Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheDarkshineKnight
So, I was digging around in the Berserk Stompy topic and found the following budget list:
3 Vine Dryad
2 Jungle Lion
4 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
2 Talara's Battalion
4 Rancor
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
3 Giant Growth
3 Manamorphose
2 Gleeful Sabotage
2 Land Grant
15 Forest
Figured it might be of interest.
It was mine, but I changed it a bit -- this is the current one:
//Maindeck:
18 Forest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Jungle Lion
2 Skarrgan Pit-skulk
3 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Viridian Zealot
4 Kavu Predator
2 Talara's Battalion
4 Rancor
4 Manamorphose
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Invigorate
3 Giant Growth
//Sideboard:
3 Reverent Silence
3 Nature's Claim
2 Seeds of Inocence
3 Winter Orb
4 Tormod's Crypt
I keep on trying/testing this cheap build of monogreen w/o berserk, which I call "Monogreen Aggro" or "Monogreen Zoo", from time to time, but not as much as other lists, I really like it, for it pawns goblins, merfolks, U-based tempo and U-based control... I figure it demands more serious testings against more decks to fit into 4eak's list.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gui
@gui
Im also in the process of building my budget stompy with splash red. Have you thought of assault strobe as a replacement for berserk? For me it's ok as it also doubles the damage of your crits! You have your manamorphose anyway so why not try it? :P
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
R.e. Pox: this is a relatively cheap Contamination Pox build (I haven't actually play tested this build, I've just been fooling around with the list as I prepare to dabble in Pox in the near future. So I'm sure an experienced Pox player will point out all the places I'm going wrong).
//Lands (24)
Swamp (20)
Wasteland (4)
//Pox (8)
Smallpox (4)
Pox (4)
//Contamination Lock (12)
Contamination (4)
Nether Spirit (4)
Bitterblossom (4)
//Beatdown (4)
Chimeric Idol (4)
//Support (12)
Duress (4)
Innocent Blood (4)
Hymn To Tourach (4)
//Sideboard (15)
Leyline of the Void (4)
Pithing Needle (4)
Ratchet Bomb (3)
Mindbreak Trap (4)
You can of course opt out of running Wastelands to make it even more budget, or replace Duress with Thoughtseize to make it less so. Tombstalker would also be solid. I really don't think there's a budget alternative to Bitterblossom for this build. You can probably afford to also go -1 Pox -1 Nether Spirit to put in two Ratchet Bombs MD. I've seen some Contamination builds running fewer than 4 Chimeric Idols. Again, I have no experience here, but that seems crazy to me given how perfectly that card jives with the deck's concept.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
I don't really think wasteland qualifies as budget anymore... If LED doesn't count as budget, neither should wasteland seeing as they're about the same price. right?
unless wasteland is really SO good that it stops counting as budget.
obviously if you got wastelands play them, but their time of relatively low price has passed, in my opinion.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Technically, no, Wastelands are not very budget. However I don't think price alone dictates how budget a card can be measured as being. So, Wasteland I think is more of a budget card than LED despite costing even more than it, simply because it has a place in almost every Legacy deck. LED doesn't. So buying Wastelands is a very solid, stable, and wise investment which will give you a lot of use. LED can go in a couple of decks, but is ultimately a big investment for a card that has only a very precise, very limited application.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
I've been looking into Berserk Stompy and Pox builds. I've not found anything yet that I like. In part, I'm wondering if Berserk Infect isn't better than Stompy, and I still don't know if I really wish to advocate either deck in the end. As for Pox, I think it requires extremely expensive mana-bases to even begin to become competitive.
I've added Maverick and Mono Red Goblins. Also, Gitaxian Probe replaced Street Wraith in Belcher.
I'm at the point where I could recommend $100-200 decks, but I'm genuinely unimpressed by their performance. I'm being flexible with what counts as budget, as I said I would in the OP. Even a $300 deck is very budget in overall Legacy, and while that sounds like a lot, I think $300-400 is where we begin to see the diminishing returns of money in terms of performance in Legacy. Only investing $100-200 in a deck really misses out on what can be achieved per dollar; the majority of the strength of a deck's performance is attained in the first $300-400 for many decks in Legacy. I don't have so much of a problem with that price tag, since my aim is to be efficient with money, even if that ends up costing more than most people initially consider 'budget'.
