[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by Warden

I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.

@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).

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Would you trim a KotR for a Recruiter of the Guard? (Assuming a vial list)

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

Would you trim a KotR for a Recruiter of the Guard? (Assuming a vial list)

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I'm open to it. It might even be the superior call. But out of personal experience, I'd prefer running 61/4 knights > 60/3 knights. She's never a bad call in my books.
The only thing that would really convince me to drop down to 3 KotR would be jamming KotR/Recruiter/Flickerwisp in a 60 card deck. I think the curve just blows up at some point and you can't run 12+ threedrops (equipment factored in here as well).

Won my LGS' win a dual event this week. Played a pretty typical list, I had been trying to test sanctum prelate, but never actually cast it so I dropped it tonight for the 2nd qasali pridemage.

Match-ups
Aggro Loam 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1 - had a very grueling grindy game 3 where I eventually won with a jitte, thalia, and pridemage. Drew very poorly that whole game as well, lucky that my opponent did not draw very well either.
UWr Stoneblade 2-1 - Sword of Light and Shadow did work here. Fire and Ice was very good here as well. Main challenge is grinding through snap + swords
Sneak n Show (Omni version) 2-0 - Had an early knight, my opponent was on the sneak attack plan and karakas was able to keep an emrakul at bay. Game 2 my opponent missed a land drop and tapped out for a sneak attack which was met with a pridemage.

Still playing a pretty typical DNeeley list, and I do still believe that Green Sun's Zenith is far better than aether vial.

Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Containment Priest

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Originally Posted by ET1

Won my LGS' win a dual event this week. Played a pretty typical list, I had been trying to test sanctum prelate, but never actually cast it so I dropped it tonight for the 2nd qasali pridemage.

Match-ups
Aggro Loam 2-0
Eldrazi 2-1 - had a very grueling grindy game 3 where I eventually won with a jitte, thalia, and pridemage. Drew very poorly that whole game as well, lucky that my opponent did not draw very well either.
UWr Stoneblade 2-1 - Sword of Light and Shadow did work here. Fire and Ice was very good here as well. Main challenge is grinding through snap + swords
Sneak n Show (Omni version) 2-0 - Had an early knight, my opponent was on the sneak attack plan and karakas was able to keep an emrakul at bay. Game 2 my opponent missed a land drop and tapped out for a sneak attack which was met with a pridemage.

Still playing a pretty typical DNeeley list, and I do still believe that Green Sun's Zenith is far better than aether vial.

Sideboard:
3 Zealous Persecution
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Containment Priest

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Which cards do you find mvp in the Stoneblade matchup? I found that 4x fishes in one deck can give quite a headache.

Therefore, interesting question: what do you think of good old engineered plague in sb? It helps with lots of stuff, from tribal decks (elves, goblins, d&t, merfolks etc.) to fishes, tokens from mentor, pyromancer or lingering souls or, worst case, make e.g. a stoneforge 0/1 so they couldn't charge jitte.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

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Originally Posted by Warden

I don't see a need for Wail. It doesn't remove TNN or stop combo decks (since I'm not sitting back on 1C every turn). Maybe the Vial list. Maybe.
I am also against pfires engine, as it's not where Maverick wants to be (see: Thalia 1.0). The strain of supporting a manabase with fetches, duals, groves, and wastes is too much. Philosophically, I've been drifting towards a mono-W manabase a la DnT with sufficient basics and mana disruption.

@Recruiter (again): The card is dope. It works best as 2x. The biggest appeal is that you're grabbing a key hatebear (any color) or knights at-will. It's also a set cost to play the "tutor with legs". I find its flexibility in tutoring to outweigh a vast majority of the cons. The more I think of the comparison to GSZ, the more I think we're dealing with apples:oranges as they do not compete for slots. Vial vs GSZ compete for the same slot. Recruiter competes with flex spots and/or allows you to shave down elements of the deck by 1x (as it acts like a virtual copy of nearly everything).

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I don't think that anybody here argues that Recruiter is bad, not at all.
The issue with Recruiter is that while we are trying to make our deck faster, he is slow.
He is rather bad vs combo decks as he gives them a turn to combo out or adjust their strategy to the upcoming hatebear.
He is rather bad vs fair decks, as, once again, unless it's lategame you are giving them a turn. Are you grabbing a Qasali to destroy that Jitte? Bad news bud, next turn it will be already charged and will kill your moms (possibly with a Flickerwisp setup to save Jitte). Are you grabbing a Mirran Crusader to come through a bunch of tarmogoyfs? I think your opponent has already started to brainstorm for an Abrupt Decay for your vial and a FoW for your Crusader. Are you looking for a Prelate to stop that Supreme Verdict/Deluge? Well, chances that they will play it now since they know you're coming for their massremoval. Your opponent almost always has a spot to see what's coming and get prepaired, and this makes our deck worse.

