Ooh really? Well, missed that :laugh: But then again Legacy works in mysterious ways :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
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Ooh really? Well, missed that :laugh: But then again Legacy works in mysterious ways :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You should not be surprised honestly. 60% of Legacy's decks are already on a Brainstorm+Ponder+Fetchlands-Galore and naturally reach 6+ card in their graveyard by turn 3 or 4 to turn Treasure Cruise into a draw-3-for-U.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Any opposing cards that make Relic of Progenitus better are ok with me. Treasure Cruise makes Relic side-able against UR Delver. Just being able to cycle it and keep them off Delve could be worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'm not sure if goblins could benefit from other decks running treasure cruise. Our main advantage against other fair decks is the raw card draw at our disposal... if now delver decks have access to ancestral recall they could match us also in the card draw department. Against goyf decks you can side in relic and it's ok, but against U/R and U/W/R i don't know how beneficial could be to dilute our goblin count just to nerf treasure cruise. Mainly i am a bit scared by the fact that decks packed with overpowered cards now also have access to card advantage similar to ours.
Maybe the presence of even more delver decks could lessen the already low presence of combo decks, and that would be beneficial for us.
I played against BUG, or Sultai or whatever people prefer now, Delver with 4 Treasure Cruise and I can verify that it's casting cost is indeed effectively (U) or (1)(U) every time. I can also confirm that out of our 5 games, 4 of which sideboarded I never drew one of my 3 Rest in Peace. My losses came about literally post Treasure Cruise. The tempo version of the deck with Delver just received a draw engine that is not as versatile, but akin to ours. I'm not going to lie, it irks me strongly.Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoCop 90
My issue with Relic being the answer is that we want to hold it as long as possible to stave off Tarmogoyf. Delve is part of the cost so you can't respond to them declaring cast and paying costs. One would have to be VERY pro-active with the Relic to truly stop them from getting (2)(U) or so, draw 3 cards-- Which is a very fine rate still.
Maybe that buys enough time, but I wouldn't go so far as to call us a Tempo deck anymore. We kind of have been relegated to Control / Midrange in every match-up but combo. I should note that I'm still running a classic build, not a Winstigator build. Perhaps you could out tempo them with some double striking Lackeys.
Splash White for Rest in Peace.
I know most of us like to go Mono Red, but if a splash helps...
I actually splash white specifically for the one-two sideboard punch of Rest in Peace and Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I like the splashes a lot actually; I run two Tin Street Hooligan mainboard. My piece on Relic of Progenitus was intended to point out that Rest in Peace has become more important. I suppose I should have just said that, less ambiguous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olaf Forkbeard
I've just finished in top 4.
The list:
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Wasteland
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Arid Mesa
3 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 AEther Vial
4 Tarfire
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Volcanic Island
2 Stingscourger
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Settler
1 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Pendelhaven
1 Dead // Gone
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Taiga
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Boartusk Liege
SB: 4 Swan Song
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
1 round UR Delver with treasure cruise
Did 2 mistakes
0-2
2 round bye
3 round mono green combo elves with food chain
2-0 win only because double swan song to two food chain
4 round TA
2-0
5 round ID
Top 8 UWR Mirakles
2-0 Win because swan song to entreet and terminus
Top 4 RUG Delver
1-2
I dont like gempalm, thinking about to cut krenko.
I'm torn between the black splash and a blue splash. Does anyone have any insight into which version is best in an environment composed of elves, SnT and delver.dec?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiesquisher
I don't know any blue card that is better vs Elves and/or vs Delver.dec than the cards you have available in Mono R or Rb. B offers Perish vs. Eves (but there are Chalice of the Void, Pyrokinesis and Sharpshooter available in Mono R, all of which are better than Perish) and Cabal Therapy (and Earwig Squad) vs. Sneak Show (you also have Stingscourger and Pithing Needle in Mono R).
My answer therefore is: BLACK.
As for the Delver.decs you should specifiy which kind of deck you are looking to beat. UWR Patriot Delver is 'a little' different from BUG Delver. My first guess though is that here you won't find any useful blue cards either (regardless of the type of Delver.dec)
//EDIT: Also, the splashcolors do not actually change the "version" of the deck. Splashed colors do very little about the strategy of the deck. The strategy/version whatever you may call it comes from MD cards like Thalia, Winstigator or Mogg War Marshal.
Yeah that's kinda what I suspected. I'm on Rb Winstigator at the moment and I'm loosing hard to SnT. I was just curious if Swan Song helped that match at all, or if I should run more Stingscourgers in my main deck. Thanks for the insight.
I find S&T a very even MU with the Winstigator list. there are only few things you can do. If the still lose then its probably losing to a hand that was unbeatable anyway (like Turn 2 S&T into Sneack attack, petal + Fattie).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombiesquisher
Here is what you can do:
* keep hands that kill on turn 4 the latest
* keep hands with STingscourger or Matron
* block their Sneak Attack with Pithing Needle/Revoker, cause thats the only way they can win against Stingscougrer or Matron in your hand. They won't attempt to go off with Show&Tell --> fattie against us anyways, so Pithing Needle is a really solid plan.
Hi guys. I am a tribal guy, having Merfolk and Combo elves in my collection already. My next tribe I want to make goblins. I really love the look and effects of Goblin Rabblemaster and Goblin Warchief. I love how the goblins have some very quirky abilities such as Skirk Prospector, my favourite goblin flavour text. A few questions:
- What styles of decks can these goblins be used in? I know there is the D&T land package version of the deck (this forum) but I'd prefer to not use the lockdown land base. I also like the idea of Goblin Stompy, but they seem to not be as quirky with their abilities so I would like to stand clear of that.
