Great videos! Thanks for posting!
I love this deck and am currently testing out Mental Misstep. Anyone have thoughts on this card?
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Great videos! Thanks for posting!
I love this deck and am currently testing out Mental Misstep. Anyone have thoughts on this card?
Ouch, double FOW in game two hurts.
Question: In game 2, did you topdeck the elspeth after your Jace got countered, or did you already have the Elspeth in hand?
Nice pimped deck BTW.
Going to be running the list I posted on page two this sunday at a trial, wish me luck.
@ Zeisse:
I'm pretty sure going aggro with Clique wasn't the correct call, even though it won you the game.
Here is why:
You simply weren't the beatdown. Whenever a control.dec faces an aggro.dec your primary gameplan should almost always be to drag the game out to reach the late mid-game as unharmed as possible. Because that's when we'll usually start taking over. Playing Control I have rarely gone on the offense before the late mid-game/early lategame (against Control.dec/Combo it's a different story, of course).
To be more specific: Trying to race an Aggro guy with a 3/1er VS a 2/2 really makes no sense imo, because your life total will eventually drop quite low too, which can be neck breaking at times. Just imagine he'd have drawn a Pridemage - you'd have about 2 turns less to find an out.
The safe way to approach that game would have been to completely shut down the ground with Shackles and Kor Haven until you could have been able to built an army with Elspeth and or casted Jace or get CB-Top going.
Thoughts?
The Bant player had very few cards in hand when Clique started getting in, and Bant had absolutely nothing relevant on board (Bant seemed to be land flooded hardcore game 1). Going into beatdown mode with Clique was justifiable in that situation.
EDIT: Have to rewatch to see when he drew into a 2nd Shackles, but the point stands; there was pretty much nothing the Bant player could represent that Superfriends didn't have an answer to. Superfriends had that game locked up the moment that Bant did nothing in the first 4 turns other than swing with Dryad Arbor.
Melbourne, Australia? I thought I knew about all the tournaments played here but I didn't see this result. Can you shed any light? (links, location) :)Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I agree with him going aggro with vendy. In both games the Bant player really got screwed and couldn't do much. So taking advantage was the right choice.
@ The Treefolk Master:
I had Elspeth in hand. My intention was to play it after it's play force of will. In my turn, I draw Jace 2.0, so that being better Elspeth in that situation, I play first Jace in case he has FOW.
In the second game, we both made mulligan to five. My hand was plains, top and 3 other card. I was lucky and my 2º and 3º draw were 2 flooded strand.
Any tips on for me playing it this Sunday at the GPT. I really need help with my Sideboard more than anything. Right now its
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Tormods Crypt
3 Innocent Blood
3 Disenchant
3 Pithing Needle
I don't really know what I am going to playing against so I figured this was probably a Safe and fairly Universal Sideboard. Except for the Innocent Blood, I have a good removal package as is, but I wanted to be safer, rather than sorry.
@ Zeisse
Thanks for posting the vids.
Ya'll must have me on ignore i've made like 6 posts in the thread and have yet to get a reply from anyone =/
@BeatusnoxQuote:
Originally Posted by Beatusnox
First of, I don't want to be rude or anything but did you look at your list and look at the deck primer you're posting in?
Super friends is an evolution of Landstill without the factories and Landstills but which still plays Jace 2.0 and Elspeth. Now, you don't have Jace and still play with Landstill and the factories. You also don't run Predict or Shackles, 2 of the essential changes to standard Landstill. So.... Why don't you post your deck in the Landstill thread were it belongs?
As far as the list goes, if you play purely for fun or you play in a casual setting, your list is great. But don't expect to many good results in competative tournaments. You really really really need fetchlands in Legacy.. There's just no excuse, especially when you run Top and are in Brainstorm color. Also, Jace 1.0 really dissappointed me in Legacy. He's really bad in aggro heavy meta's and I find him also lacking against combo. Last thing, don't play Decree of Justice. It's just terrible in the current meta. Aggro is far to fast and against combo it letteraly doesn't do anything.
As far as you list construction goes, it has a good balance between all the components. It's just that the expensive cards in Legacy are just far superior to their cheaper look a likes.
I play Landstill for almost 5 years now and have played wit budget versions myself so I have some experience with them and I can tell you that you'll have a very hard time against the top tier fully streamlined decks. But he, like I said, if you just play for fun and winning is secondary, you go out there and have fun!
