Yeah, that was a brainfart on my part. So used to having all the creatures in the deck being saccable to NO I thought everything was.
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Yeah, that was a brainfart on my part. So used to having all the creatures in the deck being saccable to NO I thought everything was.
Hey, Mike Noble here (17th place guy from GP Chicago). I helped Matt Elias, the guy that updated the list to include white, a bit with his updates. I definitely endorse the change, especially since we now have access to Maelstrom Pulse (something that I would have loved to have for the GP, but oh well) and Qasali Pridemage. Here's the list that I would play if I had Legacy event to go to anytime soon:
Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Wall of Roots
3 Eternal Witness
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Hellkite Overlord
1 Progenitus
Spells
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Natural Order
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
4 Thoughtseize
3 Maelstrom Pulse
Lands
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
Sideboard
4 Path to Exile
3 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Empyrial Archangel
I haven't personally tested Dark Confidant yet, so at the moment I have no say on the matter. The fact that the deck already includes 4x SDT definitely warrants its inclusion, but not being green is a real kick in the junk.
It's quite the way i see the deck going. Why no StP or PtE? You're playing white so you should include 4of. I know most ppl prefer PtE with Progenitus but i tested and StP is better in most of the MU.
How come Wall of Roots over Werebear or Wall of Blossoms? Do you guys find that extra mana more helpful that a threat/mana tapper or a larger blocker with card draw?
What about this?
http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29980
Wasn't there a lot of chatter about this on the Rock Established Thread? Personally I like the simpler two color mana base. It's harder to get locked out of a color seems more focused on going for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al-ucard
Hi guys,
I've been playing Rock variants for a couple years now, and NO is definitely the way to go. There isn't much like a 3rd turn Progenitus to make your opponent hate life, not to mention the fact that it can steal games from behind. But I'm sure you all know this :D
So I thought I'd put up a detailed post for what I've been playing recently, (no offence or anything, but I feel the OP is lacking a little depth), as well as my feelings on the archetype in general. I've managed to win a few small (30 man) local tournaments with the list, popping into the top 8 a few times on top of that.
The List:
Creatures (16)
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Progentius
Spells (23)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Natural Order
2 Garruk Wildspeaker*
Lands (21)
3 Windswepth Heath
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Swamp
1 Plains
2 Forest
Sideboard (15)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Krosan Grip
2 Choke
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Empyrial Archangel
1 Ghostly Prison*
2 Gaddock Teeg*
Card Explanations
4 Birds of Paradise - These guys make what might be a slow and clunky deck into something truly competitive. It doesn't come much better than T3 NO > Progenitus, which as we all know, just wins games. Moreover, T2 Thoughtseize, Cabal therapy with the option of flashback is just crazy against many (esp. CounterTop/control) decks. What is less obvious about these critters, though, is enabling 3 mana turn 2; T2 Qasali Pridemage (with activation mana open) is great vs aether vial, standstill, and counterbalance, while T2 deed can be handy vs aggro (zoo, merfolk, as it will significantly slow their extension, especially combined with spot removal) or protection vs token generation a la Empty the warrens. T2 vindicate can really punish land-light draws, which many, many players (in my experience at least) are prone to keeping, especially when playing decks like CB or Thresh, hoping to use cantrips or Top to find their next mana source. T2 Finks vs aggro is awesome. Post board, it enables T2 KGrip, Ghostly prison or engineered plague (depending on your sideboard, of course). Lastly, the ability to dodge daze when dropping Goyf T2 is nothing to sneeze at.
That being said, they are terrible late game and I doubt I would ever run more than 4 mana critters. Noble Hierarch is a potential replacement (exalted = good), but the inability to produce black is troubling. Needs testing
3 Qasali Pridemange - These guys are awesome. CB, Standstill, P. Dreadnought, or Aether vial removal on a stick, not to mention they can own Factories if your opponent isn't careful. Exalted wins goyf battles, and is generally good in a deck like this as there are many situations where attacking w/ a goyf and keeping back blockers is a good idea (for example, the zoo matchup)
4 Tarmogoyf - you'd be crazy not to run these, but ironically I have been borrowing them from a friend (as they have now hit $60 a piece) who has requested them back and now I am a sad panda. Knight of the Reliquary fills in at the moment, but of course its just not the same
4 Kitchen Finks - I would be hard pressed to drop these guys below 4 copies. With the high proportion of aggro decks in the metagame (zoo, merfolk, goblins), these guys are the MVP, trading, gaining life, and persisting to stem the assault and gain incremental card advantage. + synergy with Therapy, NO. Also is a house vs Canadian Thresh, trading with mongooses and stalling out, which they are not happy with at all. They tend to be the main beaters of the deck, as goyfs usually draw the better part of removal from opponents.
