[DTB] Sneak Attack

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JonBarber

Makes sense. Considering that rational of improving bad matchups main deck, have you thought about adding blood moon back to the main? It simply wins against so many decks, and definitely helps the landstill and temp matchup. Not to mention, nuking vengevines duals shuts them off precious green mana. What you say are your big reasons for not playing it maindeck?

---

There's only one big reason--and those fuckers have gills!

I definitely think about it and it gets me excited in all the right places... That is, until I realize that I'd be starting a dead card against Merfolk. However, if I were a numbers man (which I am though I try my best to hide it) the risk reward ratio is pretty devastatingly in favor of mainboarding Blood Moon in today's Legacy game.

hmm well yes seething song is only desireable with sneak attack thats right and i also think i need to run a minimum of 9 creatures. its like having a creature thats only good with sneak attack - there ptutor might be better.

ptutor also reveales the plan and skips a draw step, but on the other hand it offers better draws against the deck that dont have an answer, it also slowes the opp saying: lay down a 2 drop and ill kill u the turn after. and running only 8 "i put a fatty into play"-spells is like only having 8 creatures, but u only need 1 creature the whole game for SaT and 2 for SA. if u lose a counter war another SaT or SA is needed. i like to have mystical back but that will not happen. i think ptutor > seething song overall. maybe 2 ptutor and 4 sneak attack.

isnt terrastodon better than primus? at least it has the chance to kill 3 of ur lands and the opp has to deal with 18 dmg next rurn. in my more SaT orriented build its stronger i guess.

any advices?

It's still situational, but yeah in a more SnT oriented build like yours Terastadon is probably preferable to Primus. We'll agree to disagree about Seething Song--I'm not sure we're hearing each other.

what about gigadrowse in the sb? eot tapp all ur lands and resolve a SA or SaT on the following turn only against his FoW.

+ each replicate copy can only be countered on his own. taps creatures if wanted.
- cost mana (minimum 2-3 blue), replicate is stifleable

what do u think running it as a 3 off in the sb? or instead of REB main if someone plays this ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by APodeschwa

what about gigadrowse in the sb? eot tapp all ur lands and resolve a SA or SaT on the following turn only against his FoW.

+ each replicate copy can only be countered on his own. taps creatures if wanted.
- cost mana (minimum 2-3 blue), replicate is stifleable

what do u think running it as a 3 off in the sb? or instead of REB main if someone plays this ?

---

Meh, I'm not exactly sure what matchups you're thinking of. I can't see myself ever siding in Gigadrowse instead of REB/Blood Moon in the tempo matchups. I don't think this is the answer we're looking for. Defense Grid was a little closer, but I think you would focus on a different build entirely if Defense Grid was included.

In my opinion we can't afford to use precious slots MD or SB tapping someone out at end of turn or gaining a tempo by tapping a dude. We've gotta play to our strengths.

I've played this deck in about 5 tournaments with a several different versions. I was wondering how often Sneak Attack is relevant or wins games for you all? My experience is that SnT gets me the game 80-90% of the time. Is this normal? If not, what % of the time does Sneak work for you? If it is normal then is there something else we could use better than Sneak?

often SnT is the card that wins you the game but if you face decks that can put something into play with SnT that can stop your critter Sneak is the way to go.

Sneak Attack also often helped me out of situations in which a SnT would have been to slow as i wasn't able to cast it in turn 1-3 or it was simply countered.

You can play a different built a friend of mine played for some month with Eureka in the place of the Sneak Attack but it is UGB instead of UR so it is a little more vulnerable to wastelands. Still he had great finishes with his list.

But i don't know if it is the way to go to discuss one of the two key cards of the deck? Shoudn't we dicuss how to support the two cards the best we can :)

Testing out Preordain x4 along with 8 usual cantrips, I like them a lot, turn 1 Cantrip is the 2nd best thing this deck can do aside SnT/Sneak and playing 12 lets me sculpt the first few turns if i cant win outright and are always welcomed draws.
Debating on 3 Lotus Petal main or 3 Spell Pierce, feel like i want Petal all the time(esp vs Zoo,Merf,Tempo), but Pierce helps against Combo and blue decks. Running Daze 4x for protection on early Show/Sneak, never sad to see one. I still get clucnky hands every 10th game or so where i open up on no action just daze/fow+cantrip+lands, or creatures+counters+lands or no landers with my terrible land count of 19 sometimes 1 lander with only Tomb, all very awkward- this gets worse if no Petals-. Anyone else see these kind of hands that often?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PaRa

often SnT is the card that wins you the game but if you face decks that can put something into play with SnT that can stop your critter Sneak is the way to go.

