[M10] General Discussion on Rules Changes

I'm ok with those rules. I also believe that not being able to own beginners with basic tricks is the real reason why you are so disappointed by the combat damages.

At least, we'll see less fanatics. And that's a very good thing IMO.

I would understand that Bryant Cook or Isamaru would be pissed off by these new ruling that fuck up at least a part of their baby decks. But apart from that...

I know we are ancient, but we don't need to be conservative.

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

I know we are ancient, but we don't need to be conservative.

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Are you sure you're French? You already had my doubt when you came in here speaking perfect English :wink:.

Anyway, my feelings towards this are similar to my feelings about the B/R list: why fix what isn't broke?

They argument they need to simplify the rules because when casual players start playing tournaments they may find out they've been doing it wrong. That's some pretty bad argumentation if you ask me and by no means justifies the huge impact it will have on the game. For instance, they estimate mana burn doesn't matter in 99.9% of the games. Well, how often have you floated a mana from your Tundra for instance, when it was being Wasted, just to see it burn. Same goes with depleting pools at end of steps and combat damage. They argue combat won't change unless you have a trick up your sleeve - isn't that what makes Magic interesting? Having a trick up your sleeve?

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I don't see how you'll ever equip a Jitte to a Sakura, block, sac AND get counters though.

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I punted that.

You..... fuckers. I was with your condescending rule changes until I got to the combat part. A lot of the other changes actually DO make sense. But this is a change I cannot forgive. This ruins much of the finesse of combat and nerfs a whole crapload of cards.

Lets take a look at goblins now, shall we?

Fanatic: Nerfed to shit. (Replace with Frogtosser)
Siege-Gang: Nerfed badly.
Sharpshooter: Collateral-damage nerf.

Do you think of we revolt enough that they would actually revert this change? I mean, I know we are all a bunch of LOVING DRIVELING MORONS who couldn't POSSIBLY comprehend the COMPLEXITY of these changes, but even morons have power in numbers (Bush was elected again).

I don't care what cards they nerf with this change, because some nerfs will happen with any major rule change. I don't care if certain decks become less viable, because that will happen whenever cards get nerfed. What I care about is that they are removing a fun part of magic.

Manaburn isn't that fun. Floating mana through your draw step isn't amazingly fun in and of itself. Being able to think of nifty combat tricks, to try and set up situations where you can 2-for-1 your opponent with little creatures, that is fun. Stacking combat damage gives red and green decks more opportunities to outplay their opponent, to remove the "stupid" from "stupid aggro".

I trust that wizards has reasons for doing the things they do, but they better have a very good reason for removing some of the fun from their game.

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Originally Posted by rleader

I logged onto MTGO tonight and in the casual chat place, a guy called WotC_Matt was dropping pearls of wisdom behind a corporate grin.

Some "highlights":



I think the italicized portion is the more curious assertion.

The flavor section probably the least curious: that way they get to duck how fucking thematic mana burn was.

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ehh. i noticed also the only posts in support of the rules change at the mothership site all happened to be people that signed up june 2009.

And here i was thinking magic was a fun escape from the Orwellian reality I live in.

The simple solution would to have just say u can only sac before combat damage, or if the creature is gone after combat damage no damage goes on the stack, something to that effect. if they were so concerned about sakura tribe elder doing damage to a creature. The real puzzling thing is mike flores and all those writers LOVED the elder. I remember them explaining that ability to death. Also I remember getting in a huge argument over how this works with my friend (but he is kinda dense too).

I'm pretty sure this has more to do with them releasing magic on X-box more then anything. They want new virtual players. and if u ever ventured into a halo chat room u know there are some REAL numbskulls on there.

PS i apologize for the crap grammar as of late. i broke my arm and i am typing with my left hand.:tongue:

EDIT: I know this is getting way more deep and political then i should ever get on a magic forum, but max keiser an in the know economist suggests online speculation and gambling will be the next Economic bubble right after the bailout bubble. So in the next couple of years we could very well see a large influx of xbox and online players using it to gamble. And I just got the red rings of death :)

I was initially inclined to disagree with some of the rule changes for the simple sake of resisting change, but I could see how changing the timing of mulligans and clarifying the vocabulary of the game made sense. I could see why eliminating mana burn would simplify the game, which was potentially justifiable, even with a loss of flavor.