This isn't satisfactory for some, I realize. As I said in the OP, if you want a budget deck which costs less, specify it for me and give me your price ceiling; I'll build and test for you. That said, at very low end price ceilings, e.g. in the range of $100-200, I really can't recommend Dredge and Sligh enough. I can't seem to find decks which strongly compete with these 2 at this price range (particularly if you aren't interested in spending more in the long run, and this is your final ceiling). Furthermore, neither deck is given enough credit in Legacy, regardless of budget. I think people implicitly assume that the pricetag of a deck defines its viability, which is part of what leads them undervalue and fail to see the viability of Dredge and Sligh. You'd be surprised how many $1500 decks get rolled all the time by Dredge and Sligh. Obviously, that doesn't mean they are the absolute best decks in the format, but certainly very strong contenders, particularly when piloted correctly.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
@ Infect stompy vs. Zerk stompy
I've tested them both (obviously tested Zerk more), and I can tell the differences between them: While Zerk lands more creatures at 1cc and swarms 2/x creatures for :g: like a champ and can win more easily in the aggro route, Infect depends on accelerators to get their good creatures early, but once it connects, it wins faster, without swarms. I can tell Infect can benefit a lot from the new set. Also, MonoG Infect is worse, since no Evasive creatures, and the fact that Invigorate demands a forest, and is by far the best pump fom Infect, makes it expensive to go Budget 2c or 3c.
Besides, I don't know how much Zerk can be considered budget anymore, it is hella more expensive than when I got my set. I think the list above have some differences in matchups, but can get the same result against most matchups, and is better against some others, so I think that one is more budget/effective, although I admit, I get better results with Zerk.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4eak
Sure, post it. Do you think it is better than Merfolk, and if so, why?
peace,
4eak
Traditional U/G Madness
4 Misty Rainforest
7 Island
7 Forest
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
4 Waterfront Bouncer
4 Arrogant Wurm
3 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Circular Logic
3 Umezawa's Jitte
It's been solid, to say the least. I think it's better than Merfolk in terms of combat tricks. Also, being able to grant all your dudes dlying is way better than Islandwalk. Ironically, Waterfront Bouncer, a Merfolk, has been one of the biggest surprises in the deck.
It probably won't put up as great results as Merfolk, but for what it costs, it packs a good punch.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
As far as UG Madness goes I feel like you can't have an optimal list without Vengevines which unfortunately is not budget at all. Hopefully it will be post rotation because the price is in my opinion extremely inflated right now for no apparent reason post Survival ban.
Also I think you could easily cut a 'Moeba and a Wonder for 2 Trygon Predators, they aren't on theme technically but they are really useful.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
When Survival was banned, "optimal" for UG Madness at that point went out the window. Until now there isn't any one successful list for UG Vengevine Madness post-ban, so the assumption that UG Madness without Vengevine isn't optimal is absurd.
I wouldn't cut a Wonder. I can even argue to add a 4th one, as having flying beaters is one of the main selling points of the deck.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Fair enough, why no Deep Analysis though? In my experience it has been sick.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
I've added MWC to the OP. This is one of my favorite decks to play. Enjoy.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Hey 4eak, I had a suggestion for your MWC list. Or at list, a question. Have you considered White Sun's Zenith in place of Decree of Justice in that list? It has it's strengths and weaknesses; it's counterable, and it doesn't cantrip. It also triggers Standstill. However, it also fires off at instant speed, and furthermore, it shuffles itself back in (another shuffle effect with Top seems good) and makes 2/2 guys instead of 1/1's at the same cost.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
I think White Sun's Zenith is substantially weaker.
First off, it doesn't cost the same. :w::w::w: vs. [:w::2: or :w::w:] can matter.
