[Deck] Dread Stalker

first of : the CoB, as mentioned, is really not supposed to be there, its there because i lack the 3rd underground sea.

i know testing a deck, should always be done with everything at your disposal, but since i took the deck to a tourney, i couldnt really do that.

kinda the same story for thoughtseize, id love to play them, but i dont have access to them atm, dont mistake that for me thinking they are bad, i only questioned the sorcery speed vs the instant speed of spell snare, but that ofcourse if negated by the fact that thoughtseize takes everything, save a topdecked removal spell.


against the unknown opponent, i ofcourse wouldnt fetch an underground sea unless i had something to counter his wasteland etc. nor would i do it unless id need BB for a fast stalker, and hadnt got other lands in sight... it probably was a bad example, minus the probably...


also, i dont play confidants anymore, i failed to post the list i play now, but atm its pretty much identical with Hannis UBg list -thoughtseize, + spell snare (the money issue) and i play a 4th tombstalker.
17 lands have been surprisingly stable for me. with 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder i almost always get to 2/3 lands by turn 2/3, which is all i ever need.

about the sideboard - i cant really post it, since it is in a constant state of flux (the meta keeps shifting around, and i keep picking stupid last minute decisions..).
also, no, there are no CBs in there, since
#1 : i dont have sufficient 2cc spells for it, and
#2 : i dont have top in the deck...

my deck looks like this at the moment.

//guys 9
4 Phryexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
1 shriekmaw

//stuff 34
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 duress
3 spell snare
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 pernicious deed

//mana 17
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 bloodstained mire
3 Underground Sea (yes, i have a CoB in a spot here, hate me for it =) )
1 tropical island
1 bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp


the safe spots in my board consists of :
3 engineered plague
3 krosan grip

the rest is being switched around alot. i like echoing truth against ichorid, tormods crypt as well, some creature removal, smother mainly, hydroblast against goblins, DS, burn and all the other red threats out there, and null rod (i've seen abit affinity based decks around, and the only really scary thing i meet it doesnt answer that needle does, is deed, and against those i still have stifles and charms - thou needle is better against landstill with deed, but then you have tombstalker to give them something to think about, plus 4c landstill isnt something i see alot of.)


this is virtually a copy of hannis list, with some minor changes, mostly caused by my wallet.
thou i would play 15 disruption pieces as i am, instead of 16, and play the 4th tombstalker; it is just as nuts as the dreadnought.

if i was to put wastelands in there, i would probably go a completely different route, with confidant, top, CB alongside, for a more control'ish version. and then i think the stalkers would have to go, making it more into something that belongs in the dreaded fish post. and then either going with UW, UWg or Ubg would probably be the stronger deck anyway.

im really pleased with the deck going abit more 'suicidal', by going with the very tempobased disruption against removal, instead of trying to control the opponents manabase etc.

/mik

EDIT : ill be trying out some MD removal as well, i guess snuff out is the way to go, if it is needed.

This is my current build of the deck:



// Lands
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Bayou
1 Academy Ruin's

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
3 [ON] Smother

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Executioner's Capsule is a new tool for triket mage, this deck has got a lot of disruption vs combo decks, and moreover phyrexian dreadnought + stifle its a fast option for wining.

Heys,
I top4ed with the list below at a recent tournament (18 ppl) only losing 1 match against Affinity (2-1) due to mulls, manascrew (my bad) and 1-2 obvious playmistakes.
I won against Dragon Stompy (Nought), Dredge.dec (Nought), BG Sui (Stalker) and Vial Faeries (double Stalker)- all 2-0.

The mana denial plan was solid all day, as was the deck as a whole. The deck really doesn't need creature removal beyond those 2 EEs as pseudo removal and 1 Threats of Disloyalty in the SB. There's nothing I'd change. Some choices/experiences are outlined in the list.

"UBg Dreadstalker aka. BIG_TINGS_AGWAAN."

Critters: [11]
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
3 Tarmogoyf..........................no, it wasn't that I couldn't get my hands on Goyf #4. I just thought "Tombstalker+Goyf=not perfectly synergistic" and "11 threats=enough to smash face". As it turned out Goyfs were 3/4s more often than not, so I'm hesitant to add #4 atm.

Instants: [19]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
1 Trickbind...................I never needed Vision Charm to fill my grave!
2 Vision Charm

sorcery [10]
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Ponder

artifact [2]
2 Engineered Explosives........this deck craves MD solutions against Chalice and CB. Also, it's a neat sweeper against aggro.dec. I'll definitely stick with those 2 EEs.

land [18]
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand..........I liked the fetchland config.
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Tropical Island............no need for more green
1 Island
2 Swamp
3 Wasteland..................3 IS the perfect number.