Yeah, he can be good, but this is just simply not enough. I would honestly want to see something else like an extra actual Qasali or a Prelate in his slot all the time. And cutting Knights to fit Recruiters seems just ridiculous to me. If you want to play Recruiters, why not just play D&T? They at least have a Rishadan Port to tap opponents out and support their strategy (e.g., stop that Supreme Verdict since opponent doesn't have double white anymore).

@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.

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I would honestly want to see something else like an extra actual Qasali or a Prelate in his slot all the time.

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This is really where playstyle differs. One isn't superior to the other. I'm on the opposite side of the fence because I'd rather obtain a relevant answer for the current situation. Using your example, it sucks to topdeck QPM when you need Prelate (and vice versa). Other times I hope to break open the game by dropping a KotR / SFM not currently in hand. I feel Prelate increases my odds of obtaining something I specifically need. We're also glossing over the later portion of the game where mana cost is almost irrelevant (especially in Zenith lists with Cradle). I topdeck Prelate, tutor, and immediately cast the tutored card. I cannot get a similar result from say, an additional prelate. But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I'm open to it. It might even be the superior call. But out of personal experience, I'd prefer running 61/4 knights > 60/3 knights. She's never a bad call in my books.
The only thing that would really convince me to drop down to 3 KotR would be jamming KotR/Recruiter/Flickerwisp in a 60 card deck. I think the curve just blows up at some point and you can't run 12+ threedrops (equipment factored in here as well).

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Yeah, curve was my primary question as well. I can't currently fit a 5th three drop + 3 equipment which means I have to make the call of "is Recruiter better than a Knight or a SOFI, assuming running just 1 is the correct call"

Thanks for the insight!

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Originally Posted by Warden

@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.



This is really where playstyle differs. One isn't superior to the other. I'm on the opposite side of the fence because I'd rather obtain a relevant answer for the current situation. Using your example, it sucks to topdeck QPM when you need Prelate (and vice versa). Other times I hope to break open the game by dropping a KotR / SFM not currently in hand. I feel Prelate increases my odds of obtaining something I specifically need. We're also glossing over the later portion of the game where mana cost is almost irrelevant (especially in Zenith lists with Cradle). I topdeck Prelate, tutor, and immediately cast the tutored card. I cannot get a similar result from say, an additional prelate. But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

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So let's re-frame the question then:

What are the essential non-green creatures that we need to solve problems, and how many of them need a tutor to specifically find them?

My only thing on shaving slots with GSZ/Recruiter is that IMO, you probably want like 3 QPM. I used him a bunch in bant and he's a total house; with Blade variants everywhere it seems quite good to have multiples so if it gets plowed, if they drop a second piece of equipment you need to pop, etc.. you have access.

I was mentioning somewhere on here that Exalted is no joke either. I was swinging for 5 on T3 the other day with a QPM just because I had a couple nobles. Even swinging for 4 is goyf-style pressure. I had a guy who begrudgingly plow'd a KotR who was very happy when he realized it wasn't a QPM, because he was ready for it to pop his Jitte; so in cases like that, he's even potential CA (when it's actually a QPM ;p)


EDIT: I should say, I've been going more and more aggro/proactive in the meta with my decks. QPM slots would replace decay slots most likely. Leo decks are attempting to capitalize on you loading up on removal, so while it's not a huge deal to give them a card, I'd rather be in the position they're playing a 3-color 3-mana 3/3 that doesn't affect me while I swing with flyers. It may be worth considering lingering souls in the deck just for end-game equip/planeswalker problems.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

So let's re-frame the question then:

What are the essential non-green creatures that we need to solve problems, and how many of them need a tutor to specifically find them?

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Mom: primarily defense/eliminates blockers for someone on offense
Thalia 1.0: tax effect + synergy with wastelanding the opponent. first strike sometimes relevant. karakas tricks sometimes relevant.
Wx support: situational, but may greatly impede opponent's strategy (see: canonist, containment priest, prelate, Thalia 2.0, Orzhov pontif). Commonly run as 0-2x.
Non-green, Non-white support: fringe options like Confidant, Kambal, Magus of the Moon, etc

Recruiter tutoring offense opens the doors to Mirran Crusader (0-2x) and SFM (2-4x).
**We are not considering KotR, QPM, Scooze, Scryb, Teeg, and Rallier as targets. You asked for non-green but those all qualify.

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Originally Posted by Warden

Mom: primarily defense/eliminates blockers for someone on offense
Thalia 1.0: tax effect + synergy with wastelanding the opponent. first strike sometimes relevant. karakas tricks sometimes relevant.
Wx support: situational, but may greatly impede opponent's strategy (see: canonist, containment priest, prelate, Thalia 2.0, Orzhov pontif). Commonly run as 0-2x.
Non-green, Non-white support: fringe options like Confidant, Kambal, Magus of the Moon, etc

Recruiter tutoring offense opens the doors to Mirran Crusader (0-2x) and SFM (2-4x).
**We are not considering KotR, QPM, Scooze, Scryb, Teeg, and Rallier as targets. You asked for non-green but those all qualify.