Secondly, if I'm not worried about permission, and I'm interested in board presence (e.g. raw P/T on the table), there really isn't a serious difference between DoJ and WSZ. Here is the comparison:
Decree of Justice - Sorcery
CC - Quantity of Tokens*Type of Token - Total P/T on the table
6 - 1*4/4 flying - 4/4 flying
8 - 2*4/4 flying - 8/8 flying
10 - 3*4/4 flying - 12/12 flying
White Sun's Zenith
CC - Quantity of Tokens*Type of Token - Total P/T on the table
4 - 1*2/2 - 2/2
5 - 2*2/2 - 4/4
6 - 3*2/2 - 6/6
7 - 4*2/2 - 8/8
8 - 5*2/2 - 10/10
9 - 6*2/2 - 12/12
10 - 7*2/2 - 14/14
There is a difference when you are spending odd amounts of mana, and at 4-5, you actually get something on the table when sorcery speed DoJ does not (but at that cost, I'd rather be drawing a card, even if I only got 1/1's) On the other hand, you actually get flying tokens from hardcasted DoJ. Obviously, instant speed gives you some information advantage, but in many of these cases, cycling DoJ does just as well (e.g. fogging).
What else does WSZ bring to the table?
- It shuffles
- It prevents you from decking yourself in various circumstances (this actually matters!)
- It is reusable over the long-haul, but this is kind of weak given the other win conditions in the deck.
What else does DoJ bring to the table?
- While cycling:
- It draws a card
- It is nearly uncounterable
- It is easier to cast early game (the mana requirements are easier to meet)
- It isn't dead with only 3 land in play
- It doesn't break Standstill
- It is is usable through cards like Iona, a notoriously difficult card to answer for MWC.
- While Hardcasting:
- It can be slightly easier to cast, particularly if you only have 2x:w: to use.
- Besides having flying, the Angels are bigger creatures (which generally block more effectively)
DoJ is better against aggro decks -- it stalls better and draws a card to help you find an answer. DoJ is better against control decks -- it is nearly uncounterable and it draws a card, not breaking standstill is pretty amazing as well.
peace,
4eak
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
With regards to the MUC list, (from what I gather) the 3 win-cons you have (other than Shackles) are mainly there to provide a way to win against decks where Shackles is poor, combo, for instance. Would subbing out the 2 Sphinxes and Skybreaker for 3 Vendilion Cliques provide a more disruptive and cheap route to take down combo (while still maintaining a solid grip on other MU's)?
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4eak
I've added MWC to the OP. This is one of my favorite decks to play. Enjoy.
peace,
4eak
Hey 4eak,
Was that list the same list you use to top8 the budget tournament months ago?
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Ratchet Bomb might be worth including in some number, in the mono blue control. I've found that these days you have just as many, if not more, issues with Planeswalkers and sometimes enchantments as with manlands. Maybe not a direct upgrade to the list, but something that might be worth mentioning, especially since you don't run your own Jace2.0 to legend-rule opposing Jaces. I dunno how much they were when you posted the decklists, but they're down to about 5$ at SCG, which is imminently reasonable :P
It might be worth mentioning that, for budget Belcher, if you have access to LEDs what you should replace with them. I would say Seething Songs, probably?
For the Mono-White control deck, assuming one doesn't want to blow 80$+ on four very narrow lands, Ice Floes is a decent replacement for Maze of Ith. Desert might also be an option. Neither of them stop Lackey, and Ice Floes doesn't tap for mana, but they do seem like decent budget options to expand possible answers to early threats.
Also for the mono-white control deck, Aegis of Honor might be a good sideboard inclusion, possibly instead of Leyline of Sanctity. Obviously Leyline is slightly better if it's in your opening hand, but if it's not in your starting grip the earliest it can come down is turn 4, which seems...poor against combo and burn. Aegis has 5x the chance of making combo and burn jump through hoops starting turn 2, since you only "need" to mulligan into a Tutor or it, and while you need to leave mana open, I'm assuming that the matchup against combo is pretty meh anyway, so it's really much more useful against burn, where the benefit of it being more available in the early few turns, I would assume, is greater than the random chance you shut them out of their first turn Lightning Bolt (what burn deck plays bolt turn 1 anyway?).
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Kor Haven is better than Ice Floe. Neither is really needed in mono white, though- you have so much removal anyway.
