Strictly speaking, it's a zero-mana discard outlet for Incarnations etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
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Strictly speaking, it's a zero-mana discard outlet for Incarnations etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by frogboy
Not while it's rotting away in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
My hard drive crashed about a week and a half ago, or I'd have posted with some more testing results and variations long ago. Unfortunately, I'm now stuck on a library computer (library is closing in 15 minutes) and have lost the changes that I made to the deck.
Essentially, however, they were pretty basic. Following on the increased Wasteland/Genesis AND Stronghold/Snuff Out route, I wanted to see if Maze of Ith might not help against Team America, Dreadstill, etc. At a single slot, it was certainly quite useful. There were a few problems, however: vulnerability to Wasteland, mana issues (yuck, more of these), and a 61-card decklist. Of these, the mana issues were are are the most significant: drawing and playing Maze when you need a land drop is horrid. Since the deck already has mana issues, going up to 61 cards (and a dead land) isn't the greatest thing ever.
I've sucked it up, however, and it has potential. The deck itself plays a little more aggressively, what with all the Wastelands, and I really like that aspect. Not having to wait to get Loam and Wasteland in the basket together is REALLY helpful. The one tough spot is that it increases mana inconsistency, particularly with Stronghold.
So, as always, mana re-tooling is in order, I think. I must exit the library now, but I'll try to re-create my testing list and post it up in the next few days, as well as outline future possibilities and cuts that might help it. I think that this needs to be the main focus of our efforts for the next while, since it seems to be what's holding the deck back the most. The aggro and control packages are strong enough to stand on their own; beating yourself due to mana problems, however, is too serious to ignore.
I'd love to hear what the rest of you have been looking at these past few weeks, and what changes you might envisage given the most recent GP tournament results.
As promised, some updates. First, the slightly modified decklist that I've been testing recently:
Lands (20)
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
Creatures (16)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Wonder
1 Genesis
1 Stinkweed Imp
Spells (25)
4 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Snuff Out
1 Life from the Loam
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
3 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Academy Ruins
Now, that's 61 cards. Whether or not that's ideal is another issue; for the moment, I'm very happy with how the deck is running. The main difference (at least, the one not yet talked about) is the replacement of Ponder with Shoreline Ranger. Originally, I did this for shits and giggles, but I've come to like it. I'll give my reasoning, and I'd ask that if I'm dead wrong, somebody please take me to task for my idiocy:
Before, Ponder was mostly used to fetch lands early on in the game in order to to ensure a smooth transition to the mid and late-games via continuous land drops. Later on, it could be used to filter the deck for answers, or to pitch to FoW. Of course, it was also vulnerable to Counterbalance, Chalice of the Void, etc. Shoreline Ranger has the advantage that it allows us to search out land at any time, regardless of Counterbalance/Chalice, and you can search out that land with colourless mana--meaning that the proliferation of colourless/single-mana lands becomes much less damaging. That also makes mulligans that much more favourable. It still pitches to FoW, of course, and although it loses most of Ponder's search/filter ability, it also gives you a pretty scary late-game beatstick (of course, to be fair, six mana is ridiculously expensive). In testing, I've found myself with fewer mana issues overall, and I've found it much easier to make a land drop each and every turn.
So, I'd like to hear everyone else's input on that decision. It might just be a harebrained scheme on my part.
Everything else is pretty straightforward: Maze of Ith is maindecked to help with the increased proliferation of Tombstalker and Phyrexian Dreadnought (although TA runs enough hate to get around it, it's an extra stumbling block), and Snuff Out is (as mentioned a number of times already) a mainstay that fits into our plan perfectly. I also increased the concentration of Islands (and fetchlands) to complement Shoreline Ranger. Volrath's Stronghold is maindecked as well as Genesis because, although Genesis-recursion is preferable by a mile, having Stronghold on top of it all gives the deck extra resilience, and better chances of fetching/dredging what it needs. Wasteland hovers between 2 and 3 copies; three is better, but space requirements and mana concerns seem to limit it to 2 copies max.
My sideboard is radically different, but that's just a function of the kinds of decks that I've been encountering lately. Engineered Plague has come back because I've been seeing a lot of Goblins and Elves (particularly Elf Survival, which is a bloody hard matchup), and I've been tinkering with Academy Ruins and Engineered Explosives/Tormod's Crypt for fun/out of curiosity.
