Trample has also been mentioned on the rulings text of Eladamri... hence the "found and error on gatherer" i assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing4Five
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Trample has also been mentioned on the rulings text of Eladamri... hence the "found and error on gatherer" i assume.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing4Five
I don't know if it's a better answer, but it doesn't hurt to mention Burrenton Forge-Tender as another answer to Pyroclasm. EDIT: It is a creature, so you can search for it via Survival.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
Oh, there's also Shared Triumph and Gaea's Anthem.
Hope that helps.
Fecundity is another possibility, and could be great against other stuff like Wrath of God, Pernicious Deed, Damnation, EE, Perish, etc. That could be really solid, but Absolute Law at least assures I keep my threats in play, not hopefully drawing into more.
I'll have to test both of them.
Something that I've been asking:
Is this better and more consistent than Glimpse Elves (wincon Grapeshot)?
I personally feel it's better since Survival shell is very consistent and has little dead cards. The cards in Glimpse Elves are dead without Glimpse or any of the combo pieces. This deck plays out as the Aggro role, beating with Elves + Lord even without Survival. I'm just wondering whether this is more competitive than any Glimpse version of Elves.
It's placed in more events than Glimpse Elves has, and has just as many options of WinCons (Glimse Elves being able to Grapeshot, Tendrils, Chants during upkeep and swing with the horde, etc.) as the Survival version, and both can play the beatdown roll. I think the Glimpse version is a bit more fragile, however, but that is currently backed by results.
Something that I've been wanting to ask. Why not run Regal Force as a one-off in the deck?
It gives you steam in a deck that churns out mana so fast. Imagine the situation:
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote = Infinite mana = win through huge elves
Survival + Priest + Symbiote + no Mirror = try to chain into multiple Priests/Symbiote/Messengers and win
Survival + Priest + Mirror + Symbiote + Regal Force = lol
But in general, I'm not sure whether Regal Force is needed, but it seems that if you resolved on without survival in this deck, you get a lot of steam back. Maybe it's good in the sideboard against boardsweepers? If somehow we are able to include Regal Force without screwing the decklist too much, it might be possible to pack a Grapeshot as well when we draw into it :P
It's probably a bad idea, but just a thought
Has Nullmage Sheperd been considered as an Survivable answer to CB? It's Elf, dodges CB, and it's reusable. Too good, I mean, too slow?
The deck feeds on elf synergies, not combos really, that's just a bonus. There's no room for that stuff nor any need. The cards you mentioned are weak on their own in any case, and don't help you unless you already have a good position. This deck functions differently than glimpse of nature builds.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
Just wondering because I am playing Glimpse Aggro, not Glimpse + Grapeshot, so my list is similar to the Survival list except with the Glimpse engine. The idea is beatdown with 8 lords on turn 3. In my version, I run 4 Messengers and play similarly to this deck, but the deck only goes off with the Heritage+Sentinel engine.
Looking at the two decks, I feel that this is more competitive, because in Glimpse Elves, Heritage and Sentinel are pretty bad cards if the engine fails, and in the strict combo Glimpse Elves, you don't even get beats. I run Glimpse aggro which compensates for an aggro plan.
Looking at this list, it seems that it's a much better version of my Glimpse aggro, and has the potential to go nuts even without Survival. I was just thinking of Regal Force because in my Glimpse aggro list, I run 1, tutored by Pact (funny how Survival is so much better a tutor than Pact is), and Regal Force has always given the deck steam even if you're not winning, but I can see why we shouldn't run it. It's win-more, and does nothing when you're losing, with zero creatures on board. There are time though when you have 3-4 creatures on board without any chance of chaining into more creatures or comboing, where Regal Force helps a little. But I guess space is tight and it's not a good slot.
In my Glimpse aggro list, Wren's Run Packmaster is amazing. From my experience, I can say that Championing Perfect is a good play against decks that pack mass removal. It seems a waste to lose the pumps from Perfect, but it allows you to recover fast after a mass sweep as Perfect returns to put more 2/2 elves into play. My original Glimpse list ran Priests + Packmaster, which is a very good win con, and I advocate that Packmaster needs to be at least a 1-off in the deck as a mana sink.
I think we can write the matchup against Goyf Slight as very unfavorable.
I've been testing against it and it was a total slaughter. As long as your opponent knows what he is doing (burn all the early mana elves instead of keeping his spells for the combo pieces), you can't beat this deck.
I was testing Fecundity in the board, but that doesn't do the matchup good. Turn 3 is too slow to save your early board and after that, the opponent gains a lot of advantage too with Fanatic, Marauder and blocking creatures.
Since a lot of the other sweepers can be blocked otherwise (Teeg and Grip), I'm really temped to advocate Absolute Law in the board over Fecundity. Most of the other Matchups which use sweepers are favorable anyway, the only decks I've really had problems with so far are either combo, Landstill and decks which pack a lot of burn.
Especially Devastating Dreams is a card which really hoses us, if we can't save our lands, we should at least be able to save our other sources of mana from turn 2.