60 cards

Sideboard:
3 Dark Confidant.................against control obvioiusly. Didn't face Control.dec; if I had I'd gone: +3 Bob, -2 Stalker, -1 xyz.
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
2 Extirpate
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle...............most of all S. Top!..and opposing sweepers.
1 Pernicious Deed.............."Grip#3" with a built-in sweeper bonus. 1 is max. due to Deed's high mana investment.
1 Threads of Disloyalty.......might seem random here. ToD deserves its slot because it shines against aggro control. Double blue restricts it to a single copy however.

Feedback is appreciated.

Looks pretty defensible, even though I love Snuff Out and would never cut it. I might not make many of the same changes, but there's nothing in there which elicits a "what the fuck?". I don't like EE, but I can see how it could be a necessary evil.

I wouldn't ever take out Tombstalkers against control. They're your single best threat, being the hardest to remove. Confidant plus Tombstalker isn't completely ideal, but flipping one isn't going to hurt against control as much as against other decks.

How did 18 lands work out? I'm likewise thinking of cutting two (from 20) for Tarmogoyfs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illissius

How did 18 lands work out? I'm likewise thinking of cutting two (from 20) for Tarmogoyfs.

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With 8 cantrips and an average CMC of 1,38 (counting Tombstalker as CMC 3, Daze as CMC 1, EE as CMC 3) PLUS 5 Stifle effects to potentially protect your non-basics I think 18 is the perfect amount of land.

Benie Bederios sent me a primer by PM, and I've edited it into the opening post. If anyone wants to help improve it, feel free, and I'll edit that in as well.

In other news, if I were to play games with the deck, these days the list would probably look like the following. Keep in mind that this is just as untested as the last one was.

4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Tombstalker
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Stifle
4 Vision Charm
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Duress
SB: 4 Seal of Primordium
SB: 2 Tarmogoyf
SB: 1 Island

If I expected lots of Dragon Stompy, the sideboard would include a bunch of Blue Blasts, but that deck hasn't been a significant presence in T8s for a while now. (And I would probably use the previous list, sans green.)

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

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I was about to say the same thing. It looks like Team America mixed up with Dreadstill (not that it should be a bad thing lately).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roodmistah

Has anyone else noticed that this deck and Team America are pretty much

-4 Dreadnought
-4 Charm
+4 Sinkhole
+2 Goyf
+2 Land?

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Pretty much everyone, I think ;).

Hi,

Time to post here again.

First of all:
Mistake in the primer. The boarding for aggro-loam would be -3 Predict, -2 Ponder, + 3 Thoughtseize, +2 Wipe Away, +3 Extirpate. Playing 57 cards and get a loss wouldn't be the strongest option.

Second:
For everyone who wants to play Tarmogoyf as 2/3 off, have you tried Sea Drake. It doesn't hamper with Tombstalker, it has evasion, always has a power of 4 and doesn't involve another color. With only 2 or 3 in the deck the drawback is manageable.

Kiwi: Your deck looks more like Dreaded Fish with so many creatures and more important Trinket Mage. Allthough it's a good creature it is slow and is hardly a clock. Your control seems light too, with only 4 Fow, 3 Daze and 2 Thoughtseize.

Illissius: How is your SB holding up. Seal over Grip is for Blood Moon I presume? The duresses are quite weak though. I rather play Dark Confidant in that spot. In the matches it comes in a) your life total hardly matters b) you probably side it for Snuff Out lowering your average CC. It also hurts to see that Extirpate is out, but probably the right thing... I wasn't very impressed by it.

At everyone: any testing on Relic of Progenitus as graveyard hate? Looks quite solid for builds that doesn't run Goyf( I fear I'm the only one though.)

