Saito stalling at GP

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Originally Posted by Jander78

At Pro-Tour level events, foil cards can at times be considered marked cards since they can bend and be obvious (especially if it's the top card of your library). The judges can, and have, enforced rules to make people swap them out with the regular versions of the card (or given infractions). From what I've heard from most Pros, you either play a deck that has no foils or is all foils.

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No, it's not that "foils can at times be considered marked cards". If you have a marked card, foil or not, you're going to have to replace it. Foils have more ways they can become marked, but any card can be marked.

"No foils or all foils" is very conservative, but could be understandable if you're very risk averse. Foils are not automatically marked.

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Originally Posted by Pastorofmuppets

Is it possible to ask for proxies if you show that you only own foil versions of the card?

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No. You are responsible for replacing marked cards you own, foil or not, unless it started as mint sealed product and became marked in the course of play.

Chuck, just a curiosity question that may actually be better suited to a different forum, but what are the standards/practices a judge goes through to deem if a card is marked?

For example, in the siutation Ness called the judge in, what would you have done (or what is required of a judge to do) to determine if those 4 hell's thunders were marked? This I am genuinely curious about, as I've had plenty of games where I could consistently cut to a certain card in my opponents deck but as most of the tournaments locally are pretty casual and no official judge, just the TO who spends most judge calls on the DCI hotline, i'd like to know what the actual process is incase this comes up again.

It was super prevalent during Lor-Ala standard where there were a few players who played everything non-foil except for their 4 promo Demigod's in Blightning.

Also, "All foils" is not guaranteed to be unmarked. Some foils warp differently, especially PR/Launch Party/MPR foils (the kind that don't come in packs).

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Originally Posted by Sims

Chuck, just a curiosity question that may actually be better suited to a different forum, but what are the standards/practices a judge goes through to deem if a card is marked?

For example, in the siutation Ness called the judge in, what would you have done (or what is required of a judge to do) to determine if those 4 hell's thunders were marked? This I am genuinely curious about, as I've had plenty of games where I could consistently cut to a certain card in my opponents deck but as most of the tournaments locally are pretty casual and no official judge, just the TO who spends most judge calls on the DCI hotline, i'd like to know what the actual process is incase this comes up again.

It was super prevalent during Lor-Ala standard where there were a few players who played everything non-foil except for their 4 promo Demigod's in Blightning.

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I'm not going to go into too many details, but basically:
a) looking at whether the card is bent differently than the deck, which can make it easier to cut to or even distinguishable when looking at the deck
b) looking at whether the top and/or sides of the sleeve are marked in a way that makes it distinguishable from the rest of the deck

It's worth remembering that pretty much every sleeve/card is marked in at least some small way, so experienced judges will generally be lenient with markings so long as they can't be easily used for advantage.

If cards are marked in a way that could be easily used for advantage or looks intentional, the player will be investigated for intent and at the very least receive a game loss upgrade.

If you think your opponent's cards are marked in a way that could be used for advantage, definitely call a judge. Even in a casual event, people really shouldn't be using significantly marked cards.

i hace some foils that are kind of bent, is there a good way to bend them back?

Riffle-shuffle your deck until they all have the same bend.

Buy KMC Perfect Fit sleeves and double-sleeve your deck.

I found just putting then in a box tightly fitted with other cards works just fine. They straighten out after a while of being forced into being straight. There's always the trick of putting them in a book too. Humidity is what makes them bend, just keep them away from humid places once you have them unbent.

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If you watch a match being played and look past the strategy, you'll see this sort of behavior is completely common. Most people don't sit there staring at the board like a statue when they play. They manipulate game objects.

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HAhaha ! I don't think anyone is debating that... you were joking... right ?

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I wasn't there. I've never watched Saito play. I have no idea if Saito was playing slowly intentionally or unintentionally.

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I was there. I have watched Saito play a number of matches.

I hardly doubt he wasn't aware of Jace TMS' text, thus requiring him to read it once for about 30 secs and then taking another 10 sec peek to verify.

I think, like many players watching the match, that Saito was aware that there were good chances he would lose this game (and the match).

I hardly doubt that he'd need to ponder wasting one of his opponent's lands at least on 4 occasions given the board and gamestate hadn't changed much.

I don't think Saito usually takes that much time to signal his end of turn and makes that many ''wait (...) *no play*" interruptions - especially given the board and gamestate didn't change much.

Anyhow, this is all perception on my part, I am aware of that (and am simply stating it here).

Foils are definitly suspect for shady biz. I remember back when Masques came out it was very common to "knock" on the top of your deck to see if it is bounced back up with a warp. Some players strategically played only foil lands to predict their next draw.

Unless you play 100% foils, there's always something shady going on.

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Originally Posted by rukcus

Unless you play 100% foils, there's always something shady going on.

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Even then, there are multiple kinds of foiling techniques, so 100% foils kinda doesn't mean anything.

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Originally Posted by cdr

No. You are responsible for replacing marked cards you own, foil or not, unless it started as mint sealed product and became marked in the course of play.