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
Before I used to run PainterStone combo, my Quinn deck was essentially an aggro-hate deck. Right now, it still is but I have comprimised some pieces to also help against Combo and Control (though the deck just rolls over to the control mirror).
I do agree with Decree of Justice vs. White Sun's Zenith. Also, I don't think Kor Haven is needed in a mono-white deck (unless you know your meta packs a lot of 'protection from white' creatures. Even then Day of Judgement can deal with that).
Also, I don't think Ice Floe stops damage. Your opponent's creatures still gets through. I wouldn't want that against a Goblin Lackey.
On a different topic: is there a way to build a cheap Lands.dec? Just wondering....
Re: [Budget Decks] -- My Attempts
@ bakofried
Quote:
With regards to the MUC list, (from what I gather) the 3 win-cons you have (other than Shackles) are mainly there to provide a way to win against decks where Shackles is poor, combo, for instance. Would subbing out the 2 Sphinxes and Skybreaker for 3 Vendilion Cliques provide a more disruptive and cheap route to take down combo (while still maintaining a solid grip on other MU's)?
Sphinx and Skybreaker give you enormous amounts of inevitably, which is what the deck is all about. They aren't there for combo.
Cliques are expensive and not worth the money in a budget version of MUC. They do improve the combo matchup, but not by a ton. Well-played combo is very difficult to beat with MUC in my experience. You'll never have enough of a clock to beat them consistently. I'd actually be more interested in CB-Top for answering combo.
@ (nameless one)
Quote:
Was that list the same list you use to top8 the budget tournament months ago?
No, but it did matter for the final product.
This is what I used from an older thread in the Cavius Forum:
Quote:
1 for 1's: 8
4 StP
4 Path to Exile (if you can avoid using this before turn 3, the card's drawback is barely noticeable)
Bait and Clear: 12
4 Pulse of the Fields (3 is acceptable, but the card makes Wrath/AVeng way stronger. It is a white timewalk.)
4 Wrath of God
4 Akroma's Vengeance
CA generating, difficult to answer wincons: 10
4 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice
2 Elspeth (Has tested very well in this deck, dodges AVeng too--goes "ultimate" all the time)
Random: 5
1 Ray of Distortion (I've not been happy with multiples, but it is necessary against Chalice/CB)
4 SDT
Land: 25
4 Scrying Sheets
1 Thawing Glaciers (2 is the max worth running, nice for shuffle and as the 5th Sheets)
20 Snow-Covered Plains
After taking a suggestion to test Austere Command, I found that it worked. I lost the "no-permanent" feel by having O-Ring in the deck, but I still have greatly minimized opposing board control. Then we had the Budget tournament months later, and I used (which had a smaller budget):
Quote:
// Lands
19 [IA] Snow-Covered Plains
4 [CS] Scrying Sheets
2 [CS] Mouth of Ronom
// Creatures
3 [SC] Eternal Dragon
2 [WL] Peacekeeper
// Spells
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [TSB] Sacred Mesa
4 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
4 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [LRW] Austere Command
4 [10E] Condemn
4 [SC] Wing Shards
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [WL] Peacekeeper
SB: 4 [CS] Sunscour
SB: 4 [MR] Rule of Law
SB: 4 [SC] Gilded Light
SB: 2 [R] Disenchant
From there, after more testing, I've arrived at the list (with Maze of Ith's) that I presented in the OP of this thread. Austere Command is almost always one-sided, and O-ring handles permanents I just can't otherwise handle very easily (like PWs...although I can legendary rule out opposing Elspeths, I can't for Jace).
Quote:
Right now, it still is but I have comprimised some pieces to also help against Combo and Control (though the deck just rolls over to the control mirror).
I think Quinn basically bends over backwards to answer combo and some odd things that Scepter/Chant can answer. Outside of that, I have lost too many games because Quinn relies too heavily upon card disadvantageous, silver-bullet, tempo plays that some aggro decks still squeak through. I just don't have that problem nearly as often in plain board control MWC.
From my experience, the MWC list I've been using is better than Quinn against many opposing control decks. Given the sheer amount of removal (and lifegain), outside of Planeswalkers, they often don't have a way to win. Beyond O-Ring, Elspeth, Pithing Needle, DoJ, and manlands go a long to making life very difficult to keep Jace (the only Planeswalker I really worry about) on the table. Admittedly, I might go up to 2 Pithing needles -- answering Jace is the serious issue.
