You missed the point, I'd take a 3rd Elspeth over Vengeant or Garruk, not over Wrath. I was talking about Planeswalkers specifically.
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You missed the point, I'd take a 3rd Elspeth over Vengeant or Garruk, not over Wrath. I was talking about Planeswalkers specifically.
In that case, I'd rather run a different Planeswalker rather than the 3rd Elspeth. I like the aggro approach with Ajani Goldmane who incidently also makes your deck less dependent on Cunning Wish -> Pulse of the Fields vs aggro. He also straight up defeats burn.
you're right, I was ponderin Firespout but I considered the mana cost relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
against mid range I should have an army of indestructibles soldiers or have already won via Ajani. Against combo I guess Spell Snare and Fire / Ice should stall the game for a while.
Anyway my meta, and generally speaking Italian meta, is full of aggro deck... event Landstill packs 4 Tarmo and 2 Tombstalkers.. :)
this is not landstill but ITF / togless
Some Landstills packed 4 tarmogoyf before elspeth became popular. And there are some players that still use tombstalker as a finisher.
Firstly: Thanks to everyone for their replies! It's very appreciated.
I know this deck has some choices kinda unusual, and I beg you to try these before complaining. There's some choices that you need to watch in game to see their real power: Vision, Forbid, Vengeant, Fire/Ice.
There is also somes that I perfectly understand why you guys question so much:
No brainstorm,
Only 22 lands.
This is for me a thing we all need to discuss to make this deck better. I'm currently trying a version with 4 brainstorms. After a couple of games, I must admit it served me once against Landstill (where BS gave me Elspeth to finish him with my 5/5 flying mishra's).
The reason why we run this number of Island is:Ancestral Vision. By the fact our draw engines is no more conditional, we became more confident to keep a 1/2 lander grip. To understand this confidence, you really need to see Vision in action in this deck. How many games we won by doing 1st turn vision? It's simply that good. This is the best argument to keep AV as a 4-of.
PW:
I think the amount of PW is good. Ajani doesn't fill the same role as Elspeth and can be played with an Elspeth in play (which is not the case of a third Elspeth). Elspeth is a win-condition and needs to be drawn once in the game (90% of the time, not twice). Ajani is a removal for 4 or 5 turns and then become an ultimate game breaker.
Since Yan has been playing this deck, he had top8 everything he gone to. In our local 30-40 players tournaments, this deck performs really well (and Montreal's legacy scene is not bad at all). I'm confident this decks can become a Deck to watch and I couldn't see it as non-established deck. It's a question of time and a bit of fine-tuning to become a really good deck in the metagame.
Thanks again for your replies, and continue to give your ideas about the deck!
P-M
Brainstorm also protects important cards in your hand (Planeswalkers) from discard effects.Quote:
This is for me a thing we all need to discuss to make this deck better. I'm currently trying a version with 4 brainstorms. After a couple of games, I must admit it served me once against Landstill (where BS gave me Elspeth to finish him with my 5/5 flying mishra's).
I don't think you can evaluate cards like Brainstorm or Visions by counting the number of games you won because of them. Those aren't bombs like the Planeswalker, who can win on their own, but support cards who can only give you other cards to work with. Their effect is to give you small increments of card advantage until it adds up enough for you to win, not to give you a win on the spot, so even if a Brainstorm doesn't draw you into an Elspeth at the time when it allows you to win, and only gives you some additional disruption in exchange for useless lands instead, it was far from useless. And an early Brainstorm that gives you lands or disruption when you need it doesn't win you the game (though it can keep you from losing it), but is still worth the slot.
You guys are comparing Ancestral Visions against Brainstorm, AND against Standstill. Visions doens´t take up the 7 CA/CQ slots. I can see some reasons to run Visions instead of standstill, but no single reason to compare Visions with Brainstorm in this scenario.
@ the yay-sayers, please adress some points that have been made with more words than "test it". Or "he is getting results". Anyone who can play a decent control deck can make T8... Anyway, points:
> The lack of brainstorm.
> Forbids win-more soft lock over Counterspell
> The reasons why Ajani is better then something else
> The reasons to include A. Visions in a so claimed "counterbalanceproof" deck.
> Has Fact or Fiction been considered?
> F/I in a deck that is supposed to win the Zoo matches? Why no other Spot removal like Edict or PtE?
> Losses versus Goblins? (not so strange, Jace and Visions are übercrap in that matchup and only 2 WoG aren't gonna make it..)
I am very sceptical on this deck, I find it hard to believe that there is a good blue control deck without brainstorm.
> The lack of brainstorm.
I play it, one of the best blue cards you can find in legacy. Auto 4x if you ask,
not only gives quality, but it's cheap and hides bombs from discard effects. Also great with Fetches.
> Forbids win-more soft lock over Counterspell
I vote for Counterspell
> The reasons why Ajani is better then something else
Because sometimes you need Elspeth AND something else to controll the battlefield.