If you want more advice on your list specifically, you can always pm me or just post in the Landstill thread.
grtz,
Melie
See this is the problem with people here, I post on the Landstill forum, I get sent here. I post here, yall send my back over there. If you actually read the post I made you would see all the card choices you openly attacked are explained. If you honestly feel my list does nothing against Aggro or combo why would I try to play it? In the old thread there was a lot of debate on whether or not stand still should be cut, with people on both sides of the Argument. I have predicts in the list, why I didnt list them before I dont know =/Quote:
Originally Posted by melie
Locally Ihave beat ANT(doomsday), TES, Goblins, Burn, Stompy, Merfolk, High Tide, Aeon Bridge, Leylines, The Gate, Ascension, there is more to the list.
Played against Spanish Inquisition but never got to finish. There is no local Belcher,
I'm not going to debate this with you.. But just look at this check list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatusnox
What is Hanni's list about?
No Factories X
No Landstill X
Elspeth V
Jace X
Predict V
Shackles X
You only run 2 of the 6 defining cards that make this deck it's own unique self. Also, running Predict with only Top to support it and no Jace 2.0 or Brainstorm isn't the best idea I think.
Again, I don't want to attack you in anyway. It's just that this list is a pure Landstill list. It's a UW control deck that plays Standstill and wins with manlands.. Only difference is that it also plays counter top but there have been many Landstill decks that did this in the past. Anyway...
On your perfomance, I had much much worse results playing with budget control lists. If the results you had were against potent opponents with actual complete top tier lists and not MWS level player, well, more power to you.
Like I said, if you want you can always pm me. I have loads of 'budget' landstill lists that I used to play.
I have some thoughts regarding elspeth and in particular the SB plan vs merfolk.
As a disclaimer I want to mention that I have very limited experience playing with elspeth.
The point with elspeth is supposedly to be an out vs aggro and in general creature-based decks. However, I find myself to pretty much every board in peacekeeper vs every creature based decks running 10+ creatures which in turn renders elspeth useless...? peacekeeper and elspeth are obviously counter-productive and peacekeeper is faster than elspeth, so no reason to keep her in as an out while you wait for elspeth.
Basically, what im trying to say is that I pretty much never use elspeth post board vs creature based decks and I am half expecting that the point with elspeth is to fight other controll decks? if someone could shed some light what her role in this deck is I would be grateful.
Also, why would one keep elspeth in vs merfolk (corahelm) when boarding in peacekeeper with my above logic? I really feel like im missing something here! Imo the natural plan would be to go -2 o-rings and 2- elspeth for peacekeeper and then perhaps predict (it is a bit slow) for needles
I'm sorry I didn't address your post earlier. I've been extremely busy in real life, and there have been several replies that I haven't gotten to.Quote:
Ya'll must have me on ignore i've made like 6 posts in the thread and have yet to get a reply from anyone =/
Onto your list.
I'm not going to be as blunt about it as melie, but you really cannot operate this deck properly by playing budget cards. There's plenty of great decks in Legacy that don't cost an arm and a leg. Unforuntately, this deck is not one of them. You absolutely need fetchlands; there is literally no replacement.
There's really not a good reason to run 3 WoG effects over the Shackles. I used to play with 3 WoG myself not so long ago, but Shackles is a massive improvement for the deck. However, your list has too low of an Island count to make them work. Which brings me to my next point:
I completely understand your frustration here. I had the same problem back in 2008 when I was advocating Counterbalance in Landstill. Those guys did not budge then, and they won't budge now. If you're list has CounterTop, then they are gonna tell you to visit this thread, Ultimate Walker, CounterTop Thopters, or some other CounterTop-based control thread. Sorry, but this cannot be helped.Quote:
See this is the problem with people here, I post on the Landstill forum, I get sent here. I post here, yall send my back over there.
However, you really are a Landstill deck; CounterTop Landstill, but still Landstill. You run 8 manlands, 4 of which come into play tapped, and 2 Standstill's. If you read the primer, my ultra strong manabase is a defining characteristic for what makes this deck so successful where many other control decks are failing right now.
Anyway, I'll still try to help you with a few suggestions for your list. I just wanted you to realize that you're deck isn't really CounterTop Superfriends, although melie already pointed that out.
Jace Beleren is bad. If you cannot afford Jace TMS, that does not mean that you should just sub in Jace Beleren. There's really no good replacement for Jace TMS, but I'd argue that Decree of Justice is a much stronger win condition than old Jace. Or you could simply go up to 4 Standstill's since you already run Decree's, which is what I'd suggest.