Progenitus - The man, the legend. NO FTW.
The Spell Inclusions are a little more straightforward:
4 STP are the main reason to play white, and have proven themselves to be the best spot removal in the format. PLAY THEM
4 Thoughtseize, 3 Cabal Therapy - Discard package; Between 4 Thoughtseize, 4 STP and 4 Birds, there is almost always a T1 play, which the deck desperately needs to keep up with the blistering Legacy speed of today. 3 cabal therapy, rather than 4, because they are not a sure bet, unlike Thoughtseize, but are awesome none the less, especially with Finks or extra birds floating around. Discard is absolutely vital for NO protection; T1 birds, T2 TS + CT, T3 NO > WIN.
2 Sensei's Diving Top - These guys provide card selection that the deck sorely needs, smoothing out the draws and generally saving one's ass in topdeck mode. More and more I've been thinking this needs to go to 3 copies. 4 I feel is too much, though, as they water down the threats of the deck and are pretty much useless in multiples.
3 Vindicate - all purpose removal. Can punish land light draws, which gives it the edge over M. Pulse, and is another reason to play white. Can be a little slow at times, hence only 3 copies.
2 Pernicious Deed - the more I play the deck, the more I realize that deed is REALLY slow, and is a hog for mana. 2 turns to remove a couple threats can be a lot, but its versatility and flexibility make it a great piece of removal. Works well with Finks, not so good with BOP, but when the birds are in here for NO, they usually don't stick around and can always be pitched to CT before pooping the deed. I have considered moving them to the board, but since its an answer to a diverse set of threats, they have been holding onto the maindeck spot.
3 Natural Order - add progenitus, and win. 3 copies because you want to see it early but really sucks when you draw multiples
2 Garruk - these guys are a recent addition to the deck, and represent the flex slots IMO. I was looking for something that added to the threat density, while being good against a variety of decks. Especially good vs control, and can shit tokens for NO if need be. Additional Synergy w/ deed, as the +1 ability helps to get around the costly mana investment. The possibility of overrunning with Finks and Goyf is spicy, indeed. Needs more testing to earn a solid place in the deck.
A couple comments on the mana base - I used to run 2 copies of Treetop Village and 1 Volrath's stronghold, but the former's CIP tapped ability can be annoying and hampers the good curve that the deck can sometimes see early game. Also, this deck doesn't really want to go into the late game where this guys shines when combined w/ sweepers. The stronghold is more debatable, but the lack of coloured mana was hurting as there is a pretty high demand for it with the Finks and NO
So this post got pretty long (apologies), since I've had alot to say about this deck and only just managed to join the Source... I'll go over my feelings about the big matchups and the sideboarding strategy in a later post, as well as what I feel needs to be improved.
Looking forward to hearing your feedback on my evaluation of the deck, as in my opinion I think it is underrated by many people and has real competitive potential.
Thanks,
MrShine
Sorry for taking them back, it's just that I felt like playing something else instead of TES for once.
Anyone done anymore testing, especially with the B/G builds? or with Listing packing P.Deed main and taking a more control approach?
@ Raindown - Why the focus on 2 colour builds? I would argue that 3 colours is just as focused and can resolve NO just as easily, if care is taken when constructing the mana base (ie, green duals/forests come first). Birds always gets the extra green for NO (as you need one to play it).
On that note, I think your concern for colour screw/land destruction as a reason to play only 2 colours restricts you more than it helps. The only matches where it really makes a difference are canadian thresh, eva green and team america; and both EG and TA play sinkhole which nuke basics just as well as any dual. CanThresh can be a problem but with proper mulliganning and appropriate fetch usage the problem can be largely circumvented. Despite this, it is still a good matchup, and we are also placed in a position to punish their land light draws if they don't plan accordingly (esp. when playing white for vindicate). Other problematic cards like Blood Moon and Back to basics can be played around by fetching basics.
White gives STP, QP and the aforementioned vindicate, all of which significantly boost the flexibility and density of the deck's removal. Not to mention that many top tier decks play 3 or more colours w/ few (if any) basics (Zoo, CanThresh, U/W/x Landstill) and still seem to perform adequately despite the high amount of non-basic land hate in the format.