Quote:
On a different topic: is there a way to build a cheap Lands.dec? Just wondering...
No. Not a decent one at least.
@ evanmartyr
Quote:
Ratchet Bomb might be worth including in some number, in the mono blue control.
It certainly is a reasonable choice. The end game build might run it, it might not. My concern was for efficiency, which I think Ratchet bomb is still too costly for what you get in MUC (although, that isn't true for other decks).
Quote:
It might be worth mentioning that, for budget Belcher, if you have access to LEDs what you should replace with them. I would say Seething Songs, probably?
Gitaxian Probe goes first. You lose information advantage when you open with the card -- and I'd rather simplify mulligan decisions. I realize the peek effect and the storm count it provides is nice, but the information disadvantage isn't worth it. Probe is budget, I think.
Seething song is a two-edged sword. It is the only card in red that generates 2 mana more than it cost (at least, for this deck). It is the common counterspell target, but the consistency it brings to the deck is too hard to overlook.
Look at Top8 Belcher decks through time, and you'll see that Seething Song is very rarely removed.
Quote:
For the Mono-White control deck, assuming one doesn't want to blow 80$+ on four very narrow lands, Ice Floes is a decent replacement for Maze of Ith.
You are right, I need to test it. It isn't nearly as good, not just because it actually allows the creature to connect once. It fails in odd circumstances, like Reejery untaps, or when you might have 2 Mazes eventually facing a Wasteland and a creature you don't want to connect, Ice Floe actually fails once. And, most important of all, it doesn't hit fliers. At 13 cents a piece, it still looks pretty impressive. I've used Ice Floe in lands.dec, but never in MWC. I'll try it out, thank you for suggesting it.
Quote:
Also for the mono-white control deck, Aegis of Honor might be a good sideboard inclusion, possibly instead of Leyline of Sanctity.
No, it isn't even close.
Against Burn, we have 4x Pulse of the Fields (GODLY!), Story Circle (better than Aegis, as it answer Sligh creatures when necessary), and Sanctity to practically end the game.
But, Leyline of Sanctity isn't just for burn. As you pointed out, opening it against Tendrils combo is sweet (albeit, very rare). Aegis isn't impressive against combo really -- once they go off, they've almost always got enough to win. I am considering putting back in Aura of Silence, as that card is pretty sick against combo (if you live to play it) while remaining very useful against most of the field. I don't intend on defeating good combo players, but I still catch a surprising number of players with their pants down (especially since they often wait to duress, assuming I've got chants, buying enough time to drop a lockpiece that they lack the skills to overcome). I've even used it against Painter and Belcher as well (pretty sweet).
Leyline is also very impressive against any deck packing discard.
Leyline has several valuable applications where Aegis doesn't.
@ Shawn
Quote:
Kor Haven is better than Ice Floe. Neither is really needed in mono white, though- you have so much removal anyway.
Kor Haven is better than the first and probably second Ice Floe, I'm not sure about the 3rd and 4th.
I think you and (nameless one) are wrong about not needing or wanting Maze of Ith type effects. There are a couple substantial reasons to want these effects:
- They are usually free (Kor Haven isn't) to put into play and use, and this deck desperately needs early game tempo. You want to consistently open hands which simply can't lose in the early/mid game to decks which win with creatures.
- When going full defensive mode in the very early stages of the game, choosing to drop Maze instead of another plains allows you to have even more removal up to stop the early game rush. In this sense, Maze of Ith is nearly a 'free' 1-for-1 until you can stabilize.
- Maze of Ith works under Standstill (that matters).
- Maze of Ith, like Pulse of the fields, forces your opponent to overextend into your sweepers. I cannot emphasize enough how excellent this is. It is an important piece in generating card advantage, both in stalling to find the pieces for generating CA, but also in this forcing overextension.
If you are building a strict board control deck, Maze of Ith (or similar effects) belong in it. Wasteland be damned, the effect is that good.
peace,
4eak