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Also, if you are playing in a Limited event and one of the cards has a "darkened" back to it. I had this happen to me with an Ajani Goldmane

I call bullshit on Saito not knowing what Jace TMS does. How does that not set off any red flags?

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

I call bullshit on Saito not knowing what Jace TMS does. How does that not set off any red flags?

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It's not so much he didn't know what Jace, the Mind Sculptor does; he read the card an inexplicable amount of times over the course of two or three turns and milked the clock for every second that he could.

Either way, with the heat that has been brought down upon him (winning the event or not), he will be the subject of close scrutiny and close watch from judges who are aware of his play-style. If for nothing else: To maintain the integrity of the game.

Personally I would feel like Sato is a jerk for slow playing but in the end, saito just exposed an in experienced player, that is all. That is the difference in a person who will never make day 2 and a person who always makes day 2. Now before I get bashed for everyone thinking that I am endorsing slow play, What I mean is that if you feel that your opponent is slow playing, you need to have the balls to raise your hand and say something or atleast mention to a judge to watch for it. As a person who played all 17 rounds without a bye, there is a complete difference in day 1 and day 2, but the one thing that was the same is the amount of judges called, which if both days were the same, 128 people should have alot less need for a judge because of the sheer decrease in players and the play skill should be higher, but this was not the case, I did not have a single judge called on me day 1, but day 2, I had a judge called on me every single match.(none of them went against me I will add), Also day 2 is alot more ruthless, I had 2 different matches where a player called a judge on me cheating because I blind flipped on a counterbalance. didn't get that at all on day 1.

Very simple example that follows this kind of same thing(although I didnt do the whole search graveyard thing), my player was playing lands and I had won game 1, (this being game 2) and I have a pithing needle naming mishra's factory, With about 1 minute left in the round, he gets mindslaver lock with enough mana to do it every turn, and says should we go to game 3, and say to him no, you havnt killed me yet, he calls a judge over and asks the judge if he could make me concede because he had the combo in place, and the judge told him no, and he could not find a way to kill needle and I won 1-0, so because of that, does it make me a douchebag, because I was playing for the clock to run out? I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by blueneverfails

Very simple example that follows this kind of same thing(although I didnt do the whole search graveyard thing), my player was playing lands and I had won game 1, (this being game 2) and I have a pithing needle naming mishra's factory, With about 1 minute left in the round, he gets mindslaver lock with enough mana to do it every turn, and says should we go to game 3, and say to him no, you havnt killed me yet, he calls a judge over and asks the judge if he could make me concede because he had the combo in place, and the judge told him no, and he could not find a way to kill needle and I won 1-0, so because of that, does it make me a douchebag, because I was playing for the clock to run out? I don't think so.

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Right, but your opponent at least called a judge over to inquire whether or not a concession was acceptable (which obviously was deemed not). Saito was using the "Broken Record" technique; he would perform the same unnecessary actions each turn to ensure the clock would continue to run in his favor. He forced his opponent to either call a judge or accept his agenda of milking the clock for all it was worth until the match ended.

Your opponent was smart enough to try and subconsciously "milk" a concession out of you with overwhelming circumstances surrounding the board, which was smart in itself. You identified the situation and handled it accordingly.

Saito's opponent, however, did not.

Saito is better than all of us at playing Magic. He was giving himself the best chance to win, eeking out every incremental advantage he could think of, and he won the GP. We'll never know if he was slowplaying, because noone called a judge. End of story.

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Originally Posted by troopatroop

Saito is better than all of us at playing Magic. He was giving himself the best chance to win, eeking out every incremental advantage he could think of, and he won the GP. We'll never know if he was slowplaying, because noone called a judge. End of story.

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You're wrong. We all know saito slow played. He used the rules to his advantage and bullied his opponent with his reputation to get that win.

Not that i begrudge him doing it, i'd do the same.

It's not Saito's fault. It's judges fault. Congrats Saiton on wining the GP

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Originally Posted by johanessen

It's not Saito's fault. It's judges fault. Congrats Saiton on wining the GP

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Wait what? So if I deliberately don't follow the standard rules of magic, it's the judges fault that nothing happens? So if i stack my deck, and don't get caught it's the judges fault and i have no blame?

He has the fault for deliberately "bending" rules at the very least, he knew exactly what he was doing and got the cheap win, why can't he just be cheap and move on? It's the GP, use whatever advantage you can muster, but don't defend the guy.

Again, i would have done the same thing, and would have known i was being a complete dick in doing it, but at that level of play, i'm taking ANY advantage i can to advance as far as i can, i wouldn't justify my actions however.

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Originally Posted by ns2973

Wait what? So if I deliberately don't follow the standard rules of magic, it's the judges fault that nothing happens? So if i stack my deck, and don't get caught it's the judges fault and i have no blame?

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Basically. That never stopped you from cheating against me, and playing Goblin Welders through Chalice at 1. You're only adamant about this because you know all about it. It's always your opponents fault for not catching you and saying something.