[Deck] Death and Taxes

I am probably going to experiment more with the Ancient Tomb/Mox Diamond path rather than splashing colors. Not really sure about how to approach it yet, but I am pretty sure it will have some Thalia Stompy flavour with new Thalia main deck and CotV in the board.

This whole thing pisses me off though. Despite being interesting with lots of experimenting and a new meta, I can't help feeling bad for all the Miracle players who invested time and money in the format, just to see it being stripped away. Makes me fear for my own investments in the game.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Yeah I don't think maindeck Ethersworn is crazy.

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It might be a good idea to have some amount of SotL/Canonist as additional two drops, likely at the cost of a Revoker (or multiple?) and maybe a Recruiter. I don't know how much time we'll have for Recruiter in the new world order.

I can see the possibility of folks going to try a blue-black control deck to somewhat replace Miracles. And I feel confident that there will be people messing with Scroll Rack (talk about time to invest in a card). But my guess is that we just returned to a world in which sweepers are few and far between. I see the logic in a toolbox until we have some sort of coalesced meta, but we have certainly come to a point in which acceleration in the least accelerating color feels extra important now.

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Originally Posted by Finn

So, is revoker now a sideboard card?

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Aren't the future DTBs - Sneak and Show, UBxx DRS/TNN/Jitte pile, UBxx Delver, Storm and Elves?

Feel like if the TNN strategy is the best fair blue control thing to be doing we're terrified of it wearing an active Jitte, Sneak and Griselbrand, DRS in every fair deck, all the Elves cards, LED, and the mirror.

Feel like Revoker sucks vs Delver and Lands like always, but otherwise hits the same 70% of the format.


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If you need to play bad cards in DnT for it to be playable, then you probably should just be playing another deck...ideally one that doesn't have to play bad cards.

I like the idea of at least one Ethersworn main to start - Ethersworn's good vs all of those 'I wish I had a Chrome Mox' decks, while also having the worst case scenario of 'well, it's a 2/2' instead of 'this card is literally worse than drawing a land'.

Imperial seems strongest, as Magus of the Moon is even better, Sudden Demise is value again, but we have to go leaner against combo both main and side. Might also need to increase flyer depth a bit because Delver ought to get somewhat stronger.

I think Palace Jailer is out, and Spirit of the Labyrinth and, as already noted, Ethersworn Canonist are in the main.

Not sure what else comes out and goes in. I feel like Gideon and Pia and Kiran both get worse because they aren't as much value at 4cmc and they don't deal with TNN, which is going to be all the places.

Also, Lands and Eldrazi improve because Eldrazi has turn 1 Chalice of the Void and aggression and doesn't face 4 Terminus maindeck now, while Lands was heavily pressed by Miracles and is free to do dirty things

Personally, I think with less need to run revoker, less need to run cavern, and more tnn and delver running around, it might be a good time to revisit avenger. I could even see a world where we go to 22 land and more 2 drops. Otherwise, I like the idea of a splash for red or black to fight elves.

4 Mom
4 SFM
2 Revoker
3-4 Avenger
4 Thalia
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter
1 Prelate
1 mirran crusader
0-1 palace jailer/spice

4 Vial
4 STP
Jitte, Sofi, Bskull

Bunch of Plains

SB:
4 Canonist
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
2 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic warder
1 Gideon
2 Council's Judgement
1 Palace Jailer

Just to throw rough ideas out there:

Monocolored toolbox approach:
Lands
10 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Leonin Relic-Warder

I've largely believed that Cavern was only playable in the deck because of Miracles. With that gone, I'm fine with trying other utility lands for a little while.

I think diversifying the hate a little bit might be nice in the first week or two while everyone is experimenting. This cuts a Revoker, Flickerwisp, Crusader, and Avenger from my previous build.

This still feels a little anemic, so maybe splashing is correct:

Lands
4 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Arid Mesa
3 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader

Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Orzhov Pontiff

Kambal seems good against combo as well as various control decks, so I don't hate trying that out again. Pontiff seems like it will clean up TNN, Elves, and other annoying things that aren't getting swept away by Terminus anymore.