I also agree that playing weird combat tricks with damage on the stack is unintuitive, and perhaps in the long term, it makes more sense now that damage no longer uses the stack. But in order to do so, they completely and needlessly added too much complexity to the combat step. Assigning order of blockers? No longer being able to assign damage as you want? Extra clauses for deathtouch? All for the sake of not completely nerfing damage prevention abilities like Healing Salve (which are completely irrelevant anyway)? What the fuck.

Lifelink seemed like a reasonable change. Until I read this:

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As with deathtouch, this will incur functionality changes in some cards and errata (actually, un-errata) in others. If a card was printed with the word "lifelink" on it, its functionality will change to the new lifelink. However, a bunch of cards were printed with the ability "Whenever [this permanent] deals damage, you gain that much life" on them and got errata to say "lifelink" a couple of years ago because the two abilities were equivalent. Now that they're not, those cards will be reverted to their original wordings. They'll work as printed ... but they won't have lifelink. Only one card--Loxodon Warhammer--has been printed both ways. Since its most recent printing says "lifelink," it will stick with that and have the new functionality.

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Jesus Christ. How the hell do I remember whether Spirit Link or Exalted Angel or whatever other card was printed with the first ability (that does not use the stack) or the second ability (where the lifegain is a triggered ability that uses the stack)? Do I seriously need a fucking laptop accessible just to check Oracle rulings for something as obscure as this?

I can't for the life of me fathom why the changes to the combat phase were necessary. What was wrong with combat?

Also these changes are going to require errata being issued to thousands of cards am I the only one worried that they might fuck something up again like they did with Flash?

Yanno most of these changes I don't really care about/don't affect me/make sense/whatever. I would like to echo, however, the sentiment, that the combat rules changes are shittastic. Seriously wtf. This really makes Limited far less interesting. Ugh. And Mogg Fanatic just got raped. FML.

I finally remembered my login and posted the following on the Wizards forums:

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

I'm probably echoing a lot of people in this thread, but I wanted to get this off my chest. Not like it'll make a difference - the end of the article was basically a giant "Fuck you, don't bother to complain because we know better than you and are always right."

I've been playing since Portal came out. My first real foray into the game was in Tempest.

Like many other people from that time period, I survived the 6th Edition "ZOMG IT'S TEH END OF THE WORLD" rules changes. The game came out the other end with a much cleaner, more streamlined system that added depth and strategy where there hadn't been any before.

I liked that depth and the opportunities to employ new strategies. The biggest thing that appealed to me about those rules changes was that the creation of the stack allowed an organized way to respond to effects. The changing of timing rules allowed a lot of new strategy to enter game play. That was what I was after in the game; that was what I got.

Most of the changes in this rules update vary from livable to good. The simultaneous mulligans makes mulliganing for combo players less strategic, but that's a corner case. The terminology is fine, but it irks me somewhat that, after all that time I spent breaking my habit of saying "cast," it's coming back as official terminology. Mana burn was retarded anyway, and the only time it really came up for me in casual play was when some 'tard didn't want to lose to you, so he mana burned himself to death. It's sometimes relevant in constructed play (I play only the Legacy format), but only against a few decks that don't show up often. Overall, I approve.

However, there is one thing I do not approve of: the changes to combat. The combat phase was and still is the most exciting part of the turn, because it's where the most strategy and chances for interaction lie. Do I block his dude when he has red mana open? Is the potential two-for-one from that Mogg Fanatic worth it over the next few turns? Do I really want to attack with my X/2 into that Qasali Pridemage and risk losing a Borderpost and my guy? These sorts of interactions and decisions make combat fun, because there are a lot of different choices to make and a lot of room to think about the game and what your short- and long-term strategies are.

Simplifying combat is the biggest fucking mistake ever. Not only do you seriously nerf a lot of cards, but there's almost no thinking involved. The attacking player has almost no incentive not to attack, and the defending player has a strong incentive to double or triple block wherever possible to kill the attackers. Outside of some sort of pump spells or removal spells that can kill a creature before damage, there's almost no strategy involved. Trample goes from being merely good to being ridiculous, since any creature you might have with a useful secondary sacrifice or "save itself" ability will be long gone before damage goes anywhere. Damage being announced up front removes a lot of the guesswork and a lot of the math from combat. Sure, you'll still need to think a little bit before you attack just to make sure you won't get blown out, but there's very little reason now not to just be balls-to-the-wall aggressive. Limited, my other format of choice, just got really boring.