The deck seems solid, and it looks as though its mana issues are now largely overcome (an ambitious claim, I know). It certainly seems to play much more smoothly. An excellent choice for a large metagame. Winkwinknudgenudge. :laugh:
I'm told that there will be a Legacy tournament at a convention in Kingston, ON in April. I will be attending, and bringing this deck.
I just wanted to note two things: Shoreline Ranger is still treating me exceptionally well by guaranteeing land drops early on (as well as through Counterbalance), making otherwise crappy (colour-wise) hands keep-able, and pitching to FoW. I've even hardcast it a fair few times.
The other thing is that an eye has to be kept out for the popularity of Progenitus: it may well be necessary to find space for something like Fleshbag Marauder (I'm thinking in either Maze of Ith or Shriekmaw's place--leaning towards replacing Maze of Ith).
I know I haven't posted in this thread in FOREVER, so I felt I should add some content.
I hardly play magic anymore, but off and on and I get a chance to play a little. Anyways, I've done alot of work with Counterbalance Landstill. Aside from the fact that I think it is the best (read: most consistent) deck in the format, with answers to basically everything, I've taken a bit of that experience to heart.
Sensei's Divining Top is invaluable. With or without Counterbalance, it is single handedly the best card in Counterbalance Landstill. Now obviously this isn't that deck, but many of the roles this deck plays are similar. Top needs to be in this deck; it's far too powerful in a shell like this to go without it. Especially with Loam, since Top + dredge is very powerful card selection.
But if the deck is going to somehow fit Top, it might as well try to fit Counterbalance somewhere in its 75. If it can fit in the maindeck, it will straight out replace Thoughtseize. While Thoughtseize is a very powerful card, it does not improve matchups as significantly as Counterbalance. Now I know I've advocated against Counterbalance in here for some time, but after playtesting so much with Counterbalance Landstill, I'm pretty sure that it should be in here somewhere.
But what to cut? Between Brainstorm, Ponder, and Top, the 19th land (Cephalid Coliseum) can be dropped. Wonder is lackluster; not a bad card, but it's necessary to make space and it's the weakest card in the deck. Beyond that, it gets a little hazy. I'll go ahead and post a rough draft list of what I did:
U/G/b Intuition Thresh
Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
Creatures (11)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
Spells (31)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterbalance
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod’s Crypt
Same manabase, minus Coliseum.
I dropped two Shriekmaws in favor of 2 Smother/2 Edict for purposes of better answering the metagame; Smother answers Dreadnought, Edict answers Tombstalker. As a 1-of, Shriekmaw is still a tutorable recurring spot removal with Intuition/Genesis.
Beyond that, I dropped the Thoughtseizes for CounterTop, as well as dropping 1 Pernicious Deed to make room. With the additional dig of Top, Deed should be almost as accessible; with Counterbalance, we'll probably want to Deed less anyway. Deed is just there as a reset button incase things get out of hand. Plus, the deck packs extras in the sideboard that can be brought in when the mass removal plan is necessary.
I wanted to fit 4 Counterbalances maindeck, but I just cannot find the room right now. Like I said, the list above is just a rough draft to try and push this deck into a direction I think it should go. Counterbalance improves many problematic matchups, from Burn to Aggro Loam to Goyf Sligh to you name it. I do miss Thoughtseize, but eh, what ya gonna do.
The deck, however, DOES need 1 Raven's Crime maindeck. Now, I'm not sure exactly what to drop. Probably 1 Ponder since there's nothing else that I'd really wanna get rid of, but I think that decision would require testing rather than random guessing.
I really don't understand the direction you guys are taking this deck in, Intuition essentially serves as Balance/Top, Crucible/Waste, Fact or Fiction and a recursion engine all wrapped into one card, why bother running Intuition if you're just going to load the deck down with the engines Intuition is trying to replace?
As an aside, I think Nimble Mongoose is trash and Werebear is superior, you beat control by resolving Intuition and the T:G is pretty much invaluble for the deck's curve. Plus the 5 turn clock is really a big difference over the Goose's 7, and Werebear is big enough to at least trade with any non Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker or Phyrexian Dreadnought creature in the format.
I'm also 100% on board with Snuff Out > Shriekmaw, paying mana for removal not named Pernicious Deed sucks in this deck.