Sometimes keeping that Tarmo tapped is the right answer. 3x Elspeth is goin to be a dead draw.
> The reasons to include A. Visions in a so claimed "counterbalanceproof" deck.
Vision is just an underplayed card and it deserves some testing in a deck that can use it well. Also with Merfolk and other blue tribal decks becoming more popular, we espect decks that play Vial AND Standstill so we can't use 'Still because everyone will play around it. But we must draw so.. AV.
> Has Fact or Fiction been considered?
Mana cost is friggin high IMHO .. we have already too many drop 4
> F/I in a deck that is supposed to win the Zoo matches? Why no other Spot removal like Edict or PtE?
I answer to this with my list. Pyroclasm, WoG and Humility can help us drop Elspeth and/or ajani and win. Fire can make 2x1 or stall a tarmo for a turn.
> Losses versus Goblins? (not so strange, Jace and Visions are übercrap in that matchup and only 2 WoG aren't gonna make it..)
This is why red could be better than black.
More pyroclasm/Firespout/Earthquake effect and we are good to deal with them.
Also, BEB.
my 2 cent
Ajani shuts down more than just Tarmogoyf and big beaters in general. He also keeps Academy Ruins, Dust Bowl and Volrath's Stronghold tapped. He contributes to shutting down one of your opponents colors in a multi-color deck. He can keep a Grindstone or Goblin Charbelcher tapped if you managed to stifle or otherwise duck its effect the first time it was used. There are a lot of applications that his free ability has in the meta we have today.
For a control deck a free suppressing effect every turn is fairly strong. Then you throw in the game-overness of destroying all of the opponent's lands and he's a really strong card.
Ajani is also important as is still removal with lifegain. In the matchups where his second ability is useful - it makes all the difference.
I've been tooling around with 'Walker decks and I have to agree with the assertions made about Ancestral Visions. Standstill has a nice synergy with 'Walkers, but both sets of cards require you to have a good board position before deploying. Strictly speaking, a good board position is an empy board position, and this is where the control deck wants to be.
Ancestral Visions gives a huge boost after turn 4 which is when the extra cards are really important. I would try 4 AV 4 Brainstorm to begin more in depth testing of its merits.
There is something that you need to understand, this is a new deck,with lots of unusual stuff that is hard to really know what they are capable of until you see these cards in action.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
>First, brainstorm is not fetchable with tolarian west. And AVis is a card that must be countered, so other control decks WILL want to answer the card, and if they answer it, it clear the way a bit for a planeswalker. Also, in some match up such as discard, when it lands first turn, it can help you recover from it.
>The point of forbid mainly that it doesn't have 2cc, so it makes the SpellSnare of your opponent useless. Also, when I've played agaisnt forbid, I've seen that it is one awsome cards when you opponents is going in top deck mode or so because it will protect your planeswalker, and they won't draw an answer to a planeswalker each turn. It will win some match that you will most likely have lost if you had Counterspell.
>It will help vs some match ups that, I think, might be hard, such as zoo. Tapping their goyf or lightning helix their Kird ape or Nacalt is really that good. Also, tapping some threats such as Tombstalker, Goyd, Dreadnought while your find another answer is really that good, and then, you can armageddon your opponent.
>What would Brainstorm give over AVis vs a counterbalance deck, except maybe that it cannot be counterbalanced Turn 1 ? It will get counterbalanced at almost any other point of the game, and I think that it is not worth it to cut AVis for brainstorm for only some match ups.
>I don't know, but it's kind of slow, and doesn't give you a turn 1 play...
>C.Wish -> Pulse of the field, EExplosive, Ajani, STP and wasteland can help
>I don't think that goblins is really played anymore to really fear it, in my opinion.
This is just what I think, my 0.02$
Obviously the deck was piloted by a good player who has had alot of success. This combined with alittle luck seems like a more reasonable explanation then (what the deck is capable of.)Not that i'm saying the model is trash,Quote:
There is something that you need to understand, this is a new deck,with lots of unusual stuff that is hard to really know what they are capable of until you see these cards in action.
but for all the resilience to spell snare that is talked about with this model one of the main components that seperates old reliable UWb Landstill and UWr ultimate walker (Besides color)
Is the very same problem you are attending to remove. Those spell snares your merfolk pilot was holding for opposing 2 drops doesn't just dissapear of the table when he/she can't use them initially. A spell snare in the early game does the exact same thing as it does in the late game minus some early tempo crushing. What i'm leading up to is that fire/ice is not a good answer for the problems this deck faces IE merfolk, fish, goblins (Yes it's still played, especially as larger scale events.)
Yes fire/ice does do tricks. Cartwheels even in some matchups, but if that dreadnaught,goyf, big threat little threat ect. ect. you planned to tape with ice gets snared your next line of defense is STP if you haven't already used one. Outside of that I do believe next in line is 2 ee and 1 veangent? This seems like your sacrificing your removal suit for additional plainswalkers (mind you that arn't really necessy or good for any sort of an aggro enviornment.)