Sneak Attack also often helped me out of situations in which a SnT would have been to slow as i wasn't able to cast it in turn 1-3 or it was simply countered.

You can play a different built a friend of mine played for some month with Eureka in the place of the Sneak Attack but it is UGB instead of UR so it is a little more vulnerable to wastelands. Still he had great finishes with his list.

But i don't know if it is the way to go to discuss one of the two key cards of the deck? Shoudn't we dicuss how to support the two cards the best we can :)

---

I understand and agree that Sneak is the "back up plan" to the usual SnT wins. I was just asking how often and useful the back up plan was going for everybody else. I don't think Eureka is any faster than Sneak, and it's also more risky (the individual card and the deck that's built around it); I really wasn't trying to argue that Sneak shouldn't be in the deck. My comment was mainly geared toward finding out how I can better use Sneak Attack since my experience with it has been less than stunning. Obviously Seething Song has an attraction to Sneak but that's really the only support card that goes soley to it (everything else supports SnT or both engines).

If I just haven't had enough experience and should keep my faith in Sneak winning games I'd like to hear that, too. I'm just surprised by difference in results I've had so far.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by menace13

Testing out Preordain x4 along with 8 usual cantrips, I like them a lot, turn 1 Cantrip is the 2nd best thing this deck can do aside SnT/Sneak and playing 12 lets me sculpt the first few turns if i cant win outright and are always welcomed draws.
Debating on 3 Lotus Petal main or 3 Spell Pierce, feel like i want Petal all the time(esp vs Zoo,Merf,Tempo), but Pierce helps against Combo and blue decks. Running Daze 4x for protection on early Show/Sneak, never sad to see one. I still get clucnky hands every 10th game or so where i open up on no action just daze/fow+cantrip+lands, or creatures+counters+lands or no landers with my terrible land count of 19 sometimes 1 lander with only Tomb, all very awkward- this gets worse if no Petals-. Anyone else see these kind of hands that often?

---

I haven't had any serious testing with it but that was the first list I built. I played a ton of test hands and came to the conclusion that you can have too many cantrips and never put further effort into it. It's nice to be able to find the creature, enabler, mana or protection you need but it's horrible when you just dig into more and more cantrips while your opponent is actually doing something.

I suggest running 3 Intuition as that's the best way to find THE card you need. If you're running 12 cantrips and 3 intuituion then you've got way too many blue library spells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NukeMoose

I understand and agree that Sneak is the "back up plan" to the usual SnT wins. I was just asking how often and useful the back up plan was going for everybody else. I don't think Eureka is any faster than Sneak, and it's also more risky (the individual card and the deck that's built around it); I really wasn't trying to argue that Sneak shouldn't be in the deck. My comment was mainly geared toward finding out how I can better use Sneak Attack since my experience with it has been less than stunning. Obviously Seething Song has an attraction to Sneak but that's really the only support card that goes soley to it (everything else supports SnT or both engines).

If I just haven't had enough experience and should keep my faith in Sneak winning games I'd like to hear that, too. I'm just surprised by difference in results I've had so far.

---

Are you still running the Chalice/Trinisphere oriented build? I'd like to see an updated list from you for reference, but in any case I don't think your experience is A-typical in any way. Really this thread is (intentionally) misnamed. It would more aptly be titled Show and Tell with Sneak Attack since it is essentially a Show and Tell deck with a red splash for Sneak Attack and some of the best SB in Legacy (REB, Firespout, and Blood Moon). In my experience, Show and Tell is the prefered method about 80-85% of the time and is used about 75% of the time; however, there are many matches where you'll be happy you have Sneak Attck as an option.

So yeah, keep the faith, it'll win you some games that you have no reason to win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NukeMoose

I haven't had any serious testing with it but that was the first list I built. I played a ton of test hands and came to the conclusion that you can have too many cantrips and never put further effort into it. It's nice to be able to find the creature, enabler, mana or protection you need but it's horrible when you just dig into more and more cantrips while your opponent is actually doing something.

I suggest running 3 Intuition as that's the best way to find THE card you need. If you're running 12 cantrips and 3 intuituion then you've got way too many blue library spells.