BB

I just played the following build in a 40 person 1.5 tourney and didn't do so hot (2-3)

-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tundra - 3
Swamp - 1
Island - 1
Plains - 1

-Creatures(8)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4

-Spells(32)
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Vindicate - 4
Force of Will - 4

-Artifacts(2)-
Engineered Explosives - 2


-Sideboard(15)-
Engineered Explosives - 2
Chill - 3
Extirpate - 3
Pithing Needle - 3
Meddling Mage - 4

I am going to toss out white and put in green

-Maindeck-
-3 Tundras
-1 Plains
-4 Vindicates
-2 Engineered Explosives

+3 Tropical Islands
+1 Forest
+4 Pernicious Deeds
+2 Krosan Grips

-Sideboard-
-4 Meddling Mages
-3 Chills

+4 Tygon Predators
+2 Krosan Grips
+1 Extirpate

So the deck would look like this:

-Lands(18)-
Polluted Delta - 4
Flooded Strand - 4
Underground Sea - 4
Tropical Islands - 3
Swamp - 1
Island - 1
Forest - 1

-Creatures(8)-
Tombstalker - 4
Dreadnought - 4

-Spells(34)-
Ponder - 4
Daze - 4
Vision Charm - 4
Stifle - 4
Brainstorm - 4
Thoughtseize - 4
Pernicious Deed - 4
Force of Will - 4
Krosan Grips - 2


-Sideboard(15)-
Engineered Explosives - 2
Krosan Grips - 2
Pithing Needle - 3
Extirpate - 4
Trygon Predator - 4


Any suggestions would be appreciated but please don't say Goyf because one, he doesn't mess well with Tombstalker and two, I don't have something like $120 to pay for a play set of them.

Pernicious Deed is god-awful in a tempo deck like this one (so are the SB Extirpates, by the way). Bounce, LD, a 1-2cc beater, or some combination of the above would probably work better. For SB GY hate, your deck wants Crypt.

What's the reasoning for Snuff Out? Removal makes sense for Team America because you have to clear their Tarmogoyfs to let yours thru', but this deck just drops 12/12 tramplers and 5/5 flyers at lightning speed, so wouldn't disregarding removal be more efficient?

As a rule of thumb, I think this deck should stay away from 3cc cards to maintain a small lite manabase. That rules out both Vindicate and Deed. I suppose an exception could be made for Trinket Mage since it's so flexible and also doubles as a threat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

For everyone who wants to play Tarmogoyf as 2/3 off, have you tried Sea Drake. It doesn't hamper with Tombstalker, it has evasion, always has a power of 4 and doesn't involve another color. With only 2 or 3 in the deck the drawback is manageable.

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I think that's a very valid point. Splashing another color to play 2 copies of a vanilla creature that's often just a 3/4 here doesn't seem ideal.

Breathweapon, that is a fair point about Snuff Out.

I think Snuff Out is just there in case you can't protect your threat, or are unable to find one while the opponent beats down with Goyf.

But I suppose Divert could work well in the deck too. Its very unexpected, but is a solid way to protect your cards and counter countermagic. Spell Snare could also work against Disenchants, Seals, Smothers and Counterspells. Spell Snare is generally more versatile but useless against a lot of the removal you'll be facing though (FoW, StP, Snuff Out etc).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kiwi

This is my current build of the deck:



// Lands
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [R] Tropical Island
2 [UG] Swamp
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [U] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [R] Bayou
1 Academy Ruin's

// Creatures
3 [FUT] Tombstalker
4 [MI] Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
3 [FD] Trinket Mage

// Spells
4 [SC] Stifle
2 [TSP] Trickbind
1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [NE] Daze
1 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
4 [IA] Brainstorm
1 [ALA] Executioner's Capsule
3 [ON] Smother

SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [A] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3 [MI] Mind Harness
SB: 4 [7E] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CH] Tormod's Crypt

Executioner's Capsule is a new tool for triket mage, this deck has got a lot of disruption vs combo decks, and moreover phyrexian dreadnought + stifle its a fast option for wining.

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I really like this build of the deck. But I would make the following changes...

4 Tombstalker + 0/3/4 Goyf. Goyfs tend to be 3/4s and 4/5s in this too often.

0 Trickbind + 2 Vision Charm. Vision Charm works with Dreadnought, Tombstalker and Goyf, and costs only one blue mana. I don't see why you wouldn't run it and instead run a card that only works with Dreadnought and comes out a turn later instead.

0 Smother. There's just so many better options imo. Snuff Out if you want removal, Duress/Thoughtseize/Hymn if you want discard, Sinkhole if you want LD, Ponder if you want countermagic, Spell Snare if you want countermagic, Divert if you want protection.

I actually amn't sure if the deck should make room for both Goyfs with a green splash and Trinket Mage + 1 ofs. That takes up too many slots. With just Mage, you can play cards like a one of Relic of Progenitus that work against opposing Goyfs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nihil Credo

Pernicious Deed is god-awful in a tempo deck like this one (so are the SB Extirpates, by the way). Bounce, LD, a 1-2cc beater, or some combination of the above would probably work better. For SB GY hate, your deck wants Crypt.