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The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

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It could be. Definitely warrants testing. My problem with recruiter as I've mentioned before is a lot of the non green hatebears I want, I want against combo. I think Maverick already handles fair MU more than fine. The problem here (for me) is that recruiter is too slow because the earliest I could drop a recruiter and then play the tutored creature, against combo is turn 3. Personally, I think that's a turn too slow.

Again I think it warrants testing and it could be that having the redundancy of hatebears + recruiter is fine.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

I don't think that anybody here argues that Recruiter is bad, not at all.
The issue with Recruiter is that while we are trying to make our deck faster, he is slow.
He is rather bad vs combo decks as he gives them a turn to combo out or adjust their strategy to the upcoming hatebear.

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Originally Posted by Warden

@aspsnake: I guess we have differing perspectives. Painting Recruiter in that light is certainly one way to look at it. But I'm not trying to make Maverick faster (it's mid-range by design) and I'd rather have some flexibility in grabbing an appropriate answer than something irrelevant. I'm not sure if I was unclear, and I apologize if I was, but Recruiter takes some of the flex slots of the deck. There is this misunderstanding Recruiter is somehow replacing Zenith and/or Recruiter replaces win conditions.

[...] But perhaps my mentality centers around not feeling I need to make Maverick faster. I'm focusing on getting over that mid-range hump and solidfying the longer-term game.

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On the topic of speed and hatebears, I was suggested last weekend, and have considered myself, adding a Mox Diamond to the sideboard to enable t1 Thalia, Canonist etc. I very much feel that speed is crucial in unfair matchups. Not sure it's worth it, I just wanted to try it at some point. On the other hand, usually a t1 Thoughtseize has a similar effect, in that it delays your opponent's win and let's you deploy a hatebear.

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Originally Posted by pettdan

On the topic of speed and hatebears, I was suggested last weekend, and have considered myself, adding a Mox Diamond to the sideboard to enable t1 Thalia, Canonist etc. I very much feel that speed is crucial in unfair matchups. Not sure it's worth it, I just wanted to try it at some point. On the other hand, usually a t1 Thoughtseize has a similar effect, in that it delays your opponent's win and let's you deploy a hatebear.

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Those 2 approaches are the only realistic ways to save you from fast unfair things IMO. I'm tainted by combo going off while I stare at land #2 + Thalia in hand. Chaining together small annoyances is how you realistically win anyways (t1 wasteland does damage, t1 discard into t2 bear, t1 dork into turn 2 thalia/waste into turn 3 bear, simply dropping t2 teeg or priest, etc).

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The reason I brought it up is maybe the real jewel to this discussion is the idea of how many hatebears do we really want to have access to in Maverick?

Like, would running 2 Recruiter + 5-6 nongreen targets in the sideboard be worth considering?

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I could see something like that working. I could see having 2 recruiter + 4 bullets main backed by 5-6 bears in the board (allowing you to double down on a relevant bear or swap out irrelevant ones). The remaining 9-10 cards would cater to specific matchups or solid catch-alls like Zealous.

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Originally Posted by aspsnake

Which cards do you find mvp in the Stoneblade matchup? I found that 4x fishes in one deck can give quite a headache.

Therefore, interesting question: what do you think of good old engineered plague in sb? It helps with lots of stuff, from tribal decks (elves, goblins, d&t, merfolks etc.) to fishes, tokens from mentor, pyromancer or lingering souls or, worst case, make e.g. a stoneforge 0/1 so they couldn't charge jitte.

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It varies based on the stoneblade variant. Keep in mind that the different varieties of stoneblade are very different from one another. In this particular match-up against UWr stoneblade I think the match-up is somewhat similar to miracles, just much better on our end. In my opinion the equipment are the mvp's, sword of light and shadow pulls a lot of weight, especially when behind. Sword of Fire & Ice is also pretty bonkers as well. The main thing is that equipment allows you to avoid over committing into a supreme verdict and lets you keep up by turning every creature into a legitimate win condition. Against other variants of stoneblade such as esper and deathblade wasteland is often your best card while being just mediocre-bad in the UWr stoneblade match-up.

Generally stoneblade decks rarely ever play 4 true-names and I most often see 2 and sometimes 3. Zealous persecution essentially won my game 3, as my opponent dropped an early true-name, but had already used their force on a thalia.