---

I tried the Intuition package for a while, i dont like it and only liked it against aggro decks, it did help out with opening hands w/o Creature or Cheat spell, but i would rather cast SnT/Song+Sneak when i get to 3 mana and all those cantrips let me make sure i get to 3 mana in a 19 land deck-with 4 colorless lands- while setting up Counter or missing combo part. I rarely have cantripped into nothing but more cantrips and the shuffle effect of Ponder,Fetches and scry with Preordain make sure I dont pick up extra Cantrips if i have nothing. Also have tested Tops and found them good against Janky discard decks like Eva/Deadguy/Pox, but slow, so i went with the Preordains. Maybe i am not using the Intuitions correctly, but i am much happier casting cantrips turn 1 and 2 than waiting for 3 mana on Intuiition.

I went 4-2 at the Toronto Legacy portion of the GP. I lost round 1 to a Turn 2 show and tell by having my oppenent flip over a shriekmaw to my emrakul. Game 3 I mulled to 4. I then lost my last round to GB Vengevival maindecking big game hunter and shriekmaw. Certainly not a fun matchup.

Sneak attack is terrific against decks with edict effects, cards like shriekmaw, or the mirror. Sideboard idea- (not saying it should be run, but just gathering thoughts) what does everyone think of Form of the Dragon for the sb? Its insane vs merfolk, and really good vs vengevine survival (as long as you can deal with wonder, but one would assume they sided that out anyways). Not as good as firespout vs goblins and zoo though. Thoughts/opinions?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JonBarber

Sideboard idea- (not saying it should be run, but just gathering thoughts) what does everyone think of Form of the Dragon for the sb? Its insane vs merfolk, and really good vs vengevine survival (as long as you can deal with wonder, but one would assume they sided that out anyways). Not as good as firespout vs goblins and zoo though. Thoughts/opinions?

---

I think about adding copies of Form of the Dragon on the regular. After Emrakul and Progen it seems to be hands down one of the best spells in the game off of SnT. The main problem is that it blows with Sneak Attack... Still, it wrecks New Horizons and goblins as well as being sick against merfolk and post-board vs. vengevival. That alone I think makes it worthy of consideration at the very least.

For your viewing pleasure, I've been toying with the black splash for some time now since Vengevival is eervreewhere, paying careful attention to play the same number of basics so I can still effectively play around Wasteland and still utilize Blood Moon. I've been testing on MWS (since I don't actually have time to play competetive magic until mid-november) and I find this list to be friggin filthy:

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
2 Woodfall Primus

4 Force of Will
2 Daze
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Lim-Dul's Vault
3 Intuition

3 Lotus Petal
2 Seething Song

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Ancient Tomb
3 Island
1 Mountain

SB:

3 Extirpate
3 Blood Moon
3 Firespout
3 Spell Pierce
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Echoing Truth


There's still quite a bit of room to play with both maindeck and sideboard for any given environment, but I'm finding this to be more flexible, more reliable, consistently fast, and (potentially) more interactive than typical UR builds. Lim-Dul's Vault seems beauteous for this deck and Extirpate is such a bomb right about now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JonBarber

I went 4-2 at the Toronto Legacy portion of the GP. I lost round 1 to a Turn 2 show and tell by having my oppenent flip over a shriekmaw to my emrakul. Game 3 I mulled to 4. I then lost my last round to GB Vengevival maindecking big game hunter and shriekmaw. Certainly not a fun matchup.

---

I was the guy with GB survival, i'm pretty sure we played in round 4, not 6.

Form seems like really sick tech, though i think it's only good if people don't know about it, there is a good chance people will still have enchantment hate boarded in because of sneak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JustPAT4

Are you still running the Chalice/Trinisphere oriented build? I'd like to see an updated list from you for reference, but in any case I don't think your experience is A-typical in any way. Really this thread is (intentionally) misnamed. It would more aptly be titled Show and Tell with Sneak Attack since it is essentially a Show and Tell deck with a red splash for Sneak Attack and some of the best SB in Legacy (REB, Firespout, and Blood Moon). In my experience, Show and Tell is the prefered method about 80-85% of the time and is used about 75% of the time; however, there are many matches where you'll be happy you have Sneak Attck as an option.

So yeah, keep the faith, it'll win you some games that you have no reason to win.

---

I've played about 3 tournaments with the Red Stax build but I've since switched to the heavy blue builds with a Green splash for K grip. What I was getting at with my first question is that if SnT is the biggest reason we are winning then perhaps a discard package could be more helpful than countermagic for protection. Thoughtseize/Unmask and Hymn to Tourach could stop your opponent from using SnT and it can also blank their answers to your cards or stop combos.