I'll be taking the deck to a local tournament/convention this Sunday. Incidentally, I've been testing the deck with Sensei's Divining Top replacing Thoughtseize, and I'm quite impressed with the consistency now. I also tried testing Knight of the Reliquary--it worked decently well, but seemed like a win-more solution, and the land-fetching was too techy for this deck. I also tried out Sower of Temptation and even Gilded Drake, but it doesn't seem to fit the deck so well: if the Sower's removed, real problems ensued for the deck.
So, in preparation for this tournament, I've upped the removal package by adding a Fleshbag Marauder and a Damnation (No Mazes of Ith are to be had locally, unfortunately), which should give a small measure of resilience against the random stuf that's guaranteed to show up, along with Tombstalker and company. I also snuck Eternal Witness back in. I've kept the Shoreline Rangers to ensure mana drops through potential Counterbalances and the like. Perhaps that's just me being stupid, but there you have it.
I do have a few questions about your general opinions:
1.) I don't own any Wastelands, so I'm going to try to acquire one tomorrow. If I can't, what should replace it? Ghost Quarter? Or just another mana-producer? I do think that having some sort of land-removal is a good plan...
2.) All I know for sure about the metagame is that there will be at least one Ichorid deck, and that David Caplan won't be playing (yay, better odds for moi!). What do you think an ideal sideboard configuration would be? I don't own any Counterbalances, but it might be possible to acquire some tomorrow. If not, then what? I fully realize that I've made some concessions for this tournament that make combo a very bad matchup, so the question is how to board against it whilst keeping space open for potential problem decks. I was thinking something roughly along these lines:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
3 open slots--Duress? Pithing Needle? Cabal Therapy? More Raven's Crime? (:tongue:) Counterbalance? Mana Leak/Counterspell?
So yeah, there you have it. When I finish up on Sunday, I'll type up some form of report (with a list) and let whoever hasn't given up on this thread know what happened.
When I was playing this deck (or decks similar to it), I had trouble with fast aggro in addition to combo. Deed was just too slow a lot of the time, and with thoughtseize gone you lose a way to affect them early-game. Assuming goblins is more common than zoo in your area, I would consider devoting a few sideboard slots to stifle.
Ghost quarter seems pretty weak here, since you really don't want to be sacrificing that kind of tempo. What lands would be so problematic that you would include g.q. over a color-producing land?
Well, I ended up taking sixth--out of nine. We all expected a much larger turnout, given the numbers that showed up to the first day of the convention. Ah well, so it goes. The good news is that the deck piloted very smoothly (aside from a complete clusterfuck in round one), and I didn't ever feel like I was at a real disadvantage--again, aside from the first round. I was and am extremely happy with Top, and Shoreline Ranger was useful for fixing up my makeshift manabase. As you’ll see in a moment, I sort of lack the appropriate fetchlands, so I had to make do with what I had.
U/G/B Intuition Thresh
Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Underground Sea
2 Forest
1 Bayou
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Creatures (18)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Shoreline Ranger
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Genesis
1 Wonder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Stinkweed Imp
Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
3 Brainstorm
3 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Daze
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Damnation
1 Life from the Loam
1 Raven’s Crime
Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
As I mentioned earlier, I was banking on a minimal combo presence and a strong creature-based turnout--I was basically right, as you’ll see below. I was definitely expecting some Merfolk and Goblins, and wanted to have enough removal maindeck to make my Plagues and Blasts redundant.
R1 – Mono-Red Goblins
G1: I have a strong opening hand, but alas, no answers for a first-turn Lackey (since I’m not starting). I try to play catch-up with Tarmogoyf and Deed, but Lackey brings in another Lackey, and I can’t deal with all that.
G2: I mull to five (no lands), which gives me Engineered Plague, Nimble Mongoose, Nimble Mongoose, Shoreline Ranger, and Volrath’s Stronghold. Horrible hand, but having mulled to five, I’m getting desperate. Besides, I figure that as long as I draw at least one land, I can make up for my slow start with Plague and Mongeese. No such luck: I play three turns, draw nothing, and have my face caved in by an 18-damage alpha strike.
R2 – Mono-Blue Dreadfolk
G1: I pound his face in with Tarmogoyf, Mongoose, and Gigapede.
G2: We both hit a standstill (not the card) within one swing of winning. I keep Topping into removal for whatever new creatures he gets to stick, and I have a Genesis sitting on the board keeping my own Tarmogoyf (Threads of Disloyalty—boooo) at bay, as well as a Mutavault and Reejerey. I have a Fleshbag Marauder and Mongoose in my graveyard (along with six or so mana), hence his hesitation to attack into Genesis. I try to cast a Deed, he counters it—and then on his turn casts Back to Basics. ARGH! With only two basics on the board, I die a quick death despite my previously superior overall board position.