I have tested the list with the 4 Yavi Elder and 4 Deeds quite a bit (see also Rock thread, I dodnt know there was NO Rock thread). What I found out as certain results:
- the list has an amazing late game: a Witness / Stronghold / NOprog - engine can be outcontrolled by virtually no deck unless in G1 they pack yardhate main
- it should play Maelstrom Pulse over Putrefy to deal with CB, Planeswalkers, Humility and random Enchantments (Enchantress, Survival)
- Yavi Elder keeps the deck together; it is great in making card advantage while having synergy with Therapy and NO; Stronghold on Elder will usually win you any attrition war
- Extirpate and Wastelands I didn't like and 1 Dryad Arbor should be included
If you have such a good end game, why not play Veteran Explorer over Yavimaya Elder? It comes out much earlier. It's great against gob for instance. And more importantly the lands come into play (and untapped sir).
Veteran Explorer is the go-to-end-game button.
Yavimaya Elder and Veteran Explorer have nothing in common. Explorer is 1 card disadvantage for acceleration while Yavi Elder is 2 cards advantage without acceleration. That is like comparing Dark Ritual and Phyrexian Arena in a black deck, they do completely different things in different decks. If you would take something out for Explorer it would be Birds and I don't see that happening. Furthermore it sucks to sac Explorer for NO because that might give your opponent the mana to outrace Prog.
If you are unwilling to make at least 2-3 test games with Yavi Elder then test 3 Senseis Top and a 3rd Witness in its place.
Did I say ever they fitted the same roles?
You just claimed that you played elder and that you had a very strong end game. Good for you, but Explorer seems to fit more the purpose to reach the end game fast. That's all I said.
I assumed you think they do something similar because you suggested Explorer as an alternative for Elder in the BG list.
Why do you think you can exchange a full playset of draw with 4 acceleration spells and still expect the deck to work? That makes no sense.
I like Elder, but I can never seem to find the mana to power his draw and only end up chucking him as a block or sacing to therapy, not sure that is a bad thing, just my experience.
Hi all,
I'm new to the forum but i've been following this thread for some months now and tested some of the rock variants for GP Madrid. The list i ended up with was as follows:
LANDS 19
1x Mash Flats
3x Windswept Haeth
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Swamp
2x Forest
1x Plains
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Savannah
2x Scrubland
2x Bayou
SPELLS 21
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Pernicious Deed
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Cabal Therapy
3x Thoughtseize
2x Maelstorm Pulse
3x Vindicate
3x Natural Order
CREATURES 20
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kitchen Finks
3x Qasali Pridemage
4x Dark Confidant
1x Progenitus
SIDEBOARD 15
3x Path to Exile
2x Tranquil Domain
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ethresworn Canonist
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Krosan Grip
I finished 7-2 Day 1 but couldn't show up for Day 2.
Some of the card choices may seem extrange but the deck works really well.
I removed Wastelands from the deck for a more stable mana base and they haven't really help me win tons of games. I prefer to have access to all my colored mana asap rather than "maybe" punishing land light hands.
I also think the Dark Confidants are auto include as they win on they own against so many decks. Sometimes they lose you a game but they win more often than loose.
I also pack tons of removal cause i was anticipating lots of zoo, aggro bant and all kinds of creature based decks.
As for the sideboard, i'm not sure if the domains are wort the slots as they ruin enchantress but help little against others. I feel fine about the teeg canonist combination and may add another canonist.
A friend of mine has been having great success playing NO/Prog w/ Dark Confidant... And he's not even running Tops! Apparently the life loss hasn't really been an issue w/ 4 Finks maindeck (very similar to your list, although he runs the full packs of thoughtseize/CT).
To me Bob is exactly what this deck has been missing lately; the list that I posted a while back was alright but it couldn't really recover from the massive card disadvantage in the early game (if prog didnt seal the deal, that is).
I've found the tops pretty usefull when in topdeck mode wich happens really often but could be exchanged for tidehollow scullers maybe. I lessened the number of discard cause they are a horrible topdeck late game but the scullers provide a body and a discard, usually granting a stp.
I've tried Sculler a bit but I don't really think it is that good; sure, you grab removal out of their hand but if they have even 1 blocker you are not gonna want to attack or block with him... Basically, he sits around until they find some other out or you are forced to block. In this sense I have just found him to be semi-permanent discard that is only good against decks w/ low amounts of creature removal when they don't have a board presence (which can perhaps be seen as win-more).
Additionally, in landstill or combo/control matchups, you will often want to take their bomb but if they have a removal spell it is pretty futile, as in either case they will be able to cast their bomb eventually anyway. It is just a small tempo shift that might not often work out in your favour.
I would play Top over him any day... and if I were looking for a tempo/discard option I would look to Hymn first