The outright removal of strategic elements from what is supposed to be a strategy game is ludicrous. I realize that retards, the "under ten" crowd, and casual players may not be able to grasp these things, but not everyone who plays this game is a driveling idiot, and it really only takes a few moments of simple explanation to show how these things work.

Not that it matters. The tone of the article made it pretty clear that (A) both Forsythe and Gottlieb regard all Magic players as morons, (B) that they're so sure they're right that we shouldn't even bother to voice our concerns, and (C) even if we peons do happen to be unhappy in large numbers, we're just going to have to bend over and take it for the sake of Gottlieb's ego penis. Seriously guys? I was hoping for better.

I am deeply, deeply unhappy about the combat changes, so much so that I don't give a damn what else they did.

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There are a lot of people expressing these sorts of sentiments over there. It's a damn shame that Gottlieb won't listen to us, though.

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Originally Posted by KrzyMoose

Combat Damage no longer uses the Stack.

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It is a sad day for Full English Breakfast. Now Phage will never see play. Way to go guys.

Not impressed at all. Everything apart from the change to combat I can live with. It was not broken, it did not need the fix. Is this is NOT Pokemon. What happened to Magic being the Flagship TCG? Not happy at all.

Terminology changes aren't to my taste, but they wouldn't affect the way I play.
Changes to mana burn are unfortunate because they remove decks from the game.
Changes to the combat step are as likely as anything else to make me stop enjoying magic. My favourite parts of the game, most of my best plays, several of my favourite cards and the hardest thing about playing aggro decks are all gone now.
The change to token ownership hoses my Hunted Dragon\Mogg Infestation deck too, and that just makes me sad.

The major problems can all be summed up, for me, by saying that Wizards are trying to remove any benefit we might have had from actually knowing the rules of the game we're playing. It removes the advantages granted by being good at the game and enjoying it and supporting it enough to learn the intricacies. You think Cephalid Breakfast is intuitive? No, and it's a deck I wouldn't have had a hope in hell of playing when I took up the game but around a decade later I can pretty much play it on auto. I love playing Magic, but the Magic that I love loses something with M10.

When 6th Ed changed everything I was very very new to the game and so when I got down to learning the nuts and bolts the rules we have now are what I liked. But every change here triggers a memory. A few weeks ago 0 damage dealt didn't count as damage. A BoP with a Jitte did nothing. Now that jitte gets counters. If there rules had been in place a couple of years ago I'd have lost a few more games. The presence of mana burn won me plenty of games during Mirrodin-Kamigawa standard. Block, Damage on the stack and Sac. I'm really gonna miss doing that.

I won't be quitting in a huff. But I might just lose interest and drift away. That'd suck.

Oh, and for the record: I can also remember having rules arguments with randoms on MWS that every single one of these changes has rendered moot. And every single time I'd been right.

glad I sold 95% of my cards recently. time to bust out that alpha-the dark constructed deck for shits and giggles because that's all the game is worth anymore.

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Originally Posted by CallMeLiam

I love playing Magic, but the Magic that I love loses something with M10.

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QFT

And just for Isamaru: I ported the combo into Affinity (scepters are nice cheap artifacts) and while it didn't make the deck better, as it were, it certainly made it more fun. Hunted Horror plus Cranial Plating is hilarious and recurring Drake gives the deck some serious reach. Drake will still work but without Horror it's kind of pointless.

Horror Affinity:

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4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Brass
2 Urborg, Tomb
2 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Gilded Drake
3 Hunted Horror
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Disciple of the Vault
2 Ornithopter
4 Master of Etherium
2 Myr Enforcer

2 Thopter Foundry
3 Despotic Scepter
2 Tel Jilad Stylus
4 Thoughtcast
4 Cranial Plating
3 Aether Vial
3 Springleaf Drum

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Okay let's look at this one thing at a time. This is the worst thing that I can think that will ever happen to the game if these rules are enforced. Mainly though is the interrupts. I feel that WOTC is trying to make everything like portal to make portal more attractive to new players. Portal is an okay set on its good day. How many times have you seen an avid magic player buying portal? Maybe buying the pre-constructed deck to get the Armageddon. How many packs of portal two do you think John Finkel has bought?

1. No more interrupts.
This is true. But this doesn't mean that counterspells will go away. Counterspell and all other old interrupts will be played as instants. This has very little effect on game play.