G3: I don’t remember this game very well, but it’s another close one that I lose by a narrow margine.
R3: Bye.
R4 – Extended Port Golgari Dredge
G1: Tarmogoyf smashes his face before he can do much except cast some Llanowar Elves. To be fair, he tried casting Shambling Shell three times in a row, and I countered it every time. :smile:
G2: I open a hand with just one Tropical Island, a Mongoose, a Relic of Progenitus, and a Tormod’s Crypt. I figure that since I won G1, I can afford to keep this hand. Consequently, I am promptly clobbered to 7 or so life before I finally get another land in play. Strangely, he’s clobbering me with a couple of Llanowar Elves (one pumped by the now-removed Shell), a Putrid Imp, and a Stinkweed Imp. I cast Tarmogoyf with my new land, and it kills an elf and slowly starts filling the graveyard and growing (I’ve been using Relic up until now). At this point we arrive at a standstill that I’m slowly turning around with Crypt and Relic (I even cast Eternal Witness to bring back Tormod’s Crypt), and I manage to stabilize at 1 life. I wipe out his board, and slowly beat him with a Tarmogoyf.
Ultimately, this is how the decks placed (and, conveniently, this is a metagame breakdown):
ANT (it somehow survived three Stifles, two FoWs, and a Daze in a single game against Merfolk!)
Mono-R Goblins
Burn
Merfolk
Merfolk
UGB Intuition-Threshold
Lands w/ Elspeth and Moat
Ext.-port Golgari
Mono-black aggro
Although it was disappointing that so few people showed up (and I’m a little sore about losing to manascrew against Goblins, even though I might well have lost anyway), the possibility of a regular Legacy tournament was discussed, and may well see the light of day. That would be cool, even though I’ll be moving away fairly soon. I’m quite happy with the deck’s performance, however, and would gladly bring it to another (preferably larger) tournament, where it can hopefully prey on other Threshold variants. Considering that this was the Kingston area's first Legacy tournament, even yesterday's paltry metagame is a good start.
Cutting Ponder for Shoreline Ranger, cutting Thought Seize for Sensei's Divining Top and using "tool box" removal is not the way to play this deck. I've been experimenting with and refining this deck for awhile now, and in my experience, the more stream lined it is the more successful it is.
Here's the version I'm playing in Moscow ATM,
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thought Seize
1 Raven's Crime
4 Intuition
1 Genesis
1 Life from the Loam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Werebear
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Cabal Pit
1 Wasteland
SB
1 Gigapede
1 Stinkweed Imp
4 Tormod's Crypt
1 Zuran Orb
1 Academy Ruins
4 Blue Elemental Blast
More or less, I wouldn't change a card in the MD or in the SB (altho' I have additional SB space). You need Thought Seize, otherwise you have no way of forcing Intuition or Pernicious Deed to resolve, and resolving those cards are what just wins games. You use Force of Will, Daze, Snuff Out, Tarmogoyf and Thought Seize to win the tempo war in the first two turns, and if you don't just out race your opponent, you have the best late game spells available. Besides Genesis and Raven's Crime, you don't need any other MD singletons. You either tutor for Life from the Loam, Cephalid Coliseum and Genesis or Life from the Loam, Wasteland and Raven's Crime most of the time. You have a few iterations, like replacing Cephalid Coliseum with Raven's Crime or replacing Wasteland with Cabal Pit, but usually you just go for whatever can win the attrition war vs other decks.
I think it's really important not to get cute with Intuition, because the singletons in this deck suffer from the same effect singletons have in Survival of the Fittest, they just weigh you down. You should only use what you absolute need in the MD and then you can sprinkle in techy singletons game 3.