You're removal package is also extremely dense. Although, I can somewhat understand why, since you run no Brainstorm's. Honestly though, the new Zendikar fetchlands really aren't that expensive (although for this deck, Flooded Strands are clearly the way to go). You really need Brainstorm + fetchlands. Top is crap without fetchlands, and Brainstorm is essential for having the proper answers in the early game. You'll notice a much larger increase in overall consistency once you upgrade to Brainstorm and fetchlands. If you plan on spending any money on any other cards whatsoever, and plan to continue playing this sort of deck, you need to make fetchlands (and Brainstorm) your top priority. Get some dude, seriously. Otherwise, you're betting off trading your cards for a cheaper deck like Merfolk.
I hope this helps. If not, maybe consider making a new thread for your deck in the N&D forum, titled Budget Control Deck. You might get some more constructive help that way. This thread is meant to discuss highly tuned versions with no budget constraints in mind, in order to develop the strongest possible deck configuration.
EDIT: If I came off sounding like an ass, I didn't mean it that way. I'm trying to be as helpful as I can. If the truth hurts, I'm sorry.
If you're bringing Peacekeeper into every aggro matchup, you may be sideboarding wrong. Peacekeeper is great against decks with a dense amount of creatures and either very little or no removal. You really don't want to bring Peacekeeper in against any deck with a dense amount of removal, or decks with a light amount of creatures that have alternate win conditions that don't involve attacking.Quote:
I have some thoughts regarding elspeth and in particular the SB plan vs merfolk.
As a disclaimer I want to mention that I have very limited experience playing with elspeth.
The point with elspeth is supposedly to be an out vs aggro and in general creature-based decks. However, I find myself to pretty much every board in peacekeeper vs every creature based decks running 10+ creatures which in turn renders elspeth useless...? peacekeeper and elspeth are obviously counter-productive and peacekeeper is faster than elspeth, so no reason to keep her in as an out while you wait for elspeth.
Also, Elspeth is perfectly fine under a Peacekeeper. You keep ramping out 1/1 tokens every turn until Elspeth goes ultimate, all of the 1/1 tokens (and everything else) becomes indestructible, you ramp out however many more that you need to infinitely/indefinitely chump block, and then make 1 more that you can swing with. Then you sacrifice Peacekeeper in your upkeep (by not paying the upkeep cost), and swing at the opponent with a 4/4 flier until dead.
Elspeth fills alot of roles. She's amazing against control decks because they have an incredibly difficult time dealing with her, and she assassinates opposing Jace's (or other Planeswalkers). She's rock solid against aggro because she buys plenty of time for you to draw the removal you need, and then goes back to doing her thing. If you're boarding her out for Peacekeeper in every aggro matchup, you may be sideboarding wrong.Quote:
Basically, what im trying to say is that I pretty much never use elspeth post board vs creature based decks and I am half expecting that the point with elspeth is to fight other controll decks? if someone could shed some light what her role in this deck is I would be grateful.
The problem with dropping Elspeth is that this deck drops very low in win conditions, and if the Merfolk opponent happens to counter your Jace during the game (or destroy it by swinging), you're left with very little ways to actually win. Peacekeeper is great at stalling the board out, but this deck still needs to win. If you don't draw a Peacekeeper right away, Elspeth can help slow the bleeding against Merfolk (so long as you can keep Coralhelm and Atlantis off the board). I've never attempted to board her out vs Merfolk, so maybe boarding her out is the right call, but I don't know if that would really be the best idea.Quote:
Also, why would one keep elspeth in vs merfolk (corahelm) when boarding in peacekeeper with my above logic? I really feel like im missing something here! Imo the natural plan would be to go -2 o-rings and 2- elspeth for peacekeeper and then perhaps predict (it is a bit slow) for needles
Sorry for triple posting, but I figured it would be cleaner if I addressed three seperate issues with three seperate posts.
The problem with trying to fit Mental Misstep into this deck, is that's it's already loaded with 1 drops. The only place the deck can really cut from to fit it would be the two Path to Exile's, or the two Oblivion Rings.Quote:
I love this deck and am currently testing out Mental Misstep. Anyone have thoughts on this card?
The thing is, there's not really a whole lot of 1 drops that this deck really worries about. I'd much rather Path a turn 1 Nacatl than pay 2 life to counter it; I can easily wait till turn 2 to cast a Brainstorm or drop a Top.