Yes but it is the best card draw for the cost in the format.Quote:
First, brainstorm is not fetchable with tolarian west.
So what your really saying is that you only want to beat the control decks in this format which explains forbid, 2 jace in the main, and the ajani veangent action. The reason these cards work is because of tempo control, without that element you are left with losing to both combo and aggro.Quote:
And AVis is a card that must be countered, so other control decks WILL want to answer the card.
I think the problem here is that you don't have the removal suit in the early game to handle discard decks after they tear your hand away and outside of getting visions on 1 and possibly 2, the deck autoslides into this I must answer with my less efficient higher casting cost inevitable threat, which will get smoked by the more efficient easier to deal with threats that they bring to the table.Quote:
Also, in some match up such as discard, when it lands first turn, it can help you recover from it.
It is in this case that I truly believe standstill is just the better card, but I do love resolving visions at will.
Your argument for forbid is very much utility win/more. Theres absolutely no reason to protect your plainswalker to this degree as it will only lead to peeps focusing on cards that remove plainswalkers easier and then all your left with is a shitty board position, 2 dead cards and a counterspell for three mana. Confuckingradulations (This isn't meant to be mean, its just the thing I say to myself when Im in a board position where i've lost control of the game state with CA over quality.)Quote:
>The point of forbid mainly that it doesn't have 2cc, so it makes the SpellSnare of your opponent useless. Also, when I've played agaisnt forbid, I've seen that it is one awsome cards when you opponents is going in top deck mode or so because it will protect your planeswalker, and they won't draw an answer to a planeswalker each turn. It will win some match that you will most likely have lost if you had Counterspell.
Wouldn't more removal period solve this position. Why possibly answer the threat when you can just remove it instead. You have the option and we all know that zoo is a tempo aggro strategy that looses CA as you use your removal. Both of the cards that your offering fire/ice and Veangent do nothing but fog these matchups.Quote:
>It will help vs some match ups that, I think, might be hard, such as zoo. Tapping their goyf or lightning helix their Kird ape or Nacalt is really that good.
Does the fact that AV can be easily countered by Counterbalance have any merit? No one's really addressed that yet. Mind you, I think AV is a great card, I used it all the time in Mono Blue Control, however, I think its inclusion is contradictory in a deck meant to be comfortably unaffected by Counterbalance.
Yes, it's arguably easier to counter than Standstill. However, the CB matchup comes down to your 'Walkers being awesomesauce rather than getting AV to resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
So... you're saying that if CB counters AV, you just hope you resolve a Planeswalker and win from there? Yeah, that makes sense, card advantage is a little overrated these days.
lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
in their defense, they do also run Jace, which is, ideally, a 3 mana for 3 cards draw spell.
Thereby, MUC is/was a deck that runs/ran Force spike, Spell Snare, Counterspell and Force of Will to protect it. No Counterbalance is gonna resolve against that. Against this deck, only FoW and Spell Snare form your hope in dark times.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawon
Anyway, I will adopt the idea of this deck, build a list that I actually like, and run it through some gauntlets. I'll get back to this.
I've done some testing with a modified build that is currently being quite promising.
MD changes:
-3 Daze
-4 F/I
-2 Forbid
-2 Cunning Wish
-1 land
-----------------
+1 Snare
+1 Counterspell
+3 Brainstorm
+3 Lightning Helix (filling out the F/I slot way better imo.)
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Top
+1 Firespout (main)
-----------------
Some words on my changes:
Even though I changed 11 cards, the modified version follows the same approach. It merely counters a little less and destroys a little more, that's all.
Yes, I found Wish too clunky. If I played it, I'd have one more reason not to run Dazes ;)
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Helix is that good, the only reason I never ran them ever, was that I never played a deck boasting Plains AND Mountains ;).
To me the approach of this A. Visions.dec is quite simple: play Visions and keep your life total up until it resolves. Helix is MUCH better at that, while it also gets rid of lots of buggers that F/I doesn't (AND is a 2 in 1 - pretty much making Wish-->Pulse obsolete).
PtE and Snare follow that same logic: if we manage to control the early game, odds are we own that thing.
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Having played with Top in Speedstill, it seems like the perfect fit here. After turn 4 it is often the best topdeck and never random. I think the count could be upped to 2.
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For reference here's my current SB:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Meddling Mage
2 Dismantling Blow
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ajani Goldmane
2 Firespout
---
Cheers.
PS: I never would have thought A. Vengeant could be THAT good. It seems like every 2nd game I drop him I'm able to use his hilarious ultimate :cool:
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Edit: Here's the MD.
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Firespout
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Brainstorm
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Decree of Justice
---------------------------
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Plains
2 Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
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Edit #2: I think I'll swap 1 MD Crucible and that 2nd SB Firespout, making the Aggro MU quite favorable, and thus the remaining SB Firespout overkill. Any suggestions for that 15th SB slot?