On Engineered Plague, I personally am not a huge fan, but do believe it is a meta call. It's going to be great against elves, merfolk and goblins, but elves is the only one of the three that holds any significant metagame share. In the case of D&T placing it on humans hurts us as well and doesn't do any better of a job then a zealous persecution (which also hits flickerwisp and phyrexian revoker). Against delver it seems pretty good, but most of the time I see zealous persecution doing just as much work. In most cases I do believe zealous persecution is just better, against elves and merfolk its also quicker which is important in both of those match-ups.

Chiming in on the Recruiter topic, I think you want to run him if you are playing aether vials, but I think he is too slow in GSZ maverick. If his main advantage over GSZ is the ability to grab hatebears such as ethersworn canonist, thalia, containment priest he is simply too slow against most combo decks. Thalia turn three or four is much less impactful than turn two. It essentially seems like recruiter would be a way to beat combo decks slower starts, not exactly where I want to be. In GSZ maverick he seems like a trap card. In D&T he seems much better as D&T often acts much more like a control deck than maverick. They have more mana denial and are better at employing it. This creates a much more sufficient delay to make recruiter impactful. Definitely a good card, but he seems slow in the match-ups we want him in.

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Originally Posted by ET1

Chiming in on the Recruiter topic, I think you want to run him if you are playing aether vials, but I think he is too slow in GSZ maverick. If his main advantage over GSZ is the ability to grab hatebears such as ethersworn canonist, thalia, containment priest he is simply too slow against most combo decks. Thalia turn three or four is much less impactful than turn two. It essentially seems like recruiter would be a way to beat combo decks slower starts, not exactly where I want to be. In GSZ maverick he seems like a trap card. In D&T he seems much better as D&T often acts much more like a control deck than maverick. They have more mana denial and are better at employing it. This creates a much more sufficient delay to make recruiter impactful. Definitely a good card, but he seems slow in the match-ups we want him in.

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In reference to D&T

Because of Rishadan Port + Aether Vial, what D&T usually lacks isn't a way to survive the early turns, but to survive the midgame against combo. Tapping lands and taxing with thalia is all well and good--but sometimes the opponent gets to 6 lands and just goes off anyway. Vial + Recruiter allows for "end of turn" search shenanigans to find the last lock piece.

Maverick goes the opposite, where Thalia + Wasteland is to stall until Teeg or Knight come online. Once they do, either the opponent loses 4 lands in a row, or they can no longer win the game.

Neither strat is better than the other--just that there is a fundamental difference in *when* each deck needs its lock piece.

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Originally Posted by TMagpie

In reference to D&T

Because of Rishadan Port + Aether Vial, what D&T usually lacks isn't a way to survive the early turns, but to survive the midgame against combo. Tapping lands and taxing with thalia is all well and good--but sometimes the opponent gets to 6 lands and just goes off anyway. Vial + Recruiter allows for "end of turn" search shenanigans to find the last lock piece.

Maverick goes the opposite, where Thalia + Wasteland is to stall until Teeg or Knight come online. Once they do, either the opponent loses 4 lands in a row, or they can no longer win the game.

Neither strat is better than the other--just that there is a fundamental difference in *when* each deck needs its lock piece.

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That's mainly what I meant. Two very different angles of attack.

Hello,

I've been working since ages on a Junk blade concept and I'm now ready to share a list.
I think this thread might be the best place to share it as it is not so far from what Maverick has to offer.


Legendary Blade by Ralf

1 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
3 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath

1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons
1 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Palace Jailer
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Tymna the Weaver
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
3 Mother of Runes
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Batterskull
1 Hero's Blade
1 Umezawa's Jitte

1 Sylvan Library

3 Abrupt Decay
3 Eladamri's Call
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Hallowed Moonlight
SB: 2 Abeyance
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence


1) Eladamri instead of GSZ/Vial -> there is too many very good non green hatebears right now that we should not pass on the ability to be able to fetch them. I tried Time of Need but the list could only not be all about legendary creatures.

2) The initial concept was about to abuse Hero's Blade with legendary creatures. I tried 2 blades but was kind of disappointed.

3) SB is usually in flux and was not updated since Top's departure.


I hope some of you will be interested in trying something new and that we shall discuss about it.

Regards,

Ralf.

So many questions...

What's the value of this over Vial/Recruiter? You seem super soft to both Counterspell as well as your own consistency. Why heros blade? I think pure pump is fairly weak without other effects. If it's just size wouldn't just running more goyfs/KotR be more consistent? Why only 3 moms? If your deck is nothing but 1ofs isn't it MORE important to protect the one you resolve for the matchup? Is there enough density of disruptive threats? 4 Thalia 4 Zenith 1 Teeg means we have 9 hate cards that can resolve turn 2 with normal maverick that hits a wide range of decks--with so many 1ofs do you have enough consistency that you get those cards early enough consistently enough? Why only 3 eladamri's when it's the core of your deck?

I have many more questions about the structure of the deck as well as questions about card choices that I'll wait until I learn more from you--but I want to know more!