The only two spells in the format that are worth countering for free and paying 2 life, that cannot be answered by Path to Exile, are Top and Vial.
Against most decks playing Top, I'm usually the favored matchup. The only matchup that also runs Top that's problematic (that I can think of) is Dreadstill, and I admit that Mental Misstep would be great in that matchup... but I simply don't see that matchup enough to make such a drastic change.
Against Vial, I agree that Mental Misstep is a definite powerhouse. In a metagame full of Vial Aggro, I can see the justification for running Mental Misstep. I'd likely cut 2 Oblivion Ring to fit 2 Mental Misstep in a metagame full of Vial Aggro, although cutting 2 Path's for the last 2 Misstep's would be questionable.
For the most part, I really don't think the deck needs Mental Misstep. The only 1 drop I really care about is Aether Vial, and while it does have other uses, I'm not sure if the deck needs it. I may be wrong, and I can definitely see Mental Misstep being great in other control shells... I guess only time and alot of testing will tell.
I do know that postboard, I'd much rather bring in Pithing Needle to answer Aether Vial, since it's proactive and shuts down all 4, while hitting other relevant targets like Mutavault, etc.
The reason my removal is so dense is due to a local meta being filled with aggro. that was one of the things I was wondering about, Should I remove the Edicts to the sideboard to make room for more control Centric Pieces? Brain storms have been added, I really should update my list on here <_<.
How many fetchlands do you recommend 5-7? All of them U/X?
Thank you for putting your post politely btw, it puts me less on the angry defensive and more into a communicative mood.
Also, As for the sideboard I finally found my Divine Offerings, should I run those over the Disenchants?
My sideboarding Plans with the one I posted.
Against Burn, and Targeting Combo: Leyline of Sanctity
Against Stuff with Reliquary and Goyf/dredge: Innocent Blood and Tormod's Crypt
Against Countertop, Vial Aggro, and Landstill: Divine Offering/Disenchant, Pithing Needle
Against Ascension: Pithing needle and Innocent Blood/Tormod's Crypt
Against Aeon Bridge: Pithing Needle and Innocent Blood
Sorry for long post, just please let me know if I'm going about some sideboard wrong.
Hai Guys!
So, with NPH waiting at the gates to be released, I've been thinking about some cards to be included in Superfriends. As some of you may remember, I've been running a UWb list for some time, which could punch big holes into anything.
But then I stumbled upon Beast Within, which made me rethink the black splash (which was mainly for Vindicates and Edict effects) - it can be seen as a functional replacement for Vindicate after all. Plus, it does some neat tricks with Vedalken Shackles and can generate dudes for when you have to go beatdown.
When you're splashing green, Firespout comes to mind quickly, also because of my perceived need for Redblasts in the sideboard, so splashing red has some merits too.
This is the list I threw together and want to discuss - enter Supreme Superfriends:
//Landbase
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Tolaria West
1 Kor Haven
1 Academy Ruins
//Superfriends
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
//Removal
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Firespout
3 Beast Within
//Permission
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
//Draw
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Predict
//Sideboard
2 Firespout
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Mental Misstep
2 Negate (initially was Spell Pierce, but became Negate for mana curve reasons)
It should work almost the same as UWb Superfriends, the main difference being 5 spells. My primary concern in building this was the Goblins, GWpileofcrap.dec and Sneak Show matchup, which were really tough for me all the time. Without Edicts, I obviously lose outs to Sneak Show, but Firespout should even out the other 2 Matchups. Postboard, I should be able to completely lock Sneak Show out, being able to counter all their stuff.
I'm not entirely sure on the manabase. Would like some advice on that from people who have run Supreme Blue and were facing a tempo-heavy metagame. 8 Fetches should be correct, I won't let go of the Tolaria/Kor Haven/Ruins package but the numbers seem strange to me. I've never played a 4c Control deck though.
Also, I find my sideboard a bit lacking. We currently have almost no Enchantress and Chalice Stompy decks here, but lots of Vial decks and Dredge. I guess there's lots of good stuff against those decks but in the past I got curbstomped that one time too often and I hate Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge with a passion. This is why I miss those Peacekeepers, but they ultimately had to go because of Firespout - which are better against Goblins and GW. Is there a catch-all that doesn't interfere with Firespout and is not Moat (which I can't afford as a 3-of right now)?
Sadly, I can't test this list out in the next week, so any advice is appreciated until I get down to testing. I'm not sure if UWrg is the way to go, but I see Beast Within way above Vindicate and so I want this to work.