaxias' and the usual Entomb and Reanimation stuff

Basically Burning Reanimator without Looting and Wish but more creatures, Tutors and Survival.

Maverick is dead to graveyard removal shrinking Goyf and KotR. Survival is the same axis and therefore far from ideal. Of you want to rebuild Survival as an Aggro-combo deck it has to be done without gofy or kotr

All of these theorized lists so far look in no way broken, and a big argument that people have made were, "Oh hurr durr if you decay the survival in response they tutor up EWitness to get it back". And Neither of these lists plays that card. All I know is that with my current iteration of Deadguy, I feel decently confident in my ability to be at least 50/50 against these proposed lists of decks that "crush all other fair decks".

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I would look into unburial Rites, LED, Survival, Enlightend Tutor, BGW shell with Griselbrands, Retainers, Jin Gitaxias' and the usual Entomb and Reanimation stuff

Basically Burning Reanimator without Looting and Wish but more creatures, Tutors and Survival.

Maverick is dead to graveyard removal shrinking Goyf and KotR. Survival is the same axis and therefore far from ideal. Of you want to rebuild Survival as an Aggro-combo deck it has to be done without gofy or kotr

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This deck sounds like it REALLY gets hosed by Deathrite shaman.

The biggest issue is that people seemingly haven't noticed that all this (un)banning discussion is pretty much pointless as Wizards has clearly abandoned Legacy long ago.

Well let's just lock this thread then, or maybe you shouldn't click on it?

Even accepting that Survival could tutor up an answer in response, what's wrong with that? It requires another two turns to get Survival back on the field. E-Witness and Sage are good, yeah, but really slow.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

The biggest issue is that people seemingly haven't noticed that all this (un)banning discussion is pretty much pointless as Wizards has clearly abandoned Legacy long ago.

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Even if that were the case, it's like a child being abandoned by an abusive parent. Kid's better off.

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Originally Posted by Scott

Even if that were the case, it's like a child being abandoned by an abusive parent. Kid's better off.

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Nah, we're getting all kinds of fun stuff like SnT cheatables, TNN, Judgment and stuff. It's like abandoned except with a poison injector built in and no medical coverage.

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Originally Posted by bakofried

Even accepting that Survival could tutor up an answer in response, what's wrong with that? It requires another two turns to get Survival back on the field. E-Witness and Sage are good, yeah, but really slow.

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You also have to ... you know ... cast the answer for it's mana cost.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

You also have to ... you know ... cast the answer for it's mana cost.

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That was the point of my post. Accepting turn one dork, turn two survival (on the play, leaving mana open), opponent casts Abrupt Decay on their turn two, you get to tutor for Eternal Witness, cast it on the following turn, and then have mana for 1-3 activations, assuming your opponent hasn't once again disputed you. Against something like BUG Delver, you're likely to just get raced at that point.