Survival of the Fittest

I play Landstill, about the only deck (along with Mighty Quinn?) in the format that can afford to run Humility. It only has high potential game1, if I'm able to topdeck it at all and stick it under Wasteland pressure before I die. Its not even a 100% garauntee, since it doesn't save you from a swarm of 1/1s. Game 2 it suffers from the 'Pithing Needle syndrome'. It gets gripped and you can't even counter that.

I guess Peacekeeper is okay, but it can be STPed, and its not like survival can't afford to run some stuff to deal with it (splash black, or Mangara, or Masticore).Guess its better in Countertop shell, if you manage to get the lock.

Survival decks run between 20-28 creatures. Tabernacle is more than a medium disturbance. For specifically addressing what cards are good hate, it really depends on what deck a person is using. Do you have a clock? Mana disruption? Recursion? What colors are you in, what colors do you have stable mana sources that can be used through wasteland.

If you are in landstill, try the UBg jace/deeds/standstill You should do fine against vv survival with a few post board adjustments.

So we'll maybe start seeing more Dutch Stax lists with maindeck Suppression field? :tongue:

-Matt

I dont believe they'll ban survival... i bet they ban portal cards, they're real hard to get and tend to get extremely expensive, not to mentional how many are avaiable to get in market and how them make really hard for wizards to risk a legacy pro tour...(dreaming)

Even if survival gets that much good, they'll probably try printing a answer for it, before banning...

They are printing Awnsers like the new Arbiter which screws the searchability. Also Supression field is very good against survival. I think at the moment it is just a popular deck and the metagame is not shifted yet. There are possibilitys to win against a survival deck, they just have to be played.

A banning of Survival of the fittest is not an option in my optinion.

Neither card deserves banning. We are at a point where main deck point Artifact / Enchantment removal might be a necessary evil, with Vial, Survival, Equips, Sylvan Library etc.

12 years ago you wouldn't have considered playing any less than 3 disenchants in white.

Needle it, Plow the 4/3 for 4, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Extirpate, Leyline, Path, Qasali ... wait for the field breakdown, if 30% of the field played it then of course it did well.

Eating breakfast I realized that if you can handle Trygon Predator, planar void is really good vs. UG madness survival. Yes they have grips post board, but void is a 1 drop which should keep you safe until turn 4.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Funny thing is that ANT/Reanimator never got this big and it was banned. Now Vengevine start taking half of the top 8 and everybody is like "It's fine, you just need to play moar hate!".

I'll vote for the banning of any card just out of spite for what they did with Mystical Tutor. Had they only waited for the Reanimator/ANT to start making half of the top 8's (outside of Netherlands of course!) and I wouldn't be so sour about it.

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QFT!

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Pshaw. 5 Merfolk made top 16 in Baltimore. Nobody complained at all then. 0 Merfolk made it this time.

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Merfolk is not an unfair deck per se, only to blue decks. Survival is an unfair combo engine that enables its player to win on the spot without any draw back.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Needle it, Plow the 4/3 for 4, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda, Extirpate, Leyline, Path, Qasali ... wait for the field breakdown, if 30% of the field played it then of course it did well.

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So you're thinking of a U/W deck with 4x Needle, 4x Plow, 4x Path, 4x Prison, 4x Propaganda, 4x Peacekeeper, and let's say 4x Ethersworn Cannonist, 4x Leyline, 4x Jotun Grunt? Let's throw in Helm of Obedience and Enlightened Tutor for the combo win-con. There, problem solved!

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Originally Posted by Tinefol

I play Landstill, about the only deck (along with Mighty Quinn?) in the format that can afford to run Humility. It only has high potential game1, if I'm able to topdeck it at all and stick it under Wasteland pressure before I die. Its not even a 100% garauntee, since it doesn't save you from a swarm of 1/1s. Game 2 it suffers from the 'Pithing Needle syndrome'. It gets gripped and you can't even counter that.