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I have been play testing it and it has actually been working out much better then I thought. I rarely have to pop the deed when I have a dreadnought out because if he is swinging I am winning. I usually just use it to clear all kinds of threats like Ensnaring Bridges, O Rings, etc.

The reason why I use Extirpates instead of Crypt is to get rid of that one combo piece and strip it from their deck. I can't remember how many Aggro loam decks I saw at the last tourney and if you shut down their draw engine it makes it for a much better match.

I am not really worried about the goyf factor because Dreadnoughts just walk right through them.

I guess if I wanted to add another threat I would have to buckle down and get 4 goyfs. Are there anymore options in the "3rd threat" slot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Frank The Tank

I have been play testing it and it has actually been working out much better then I thought. I rarely have to pop the deed when I have a dreadnought out because if he is swinging I am winning. I usually just use it to clear all kinds of threats like Ensnaring Bridges, O Rings, etc.

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Fair enough, but do you run into so many show-stoppers in game 1? Also, since practically every permanent that can stop a Dreadnought or Stalker is an artifact or enchantment, doesn't Grip do the job better anyway?

Quote:

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The reason why I use Extirpates instead of Crypt is to get rid of that one combo piece and strip it from their deck. I can't remember how many Aggro loam decks I saw at the last tourney and if you shut down their draw engine it makes it for a much better match.

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You already beat the shit out of Aggro Loam because you're much too fast and evasive for them to be able to establish board dominance. Loam-fueled card advantage in particular is about the last thing you fear from them. The worst scenario for you involves them resolving a Chalice@1, against which Extirpate does nothing.
Meanwhile, Tormod's Crypt or Relic of Progenitus will let you beat Ichorid even when you don't have the turn 2 Dreadnought. And if you bring them in against Loam, you have enough pressure that keeping a mana open to play around it is actually a huge problem for them.

More often then not the Dreadnought gets Swords, smothered, Snuffed Out, O Ring, K Grip, the list just goes on and on. Most time I get to swing though with the Dreadnought when I stifle him on turn two, have FoW backup and turn 3 either have another counter or have a vision charm for evasion.

Honestly I usually just toss out the dreadnought as bait and finish with a later play Tombstalker which is sad. Maybe I am just playing the deck wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

What's the reasoning for Snuff Out? Removal makes sense for Team America because you have to clear their Tarmogoyfs to let yours thru', but this deck just drops 12/12 tramplers and 5/5 flyers at lightning speed, so wouldn't disregarding removal be more efficient?

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Look at it the other way... Sometimes this deck just needs to kill a creature, wether it's a Goyf who could race your Tombstalker, a Lackey, a Magus of the Moon, an oposing Dreadnought or even an early Exalted Angel. Because of the fast clock we can use Snuff Out...

At Frank... I kinda liked the UBw version. I think I will test that with some minor changes. Probably try Swords to Plowshare over Vindicate and carddraw/quality over EE, like Sensei's Divining Top or Predict. Without the Snuff Out's I even might try Counterbalance in the SB.

BB

I don't like the idea of splashing only for the green guy, even if, that's true, we sometime desperately need a kill. I would prefr the trinket toolbox. here is my current build, subject to change:
4 polluted
3 flooded
2 island
2 swamp
4 sea
3 waste

4 nought
4 stalker
3 trinket

4 Fow
4 daze
4 ponder
4 bstorm
4 seize
4 stifle
4 vision charm
1 relic
1 capsule
1 EE

sb (turn against red aggro decks and cotv)
3 echoing truth
5 beb (3 beb 2 hydro0
3 tormod
1 needle
3 bob

I'm especially not sure about the MD toolbox.
another idea would be to add 1 grindstone and find room for painter...

Trinket Mage is slow as all unholy hell. (Same with Deed, Vindicate, and the like). It could be that Dreadnought for four mana is the next best threat the deck has available, but I actually don't think so: four mana is a lot. For the most part, the only cards I want to add to this deck are the ones from Team America not already in it -- that, and more Tombstalkers. Alas.

This doesn't necessarily mean that slow cards are the wrong choices (only highly suggests it). The metagame can often force you to play cards which don't mesh perfectly with your deck's strategy (though this doesn't mean I have to like it). If that's the case, though, it might be helpful to mention exactly what metagame factors you're trying to address. (Or you could, of course, just disagree with me entirely.)