I think that I disagree about Sensei's Divining Top: it adds to the streamlining, doesn't detract from it. Both changes were largely made out of regard for my worse-than-usual IRL manabase, but I do think that Top adds quite a bit of consistency to the deck. As for "tool box" removal: there is none, really. I just tossed in Damnation for metagame considerations, and readily acknowledge that the slot could be put to better use with another card. Shriekmaw and Marauder are there for redundancy rather than for toolbox value: and again, to be fair, Marauder was just a metagame choice. I expected some silly decks with huge creatures like Progenitus; they just didn't show up.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I do like your list, however. It definitely looks much more streamlined. Some thoughts:
-If you're primarily using Thoughtseize to force through Intuition or Deed, have you tried Duress? How significant, over the course of the game, is life loss from Thoughtseize? What about replacing a Thoughtseize with either another Crime, a Duress, Cabal Therapy, etc.? I've always found Thoughtseize rather dead later on in the game, when you most need your life and your opponent has fewer resources that you want to Seize away--especially with the fact that you use four Snuff Out and 8 (!) fetches.
-Any chance of replacing 3 Ponder with Sensei's Divining Top and maindecking Gigapede for the last Ponder?
-Is Cabal Pit really that much better than Shriekmaw? You're going to have to tutor for it anyway, and Shriekmaw has a much wider range of application (as both removal and beatstick; also, its recursion dodges Counterbalance and doesn't eat a land drop).
-I'm skeptical of Zuran Orb in the SB with just 18 lands. How has it worked out for you? I realize that the deck wants some sort of life gain, but wouldn't something like Kitchen Finks/Golgari Brownscale/Darkheart Sliver/etc. be more reliable? You still have to tutor for the Orb, and you need Ruins to guarantee dropping it--next turn.
-Academy Ruins has such a narrow application in the sideboard... it doesn't look like an optimal use of the slot.
Anyway, your thoughts are much appreciated. I'll tinker around with the list that you posted, and see what I think after some testing. I expect I'll be making some of the changes I mentioned above, however.
Keep up the input! At the very least, it'll steer me clear of more ideas like Shoreline Ranger. :wink:
@Thought Seize
Discard resolves Intuition and Pernicious Deed where counters don't, even tho' discard can be dead in the late game, removing the opponent's Tarmogoyf or Counterbalance with out "holding back" resources is pivotal. IMO, 2 Life is worth discarding Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Goblins, you just don't want DCA in your difficult match ups.
You can't compare Cabal Pit to Shriekmaw, Cabal Pit T:B and removes Dark Confidant, it's awesome when your CA engine removes their CA engine and wins Tarmogoyf wars.
I hate Gigapede MD, IMO, Gigapede and Stinkweed Imp are more of an "anti-Crypt" measure in the aggro-control match.
Right, but have you tried downsizing from the full complement of 4 Seizes, though? With 8 fetches, FoW, and Snuff Out, that life is really starting to add up, which leaves me with the concern that these cards all become significantly less useful as the game goes on--and that's a fairly large chunk of the deck. I'm just wondering about your experiences with that configuration and alternative configurations, is all.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I'm comparing it because it's a tutor-able singleton that occupies a similar slot, with the aim of creating a back-breaking removal situation. The differences are significant, however, which is why I'm questioning the advantages. Here's a chart of what I'm seeing (which is by no means comprehensive: feel free to add to it):Quote:
You can't compare Cabal Pit to Shriekmaw, Cabal Pit T:B and removes Dark Confidant, it's awesome when your CA engine removes their CA engine and wins Tarmogoyf wars.
Shriekmaw
Pros:
-Can act as an evasive beatstick.
-Evades Counterbalance.
-Destroys creatures entirely.
-Easy to set up and recur: usually 3GB over one turn.
Cons:
-Vulnerable to stifle.
-Can't hit manlands, artifacts (Dreadnought), black creatures (Bob, Tombstalker).
Cabal Pit
Pros:
-Affects combat phase: can hit manlands, weaken a Tarmogoyf.
-Easier to set up and recur: four mana (taps itself) and one land drop a turn.
Cons:
-Dependent upon Threshold.
-Limited range of application (2-toughness creatures, blockers).
-Recursion eats a land drop.
-Vulnerable to Counterbalance (dependent on Loam).
Based on that, Pit's limitations seem like a significant drawback, while Shriekmaw's relative versatility looks like more of a boon. Taking the deck into context, the only place where Pit makes a huge difference is against Bob, and frankly, that weakness a cost that I'm willing to pay in exchange for Counterbalance-proof (almost!) guaranteed spot removal. To be fair, however, I do see the advantage in having it for Goyf standstills, although the threshold and land drop requirements make me leery of it as a plausible solution: I think I'd rather be making my drops and focusing on recurring Shriekmaw/cycling through the deck to break the standoff instead--especially if those standoffs aren't favourable to begin with.