Here is the sideboard I use at the moment (non ESG build):
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Choke
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Magus of the Moon (I'm really thinking about switching this one for Caller)
1 Gaddock Teeg
I'm sure it's been discussed before, but what about Wirewood Herald over say, Messenger in the deck? The advantage I see is that it's got a great Moat potential; if you kill it, can I just get the last combo piece I need and kill you? It also grabs Caller of the Claw in the face of removal. I'm not sure if there's a specific elf outside of maybe a Lord that you want to grab with the guy; he does get Crib Swap and Inversion and Colossus though.
Messenger is one of the key cards of the deck. It's the only card that provides CA outside of Survival, and with Survival it's one of the most important cards as well. The deck often wants to play aggressively, and Herald doesn't help in the least with that, as it will just sit there and attack for one instead of getting you real beaters. And since there are no bombs that Herald can fetch (except Caller against Pyroclasm), getting 2-3 random Elves is usually better than getting 1 specific Elf.
On another note, I'm trying out Elvish Lyrist (one main, one in the board). With Survival (and Anger), it gets rid of enchantments for two mana less than Acolyte. It can also come down before CBalance or Standstill, very important. And I've given up on the combo matchup altogether, because I don't want to dedicate 4-5 otherwise "useless" slots to make a horrible pre-board matchup into something like 60/40 maximum post-board, which is still bad odds. I've filled up the space with Magi of the Moon (the Landstill matchup isn't easy), and Viridian Shamans (against Jitte/Swords, Chalice/Trinisphere, Noughts etc).
I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.
I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.
Does that work? It seems to me that by the time your critters hit the yard and Fecundity might be able to trigger, Fecundity is also out of play and thus unable to trigger. Same with EE for 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Di
It still triggers. It's basically the same scenario you'd get back in Mirrodin block Standard when Akroma's Vengeance wiped out Affinity's board when Disciple was in play, and they'd still lose life.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
It's rather irrelevant now because I'm almost dead set on Absolute Law. After the pounding I took from Aggro Loam the other day (Seismic Assault SUCKS. So does DD) having pro-red is absolutely huge. And it just stops all other removal beyond Swords and Snuff Out cold. I've been liking it a lot.
This is correct. I tried 4 ESG running the 4th over a land, and I ended up opening a few hands without a land but an ESG instead, where they would've been incredible hands if it was a land. I've really liked 3, primarily because of first turn Wren's Run Vanquisher and Priest of Titania. A couple days ago I had a turn 2 win against Goblins with the following hand:Quote:
I was toying around with ESGs, and I have to say, 3 is the right number in a 17-18 land build. ESG allows you to play a turn 1 Survival if you wanted to, but most importantly, it's great against Dazes. In the synergy with the deck, Messenger flipping ESG is better than flipping lands, and ESG also works great in synergy with Survival, acting as either a mana source for discarding, or a discard outlet itself.
I tested 4 ESG but wasn't too happy with the high frequencies of land + ESG. I think 3 is the right number to go. Also, ESG is great with the sideboard against combo, allowing you to drop a turn 1 Teeg/Thorn, which is a great help against ANT.decs.
Fetchland
Priest
ESG
Quirion Ranger
Mirror Entity
Wirewood Symbiote
Anger
I was on the play, and opened with the fetch grabbing Savannah, remove ESG and casting Priest. They opened with an Aether Vial. I untapped, drew another Priest, played Quirion Ranger, added GG, returned the Savannah to untap Priest, replayed the Savannah, tapped it casting Mirror Entity, tapped the Priest for GGG, played the Symbiote and went off. It was awesome.
Not saying it'll happen often as you need a lot to do it, but it's a definate possibility now.
This is the list I'm planning on playing in a tournament with first price the trip to the GP tomorrow. I think it really is a nice rogue deck, which is pretty strong overall.
3 Forest
3 Taiga
3 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Anger
1 Wood Elves
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
4 Priest of Titania
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Fyndhorn Elves
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Imperious Perfect
4 Elvish Champion
3 Wren's Run Vanquisher
1 Thornweald Archer
4 Sylvan Messenger
3 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Quirion Ranger
2 Mirror Entity
Sideboard:
3 Orim's Chant
3 Krosan Grip
3 Absolute Law
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Gaddock Teeg
I realise I play 61 cards at the moment, but I've only recently included the 3 ESG's and I'm not sure what to cut. From my list it were a Forest and a Fyndhorn, however I feel the rest of the maindeck is pretty fixed as it is. The mana hasn't been a problem yet (from cutting the Forest).
I am however considering to cut a Taiga for another Forest, just to evade non-basic land hate. When you want to enable haste, you already have a survival in play to discard Anger, you can always search for a Wood Elves if you need a Taiga.
I have absolutely no clue what to expect from the meta, so I kept the sideboard I'm most comfortable with, which should be decent in a unknown meta.
Do people have any last minute thoughts, tips or rants?
I am currently testing the deck with 18 lands, two of which are Wastelands. Some observations I made:
- After initially omitting Wood Elves, Di is absolutely right in saying that it's a necessary evil as a one-of. I failed to combo out because of lacking a white source for Entity more than once.