WHAT!? Think about it. Okay yes the one thing that pops up in everyone's mind is counterspell. Sure it'll work exactly like it does now. That means that interrupts will be the same right? WRONG! Think of Fork. Fork can now be responded to. That means that you can no longer Fork a capsize to capsize a disk before they can blow it. (Jim :smile: ) Also, since there is no longer an interrupt phase the fork is just as slow as the original spell if its an instant. That defeats the prupose of its original speed. This makes fork worth less monatarally and in play value. Also, does that mean that if I fork a spell with buyback (in response to their spell?) I have to wait for their spell to resolve or do I still get my spell resolution faster than theirs?
Next big interrupt, Sleight of mind. This can now be responded to. I'll cast gloom. Sligh says okay. I say sleight to red, he says in response before your sleight takes effect I will shock you shock you incinerate you. Okay I let sleight resolve now. Is this the intent of the card!? NO.
Next big set of interrupts. Ertai and his minions.(i.e. Disruptive student, Vodalian Mage, Mundungu) Okay I have out Ertai. I say go. Opponent says shock Ertai. I tap Ertai and counter. He says in response to counter (??) he shocks him again. I laugh at him as I twiddle Ertai and counter a second time. Again this is not the intent of the card nor the game.
Next big question comes from the new sleeping creatures. They awaken during the "successfully cast" part of a spell. The 5 steps of a spell are as follows: 1) announcement, 2) Interrupt phase(deleted), 3) Successfully cast, 4) responses, 5) resolution. Okay with the interrupt phase gone when does "successfully cast" happen? I am assuming (you know what happens when you do that) that WOTC has seen past this and is going to make the steps: announcement, instants(all counters and responses together), successfully cast, resolution.

2. No more Damage Prevention Phase.
This is true, but it doesn't mean no more damage prevention. You'll still be able to play Healing Salve in response to my Lightning Bolt and prevent the damage.

Not too rules guru'ish about damage prevention so I don't see much of a change here. I can see that it will get really confusing about people who are acquainted with the rules now. Player asks, "How can you prevent the lightning bolt damage if you respond to the lightning bolt? If in response the damage hasn't hit you yet."

3. No more Mana Pool.
This is incorrect. You'll still have a Mana Pool. However, if you wish, you'll be allowed to play a spell then tap your lands to pay for it.

This doesn't really have much effect on the player as much as it does judges. What happens then they announce the spell and then decide they can't pay the mana for it? Is it going to be counted as "showing your opponent your hand" which is not an infraction of the rules or misrepresentation of a card?

4. Tapped artifacts will function normally. (A tapped Winter Orb will still be turned on and have its normal effect.) This is true. We've decided to remove the rule from the rulebook and instead add it to the cards. Expect to see artifacts like "As long as this card is untapped, creatures can't attack."

This is really more like errata than anything. WOTC will probably errata EVERY card but if it doesn't I'm sure someone will find some ultra sneaky combo that will work because he can now use the tapped artifact because WOTC forgot to errata that one card.

Anything else I've left off? People voice your opinion on this to WOTC! This game is about players. It's us who love to play the game, its us that must tell WOTC what they are doing is not good for the game at all.

http://www.classicdojo.org/b985/bif.981126bge.txt

I think most of those changes are quite reasonable. And the new rules are much easier to understand than the old ones, so no one should have difficulties with learning them quickly.

These changes are stupid and done for a stupid purpose.

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Originally Posted by More and more stupid things

To figure out exactly where the problems were, we got into the mind of the casual player—not the player knee-deep in regular sanctioned play or Magic Online, but rather the one who plays our game at home, at school, or at the small local shop. We drew upon our own experiences and those of our co-workers. We ran focus tests. We went out in the field and played against such players—players who love, love, love Magic but don't have the need or desire to devote themselves to learning all the ins and outs of the rules.

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It's just like conduit a poll on how difficult is driving a car on a sample of people who only ride bycicles. That's absolutely idiot! If people want to learn play magic, than for the sake of god pick up the f*cking and free downloadable Comprehensive Rules and just learn to play, if you want to access competitive magic. If you instead want to play at school, home, or at your local store, then by all means REMAIN AT SCHOOL (where you better study, incidentally), AT HOME OR AT YOUR DAMNED LOCAL STORE! However, with the reconsideration of damage step, our mishra's become nothing more than a mere mutavault with the option of dpumping now and then. I stopped playing vintage after the b/r's of last june. This june will be a good thing if I don't stop playing magic at all.

Meh.