I have a feeling we are going to flooded with Elves. Is there anyway (without sacrificing our BUG match) that we can tune to bring that match to even? Or is it just a lost cause? I like the look of the black splash, but I would want to run 2 copies of Zealous. Although at that point we are tipping into Dead Guy Ale ground.

I am confident that "Imperial Taxes" has a fantastic BUG match up as wells as a fighting chance vs Elves thanks to Sudden Demise. Even without Sudden Demise, but Path to Exiles instead, Elves seemed fine after board. I would say I win around 40% of the time vs Elves with PTEs and a Needle after board and am OK with that.

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash

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Originally Posted by jcj7

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash

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Iatee's list from the last SCG Open is a great starting point.

I am quite happy that the very last round in my last tournament I played with Top legal, which finished only a half hour before the B&R announcement, was a match against Miracles that finished 2-1 in my favor, went 45 minutes, and involved me grinding them to nothing with Vial, Karakas, and Cavern.

I have been on the right side of some of some truly magical Aether Vials, and on the wrong side of some brutal Terminuses in my day, but it is nice that my final memory of the deck will be a glorious time when I cast Pia and Kiran Nalaar 5 times in the same game.

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Originally Posted by jcj7

I have my first tournament with DnT this week and am now strongly considering the red splash due to the large amounts of BUG and little combo in my area. Does anyone have a potential list with the banning sale now? I know Iatee has had a lot of success with the splash

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As Medea_ mentioned, Iatee's list from SCG is pretty good starting point, but you will want to change a few cards. The core of the deck isn't really going anywhere (though there will be some very big changes in the future, I am fairly certain). I am not certain about what an optimal build looks like, and will not for some time, but I have a few thoughts.

Palace Jailer in the main seems like a liability, while I think Pia and Kiran in the main could be quite good. My gut says Mirran Crusader's stock is rising, I could see 2 in the main. Pithing Needle is still a versatile answer for a lot of things but is less important with less Jace and Top. Sword of War and Peace could probably get the axe. Ethersworn Canonist in the main isn't crazy, but also might not be necessary if there isn't a lot of combo. All in all, I think that in the long term there will be plenty of changes, but for a tournament in the immediate future if you take that base list and think "I should change between 5 and 10 cards, I can ignore Miracles and think more about BUG and Elves" then you will be pretty close. In addition, if you have a rough idea of your local meta, then that isn't going to change all that much except for the Miracles pilots. People with multiple decks might pick one for certain reasons, and people with only one deck might play with their sideboard, but in general changing cards or decks takes both time and money. None of this will be an exact science, because this is the biggest change that has happened to Legacy in a long time.

If you can find a way to make P+K work in the 75 cards your late game ceiling is going to be very, very high.

I suppose the question with the new meta will be how susceptible manabases will continue to be to disruption from Magus of the Moon. Miracles was running Blood Moon in the side and manabases were already super greedy. Without Miracles, and if Painter does not reappear, it is possible manabases get even greedier, or at least do not get less greedy.

At the same time, TNN will become even more prominent among the mid-range UBx decks, whether BUG or Esper Deathblade or Bant Stoneblade or whatever. Jund probably actually gets worse for lack of counterspells to deal with combo.

Delver decks should get a boost, as tempo revives. Grixis is probably here to stay, but BUG Delver and maybe other variants, should be back. I don't know if Infect benefits a huge amount, someone familiar with how that deck was dealt with by Miracles would have to say.

The mid-range TNN mid-range and tempo decks share a common aspect, even if their gameplans are a bit different: enough draw and counter/hand destruction to limit combo, plus enough threat power to get the job done either with inevitability (TNN) or speed (Delver).

Elves and other combo will obviously get a boost.

Among aggro, I expect Burn gets a boost too, so back to mainboard Batterskull.

If Lands and Eldrazi benefit from this, as I expect they will since Miracles suppressed Lands and Chalice on 0 or 1 Turn 1 will become much better against, well, everything, I feel like Imperial will still largely be better than "Black Death" and Taxes because I expect to need to be able to attack manabases.