It's just a thought. I like trying to keep this thread active.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by menace13

I tried the Intuition package for a while, i dont like it and only liked it against aggro decks, it did help out with opening hands w/o Creature or Cheat spell, but i would rather cast SnT/Song+Sneak when i get to 3 mana and all those cantrips let me make sure i get to 3 mana in a 19 land deck-with 4 colorless lands- while setting up Counter or missing combo part. I rarely have cantripped into nothing but more cantrips and the shuffle effect of Ponder,Fetches and scry with Preordain make sure I dont pick up extra Cantrips if i have nothing. Also have tested Tops and found them good against Janky discard decks like Eva/Deadguy/Pox, but slow, so i went with the Preordains. Maybe i am not using the Intuitions correctly, but i am much happier casting cantrips turn 1 and 2 than waiting for 3 mana on Intuiition.

---

I'm still running Ponder and Brainstorm so I have things to do in the first two turns. We're each playing 11-12 blue library cards it's just that the Intution version has a more powerful mid/late game since it can find exactly what you want after turn 3 rather than be restricted to looking at the top three cards of your library.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JustPAT4

Sick find addaro!

This list made Top 4 at the 245 player Eternal Festival in Tokyo (The text after the list are Tomoharu Saito’s impressions):

Show and Tell/Sneak Attack / Yuuki Ookubo – Top 4

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Progenitus
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
1 Personal Tutor
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Intuition

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Daze
4 Force of Will

1 Echoing Truth

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

2 Lotus Petal

3 Island
1 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors

• Sideboard

3 Meddling Mage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Pithing Needle
3 Extirpate
2 Perish

"This deck uses Show and Tell and Sneak Attack to put huge creatures into play. Here, white and black were added to earlier blue and red versions, in particular Enlightened Tutor. Because of this card you can tutor for Sneak Attack, but also if you only have Show and Tell in hand you can search for Sphinx of the Steel Wind. As such, it seemed that due to the white splash the deck’s stability had increased considerably. I felt that Personal Tutor had much the same effect. And, it’s interesting to think that in a long game you could probably also win by hardcasting Sphinx of the Steel Wind. Because it is four colors, I had the feeling that this deck could still develop further. This build plays Enlightened Tutor, and as a result if I were to play this deck I have the feeling I would like to play one copy of Oblivion Ring in the main deck or sideboard to handle my opponent’s various enormous permanents in the mirror including Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Then, even if my opponent put Emrakul, the Aeons Torn into play using Show and Tell when I have Progenitus in play, I could search for Oblivion Ring using Enlightened Tutor and regain control."

There are so many places to pick up discussion on this list and Saito's brief analysis... White for MD E-tutor and SB Meddling Mage, Black for SB Extirpate and Perish, MD Pyroblast/REB, No Seething Song, 21 MD land with Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors Split... Increased vulnerability to Wasteland... No Blood Moon option. Black splash, but no MD Lim-Dul's Vault ( which seems pretty spicy).

This one's juicy folks and there's LOTS of places to go with this discussion. Can't wait to get something rolling! :laugh:

---

No one has any comments? I am so tempted to play this at a tourny. Very fresh deck.

The list from Japan is decent, although it has a lot of one offs. The one personal tutor to find to one piece you want? Enlightend tutor is a way to make the deck a more control of list, instead of beating the hell out of your oppponent in the beginning.

You say you can not play blood moon in that list? Sure you can, you play 3 mountains and 1 island. Make it 2-2 and blood moon is still a strong sb card. The addition of meddling mage, i don;t know. I rather prefer other cards than a singleton lock creature. Against what decks would board it in? All our bad match ups get rid of it pretty easily.

I have changed my list to become rather consistant mb. The 4 intuition make the deck a lot stronger. With that you can make a sb that will coexist with it.

4 Ancient Tomb
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
3 Lotus Petal

4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Progentius

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Intuition

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack

The spell pierces can be traded in for REB/pyroblast of you prefer.

Quote:

---

You say you can not play blood moon in that list? Sure you can, you play 3 mountains and 1 island. Make it 2-2 and blood moon is still a strong sb card.

---

I think you got something wrong there. We all play 3 Islands and 1 Mountain and i really see no sence at all to increase the Mountain count when all your non basics become Mountains anyway due to the Blood Moon ???

By the way, anybody here going to the GP in Bochum?