- Can Goblins be made in a similar way to the toolbox way your forum talks about but without the lockdown land base of D&T?
- Also, how well does this deck fair against Elves and Goblins? (Flavour question on playing against each other =p)
So far I'm thinking of building a deck similar to this video. Other people have told me that Goblins is a bad deck at the moment. Is it true?
Well the general consensus so far is that Goblin Rabblemaster isn't that great for a deck like Vial Goblins simply because he Kamikazes your team. You are welcome to brew a deck and try it of course, brewing is good for learning. If you are a big fan of Goblin Rabblemaster I'd try a Dragon Stompy variant that has been getting some note as of recent. Here is an example Mogg Stompy list to get you started.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
As for the Goblin Warchief, his home is this thread and this deck. Though as the primer mentions, some builds eschew him in favor of Goblin Chieftain due to deck design philosophy.
There have been many an argument as of late as to how important the D&T mana base is and if it is even required in the current meta. About a page back jrw1985 was testing a bare bones mana base to prove exactly that.
I'd advise taking a look at the primer, it is really well written and maintained. (Thanks GoboLord) It goes over the different types of "Sub-Archetypes" of Goblins and though they are goblins they tend to run and play differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
As for how this deck plays against itself and elves:
Goblins Vs Goblins
Keep an opening that can deal with a Goblin Lackey. Mogg War Marshal is very good in the mirror. Spot removal tends to leave behind things with him on board. Aether Vial is king. But obviously, 50/50.
Goblins Vs Elves
It is positive for goblins, at least historically. Our opening threat of Goblin Lackey literally just eats one of their mana sources in combat, which is good. Our removal basically can't wiff on any of the possible targets in their deck. Be Pro-active.
And your last question about how well placed the deck is. I tend to agree that pre-Treasure Cruise / Delve meta that goblins was not generally favored. Some may disagree with me on that. I'd retort a paraphrase of Sun Tsu though. "Know thyself and you will win half of your battles. Know your enemy and you will win them all." Deck mastery is valuable, if you stick with one deck for a bit you can get wins out of just being comfortable with knowing EXACTLY how it works. Also I love Goblins. But metas being metas, they change. I'm not saying that post Delve is better, but I thought it was important to note that the meta is changing.
If you want to play Rabblemaster I'd suggest including a couple copies of Chrome Mox in your list, as I think he is much scarier on t2. The elves versus goblins matchup is interesting. I'd say elves is favored, but it depends on the players. After sideboard it gets better for goblins (depending on your list), as we have access to a lot of cards that are good versus them (Chalice of the Void, Grafdigger's Cage, Pyrokinesis and, if you're playing the black splash, Perish/Nature's Ruin and Engineered Plague). If you want to beat elves, make sure you have Goblin Sharpshooter main, and maybe 1-2 Pyrokinesis too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
Black spells are always one step behind.
Discard-brainstorm(all 1,5 about it)
Crazy topdecks.
You cant handle it with black or colorless spells.
Blue is always right in time.
Againg RUG BUG i sbin flusterstorms. For example to counter bolt in lackey or rought or deluge.
Now noone expect blue in goblins. Blue is the next step of goblins i'm sure about that.
Swan song is ideal card vs S&T, Miracles and any other combo. Fluster is so good vs reanimator.
Goblins always lose to hand and grave. With almost any card on the table we can deal. Counterspells counter hand/topdecks and relick/rip grave.
I've been doing a little playtesting against the new UR Delver deck with Swiftspear and Treasure Cruise. And holy shit that deck is gooood. Like, really good. I just want to gush about how good that deck is because it is really on a different level than Goblins. Really, it looks to be on a different level than most of the field. So, side those Chalices.
I really like the black splash, especially the discard spells. I think the blue splash can be good, (haven't tried it, but like the idea) although I think Chalice of the Void is one of our best options when it comes to sideboard cards, and it doesn't work very well with Swan Song/Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm. Versus the SnT decks, playing a Thoughtseize to get rid of their combo piece and then playing a chalice to stop them from cantripping into new pieces is a very powerful play, as long as you get a decent clock on them. Versus storm you may want to play Chalice for zero, in which case it countering your own spells isn't an issue. However, the problem is that your Swan Songs and Spell Pierces risk trading with their duresses and cabal therapies, rather than their Infernal Tutors and Burning Wishes. Still, I think the blue splash may be fine, I'm just putting some of my concerns out there. I would love to hear your thoughts on these matters, and potential solutions to these problems, as I take it you have actually played the blue splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by OlegtheSuper
That sounds pretty scary. Hopefully I'll get some testing in versus the deck this week. I'd be happy to hear more on your experiences on the matchup (and the card in general).Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
First is to place CotV you need 2 mana in the begining of the game it is almost 1 turn and there can be no cantrips in S&T's hand. In this way you lose 1 turn to nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandro95
Secont is you counter your own discard spells with CotV if it comes first.
Third is if you place CotV befor you get any discard spell you didn't hit any wincondition spell like S&T and Sneak Attack. He can just draw it.
With blue splash no need to put in sb cards like ashen rider who works agains only 1 sort of deck(S&T).
For example S&T can't go through flusterstorm till turn 4-5. And this is only 1 card not 2.
All blue decks sbout almost all counterspells agains us and sbin all sorts of massremoval, so we can fight this strategy with only 1 volcanic island on the battlefield.
Vs Shardless BUG we can fluster all sorts of advantage spells like Agent-Vision, deluge.
VS Nic Fit we can counter Plague, Deed and Scapeshift with onle 1 sort of card in our SB Swan Song.
Just try it. I'm sure you will like it.