- Wastelands are nice to have, but as this deck has no way of manipulating it's draws I sometimes found myself short of colored mana. I am therefore considering adding a 7th Fetchland to increase the probability to find my colored (read: red & white) manasources.
- Inconsistency issues: some draws just fold to a simple combination of StP + EE whitout applying any pressure.
- Because of my testing results so far I strongly recommend not to play with less then 17 lands. When keeping Cradle you should at least add an additonal fetchland.
I think 17 lands with 3 Heath, 3 Foothills, 3 Savannah, 2 Taiga (yes 2 since you only need it for Anger, but increasing the non-basic manabase screws you over to Wastelands + BtB) 1 Gaea's Cradle, 5 Forest has been close to optimal in my testing.
3 ESG is definitely the way to go. I dropped to 16 lands and 4 ESG and was having problem hitting the 2nd land on turn 2 consistently.
Wood Elves is a must. Not just to grab white for Entity, but if your board isn't threatening e.g. 2 Priest + mana elves + Symbiote + Wood elves, you can go on and bounce woodelves entapping priests to grab a ton of lands, thinning the deck a little. But yeah, grabbing that extra land is crucial since the combo requires a tight 3 mana to pull out infinite mana.
@ Atwa's decklist
I'd cut the Thornweald Archer for another Vanquisher. After a lot more testing, I came to the conclusion being able to block flying is near-irrelevant because if they have a Tombstalker in play they're either going to have to block or race, both of which puts them in a bad position. Vanquisher is absolutely HUGE in almost every single matchup due to him being an undercosted beater with an amazing ability attached. I've had him FoW'd a lot due to this.
Cutting a Taiga for a Forest is the right call here. Given you can find Taiga with Wood Elves, it's not an issue, and gives you better resistance against your own Magus of the Moon.
I'd try to stray away from 61 cards here but if you want to keep it the way it is that's fine. If you're going to cut anything though it'd be the Packmaster, but either way it's up to you.
Your sideboard is solid too, but I really strongly suggest 4 Krosan Grip. It's the most important board slot you have and given the matchups you'll bring it in you want to draw as many as possible.
@ Other comments
- Wood Elves has to stay. We've all talked about it before, glad everyone is in agreement here. I've had a couple games where I had something like turn 2 Priest followed by 1-2 Symbiote and Wood Elves on turn 3, and by turn 5 I pulled every land out of the deck. That is huge in turning your deck into having insanely strong draws the rest of the game and making Messenger 100x better.
- Wasteland is something I don't know if I'll end up running, because it would compete in the ESG slot, and in the process bump my land count up to around 18-19. I really like ESG in the deck, and it's way too hard to find room for both ESG and Wasteland without doing damage to the manabase. Ideally you could, but it'd cause consistency issues.
I went 1-3 drop in the tourney.
I was playing the list posted above except for:
-1 Taiga
-1 Thornweald Archer
+1 Forest
+1 Wren's Run Vanquisher
Round 1: WBGb Threshold??
Game 1:
I drop a few guys and went aggro, he dropped a Confidant with which he revealed a FoW and a Mystic Enforcer, GG.
Game 2:
I take a land with only Cradle as land and mulligan int a hand with no land, a ESG and 2 Fyndhorns. I decide to take the risk and keep it. The first Fyndhorn get's Dazed. I draw a land and the second one also get's Dazed. I never stabalize before the Goyfs come in.
Game 3:
I go aggro again and here the forestwalk proved itself, there was nothng he could do against 2 Champions and a Perfect.
Round 2: Aggro Loam
Game 1: I have a very decent start, but I overextend a little and the guy goes Burning Wish into Perish, clears my board and I die from Crusher beatdown.
Game 2: I land a turn 2 Absolute Law, which he didn't expect, and I managed to keep him off my back for a while, while attacking. But also here he get's Burning into Perish and that's game.
Round 3: Zoo
Game 1: He burns away my champions and beats down with Apes, Nactals and Goyfs, which is too much before I can stabilize.
Game 2: I went for the beatdown route again. Again this deck shines against people stupid enough to play their own forests.
Game 3: Very hard game. He got the quick start and had, 2 Apes and a Jotun Grunt in play on turn 3. He also had Bolted 2 Vanquisers in the same time. I landed a Survival and went for Anger and a Vanquisher, forgetting I needed to reveal an Elf, so I couldn't play it. I should instead just have went for the Magus instead, which would have saved me the game. His next plays were Jotun Grunt and 2 Goyfs. I tried to excape from that sitation by playing Messenger, but I revealed 4 fetchlands. I die.
Round 4: AtN
Game 1: I wasn't sure what he was playing, so I went aggro on him. Turn 3 I swing in for 10 damage and he shrugs. I should have expected what was comming, since he went off next turn.
Game 2: Turn 1 Forest, he went tundra ->go. During my upkeep Orim's Chant, so I couldn't play the Magus I mulliganed into and went of next turn.
After this I decide to drop and visit the dealer, where I spend the next 2 hours.
All in all I feel the deck is very decent. I just got unlucky with my matchups (AnT and Aggro Loam) and made a few mistakes myself, which against the Zoo player costed me the game.