I guess Peacekeeper is okay, but it can be STPed, and its not like survival can't afford to run some stuff to deal with it (splash black, or Mangara, or Masticore).Guess its better in Countertop shell, if you manage to get the lock.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

So we'll maybe start seeing more Dutch Stax lists with maindeck Suppression field? :tongue:

-Matt

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Enchantress runs both (Humility and Suppression Field) easily, with Grove and Replenish and Moat and Grass and tutor for those. So, can Enchantress beat VV Survival? Honest question there.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

Here is a more constructive question: What decks and specifically what hoser cards are good vs. survival decks? I know what beats AdNT, Reanimator, and Zoo, and Merfolk. I don't know what beats recurring hasted 4/3 creatures, in a Survival shell.

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Merfolk beats survival decks. I don't know about specific hoser cards, but it preys on that matchup.

I actually considder merfolk as a very good matchup when Im running GW survival.


As a survival deck the most annoying cards I have to face are:

-Things that stop me from having an active survival. (note this doesnt win the game but certainly slows me down)
-Humility

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Originally Posted by ummon

Merfolk beats survival decks. I don't know about specific hoser cards, but it preys on that matchup.

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It can beat UG survival. The "hoser" cards there are Lord of Atlantis and Islands along with lack of removal in UG builds. Where did you get that it beats non-blue survival shells? If anything, quite the opposite seems to be true.

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Originally Posted by ummon

Merfolk beats survival decks. I don't know about specific hoser cards, but it preys on that matchup.

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That is certainly not true for GW Survival. The matchup odds are somewhere between 70% and 80% in favor of GW.

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Originally Posted by Deadweight

So you're thinking of a U/W deck with 4x Needle, 4x Plow, 4x Path, 4x Prison, 4x Propaganda, 4x Peacekeeper, and let's say 4x Ethersworn Cannonist, 4x Leyline, 4x Jotun Grunt? Let's throw in Helm of Obedience and Enlightened Tutor for the combo win-con. There, problem solved!

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Wow. You are the funniest troll on the internet.

My point is every single color has an answer or multiple answers. Second the deck doesn't win on the play turn one like storm can. Survival doesn't win on the spot, it requires discard and it (eventually) wins with green creatures (or fringe slow stuff like Retainers / Iona or Ooze). It won't be banned.

Oh my mistake. I was thinking of UG Survival only. WG Survival is almost a bye for combo decks.

Let me summarize the answers:

1. Humility or Ensnaring Bridge but only if they have no MD answers and you get blown out G2 when they grip.
2. Tabernacle the $300 solution but only until they draw wasteland and it doesn't stop 4 4/3 hasted creatures from ending you in one turn.
3. Grave hate + creature hate
4. Enchantress with Moat the $200 solution?
5. Ub Merfolk even though I'd bet it was played at Nashville and survival still did that good.
6. "Busted" combo decks...oh wait they banned MT. Not really.

Short of meeting "Madness Haterator.deck" does this deck really have any bad matchups?

Start adopting Nature's Claim? Works wonders.

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Originally Posted by jazzykat

Let me summarize the answers:

1. Humility or Ensnaring Bridge but only if they have no MD answers and you get blown out G2 when they grip.
2. Tabernacle the $300 solution but only until they draw wasteland and it doesn't stop 4 4/3 hasted creatures from ending you in one turn.
3. Grave hate + creature hate
4. Enchantress with Moat the $200 solution?
5. Ub Merfolk even though I'd bet it was played at Nashville and survival still did that good.
6. "Busted" combo decks...oh wait they banned MT. Not really.

Short of meeting "Madness Haterator.deck" does this deck really have any bad matchups?

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I tested it against an updated reanimate list (dead deck not interesting) and it died horribly against reanimate.
Also TES does fairly decent against it normally.
Many more decks do decent against it ( say anything with a 50-60% MU against vengevival or anything with survival)

What beats Vengevine Survival?

1. Combo - tendrils etc, since you're facing 1 counterspell at most on average and you have faster clock
2. Emrakul.deck. Turn 2 Emrakul beats turn 2 survival
3. Extirpate, even though people claim its a bad card. Yeah its bad if you extirpate vines and then die to rotwalla and mongrel dorks without doing anything at all. Seriously though, how is that even possible? If you put extirpate in landstill shell and basically you loose 1 of your card for 0 of theirs, you still should have card advantage through standstill/draw. If you put extirpate in a eva-green-like deck/rock, you still have loads of removal for dorks
4. Adapt mainboard better to beat Survival. This means playing 4 spell snares, spell pierces, etc

Why are people so keen to jump on ban wagon?