Have I gone far awry?
I've been testing a list much closer to your own tonight (with the changes I mentioned above, and the addition of a few Nimble Mongoose), and I must say that I'm quite pleased, although I definitely want more testing experience before I say anything more substantial.
The reason Cabal Pit can't be compared to Shriekmaw is that they don't use the same slot, Cabal Pit is a land that taps for mana, therefore it needs to be compared to other lands that tap for mana and not a business spell. I'd sooner remove Snuff Out for Shriekmaw than I would remove Cabal Pit for Snuff Out, because those cards essentially serve the same role.
Between Snuff Out, Thought Seize, Force of Will and Fetchalnds you do lose a lot of life, but I'm use to losing a lot of life from Team America. If you don't face Dreadnoughts or Goblins, then I think cutting Snuff Out for Shriekmaw is more than reasonable.
I strongly recommend cutting Nimble Mongoose and keeping Werebear, because Nimble Mongoose just isn't big enough or fast enough and Shroud isn't very useful when you can just recur your threats. 4/4 T:G is just absolutely fucking awesome vs Merfolk and random aggro.
I never cut Thought Seize, Daze or Ponder, I'd rather be more consistent than more versatile. I only have Genesis as a hard to cast Intuition target, and I want to keep it that way.
I'm also aggressively Needling Tops, which is the reason I'm not running any myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Fair enough. For the record, what I'm tinkering with still had Werebear, it just has some Mongooses as well. I really like the Werebear, it's just that I also want a modicum of protection against Shackles, Sower, and so on, as well as an easy recursion target. But anyway. Thanks for the input.
IMO, Intuition->Gigapede is just as good as Nimble Mongoose vs the Control Magic esq cards, but really you're relying on Pernicious Deed to take care of that crap.
Yeah, the Bear is awesome, I think Merfolk has more or less killed Nimble Mongoose, because it's just not big enough any more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Gigapede is definitely amazing versus Control Magic and company, but Mongoose has the added bonus of easy recursion, which allows me to ramp up the aggression more significantly (plus, it's a quick answer to Lackey). You're right that getting it to 3/3 is a tad slow against Merfolk, but against the rest of the field, I'm still quite happy with them. Just running Werebear and Goyf simply isn't enough aggression for my tastes, and it's too unvaried a creature-curve for Counterbalance, Spell Snare, and company. Although to be fair, it's not like my own curve is that much more varied. :tongue: I definitely think that some sort of creature should be in that slot; perhaps Coatl will warrant some testing once it comes out. Depending on Coatl's popularity in the format, Wonder might also want to come back into the main deck.
In other news, I'm very happy with the re-introduction of Werebear: it fills the same sort of role that I wanted Shoreline Ranger to, while upping the early aggression. As a 3-3 split with Mongoose, it's working just fine for me, and I'm really appreciating the increased consistency.
I've also been trying a 2-1 split between Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy, but I haven't had recourse to it often enough to make a judgement either way. The life loss is certainly minimal, which is good, but there are obvious drawbacks. Cabal Therapy can be tutored up and used trickily with Intuition, but that's just a cute trick that I've yet to want to perform, much less need.
For reference, this is what I'm (quite happily) working with at the moment:
Lands (18)
3 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Windswept Heath
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Creatures (13)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Werebear
3 Nimble Mongoose
1 Gigapede
1 Shriekmaw
1 Genesis
Spells (25)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
3 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Snuff Out
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Thoughtseize
1 Raven’s Crime
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Life from the Loam
Sideboard (15)
3 Engineered Plague
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wonder
1 Stinkweed Imp
1 Eternal Witness
I've been working 60+ hours a week, no longer have the internet, and don't play magic much anymore. Given that, the decklist I'm about to post is untested and just food for thought.
Before I even post the list, I'd like to say that I think that BreathWeapon's tempo list is awesome. I think the deck can go both ways; either tempo based, or slower and more control based.
The list I'm about to post is the slower control based version:
U/G/b Intuition Thresh
Lands (18)
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Wasteland
Creatures (10)
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gigapede
1 Genesis
Spells (32)
4 Brainstorm
4 Intuition
1 Life from the Loam
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Raven’s Crime
2 Smother
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Pernicious Deed
Sideboard (15)
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Shriekmaw
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Tormod’s Crypt
The deck looks very mana hungry. How do you effectively use Daze and not get just as hurt by it? I would change it to Spell Snares.