However, if the big winners are TNN and Elves, then this could be the time for Kambral, Consul of Allocation and Orzhov Pontiff might be the way to go.

I am tentatively sleeving this up, keeping 2 Cavern of Souls because I think resolving the humans in this build is still huge, especially Thalia and Canonist. I added a Plateau because of Sudden Demise. I would just remind everyone that there are cards not Orzhov Pontiff for dealing with TNN, just mostly not so elegant and recursive e.g. Holy Light. There is still also the question of whether or not 2x Cavern on humans plus 4 Vials allows us to cast Pontiff somewhat consistently anyway out of the sideboard.

Lands 23
4 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Plateau

Creatures 26
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Flickerwisp
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Spells 11
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard
2 Path to Exile
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgment
2 Sudden Demise
2 Rest in Peace
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pithing Needle

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Originally Posted by redtwister

Among aggro, I expect Burn gets a boost too, so back to mainboard Batterskull.

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I've been playing D&T since 2009, and I have to ask this in all seriousness: When has Batterskull ever been relevant in the Burn matchup? As soon as you fetch it up via SFM, they'll burn the little Artificer, and you end up with a 5- or even 6-mana equipment in your hand...

I don't think Sudden Demise is playable with 6 red sources. With 6 red sources you only have a 54% chance at having one in your opening hand. A lot has to go right for you to have one of those Demise + a red source + more mana. Realistically, I would probably want to play something like 9 or 10 red sources before playing Demise. The nice thing about playing red humans is that you get 4 extra 'red sources' with your Vials, and x number with your Caverns. Obviously Sudden Demise is a great card and we all want to watch Elves players lose, but you need to be realistic about how often you will actually get to blow people out with it.

This is also why I don't think discard is ever playable if you are playing a black splash. Obviously think splashing is great and probably just straight up the correct way to build DnT at this point since mono-w just doesn't have great answers to TNN/Elves. But we're still playing 4 Wastelands 4 Ports, and there are some limitations with that manabase.

I think going hard on pingers in red (i.e. >1, maybe consider 1 Goblin Sharpshooter again...) and hard on Orzhov Pontiff in black is probably a good place to be.

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Originally Posted by colo

I've been playing D&T since 2009, and I have to ask this in all seriousness: When has Batterskull ever been relevant in the Burn matchup? As soon as you fetch it up via SFM, they'll burn the little Artificer, and you end up with a 5- or even 6-mana equipment in your hand...

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Sometimes you'll have a spot, like EOT Vial in a SfM and they're tapped out, or you managed to get a Mom online first. Also I feel like 50% of the time I play against a Burn player I play SfM and they say "what does that card do?" so it's not like you can count on them to make the right play.

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Originally Posted by iatee

I don't think Sudden Demise is playable with 6 red sources. With 6 red sources you only have a 54% chance at having one in your opening hand. A lot has to go right for you to have one of those Demise + a red source + more mana. Realistically, I would probably want to play something like 9 or 10 red sources before playing Demise. The nice thing about playing red humans is that you get 4 extra 'red sources' with your Vials, and x number with your Caverns. Obviously Sudden Demise is a great card and we all want to watch Elves players lose, but you need to be realistic about how often you will actually get to blow people out with it.

This is also why I don't think discard is ever playable if you are playing a black splash. Obviously think splashing is great and probably just straight up the correct way to build DnT at this point since mono-w just doesn't have great answers to TNN/Elves But we're still playing 4 Wastelands 4 Ports.

I think going hard on pingers in red (i.e. >1, maybe consider 1 Goblin Sharpshooter again...) and hard on Orzhov Pontiff in black is probably a good place to be.

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Yeah, I really agree with this on pretty much every front. I think that if you splash red, you really need to cut Caverns if you want to play Sudden Demise. I'm not sure if pingers are better or worse than Sudden Demise, but the mana is definitely better if you choose pingers since Vial gives you 4 more ways to play it.