Team Grixis (UBr tempo)

4 Goyf 4 stalker was always enough in old team america, though delver is significantly more fragile than goyf. However, you also have burn to finish people off if you can get in some hits.
Sulfur elemental seems like an awesome SB card and maybe maindeck-worthy.
Jace was good enough for the MD of TA and I think it would be good in this deck too, especially as it can draw you into burn spells to finish the game. You'd have to go up to 20 lands though. The only other major card you lose is Pernicious deed, but engineered explosives could be a good enough replacement.

I have the same feeling, Delver is fragile, so we may need more than 8 creatures. That's why I'm asking :)

I don't think Jace is a good idea in this meta though (ie infested with RUG decks). I would rather play another 2-3 beaters.

I know people are dubious about it, but Jace's Phantasm might be worth testing.

Perhaps the creature base could be modified to take advantage of Vision Charm -- playing some combination of Jace's Phantasm, Tombstalker, and Phyrexian Dreadnought. Essentially taking the old 'Dreadstalker' list and updating it, perhaps even by dropping Red altogether (either going straight U/B for mana ensurance, or maybe splashing White for better removal, or who knows what...) Vision Charm is a way to accelerate into all three of the big creatures, and serves some niche functions elsewhere -- I just wish it cantripped!!

Edit: sample list:

Creatures [9]
3 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Tombstalker
4 Jace's Phantasm

Instants [25]
3 Snuff Out // Dismember
3 Vision Charm (maybe cut something for the 4th charm)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce

(maybe cut some stuff for additional discard)

Sorceries [8]
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize

Lands [18]
1 Island
1 Swamp
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

This list has not been tested, and it's basically just a modification of an old list I found on TC decks. But the idea is that you're geared to beat combo game 1 with only 3 dead slots (the Snuff Outs), and can still steal wins from RUG, Maverick, etc. by having huge evasive creatures they can't deal with in time.

Another possible route would be to drop Tombstalker entirely and go with Dark Confidant as a card advantage engine. Just throwing some ideas around, everything will require some testing of course.

The creature is terrible versus combo. ANY other creature would do it if you can swing 2-3 times with you opponent having 10 cards in the grave. I see what you did there as it is pretty close to the UB Tempo list than won Russian nationals but optimizing the 4 Delver/3-4Stalker/2-3 Clique lists seems like the better plan to me when talking about Grixis colored decks.

Regarding original Team America I can only say that the game plan was much more mid game orientated - which fitted into the metagame at that time. I doubt that 8 rather slowish non shrouded creatures would do very much in today's metagame with decks that play 7 Swords and 3 Terminus.

I really really do not get why the list posted on the last page runs IoK. I would run Thoughtseize instead any time ...

How crucial is the turn 1 or 2 Delver to this deck? The lack of creatures worries me a little bit.

It is pretty obvious that it is very matchup dependent - for example UW Terminator gets pretty hard without dealing about 10 damage with a quick delver. Other matchups - like combo - are still fair even without dealing a ton of damage early on because the stalker and clique are super good against decks not running decent removal.

In the end you are running as many creatures as Canadian while Terminus made Mongoose lose an INCREDIBLE amount of value against the decks it used to be good.
I really like the deck and I will continue working on the deck so I would love other people sharing their experiences.

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Originally Posted by oRen

It is pretty obvious that it is very matchup dependent - for example UW Terminator gets pretty hard without dealing about 10 damage with a quick delver. Other matchups - like combo - are still fair even without dealing a ton of damage early on because the stalker and clique are super good against decks not running decent removal.

In the end you are running as many creatures as Canadian while Terminus made Mongoose lose an INCREDIBLE amount of value against the decks it used to be good.
I really like the deck and I will continue working on the deck so I would love other people sharing their experiences.

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One possible way to deal with UW control decks is by playing some number of Sulfuric Vortex. Hope that your dudes can get in for a couple swings, disrupt any form of clock on their end, and land a Vortex for the win. Especially since this deck doesn't play Nimble Mongoose, having a "creature" that can't be killed by conventional removal may help make this matchup manageable. A hypothetical, transformative sideboard could even get really crazy -- drop all the creatures (except Clique for its disruption) and have 4 Sulfuric Vortexes in the board. Combined with your disruption and burn, you can burn them out and leave their removal cards stranded and useless, gaining virtual card advantage and inevitability. This is just an idea though, I am not sure how practical it actually is.

I like the idea of Vortex in the board but 4 seems like it would be too many. Have people played with a small number of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in the maindeck? I've been thinking of trying 2 (in the spot of darkblast/snuff out that many lists use) just to give the deck some additional threats and access to some more 'unfair' draws. Just and idea I've been toying with, not that sure about it, I just wanted access to a faster clock in some matchups (Reanimator, Sneak and Show etc).

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Originally Posted by Zand

I like the idea of Vortex in the board but 4 seems like it would be too many. Have people played with a small number of Phyrexian Dreadnoughts in the maindeck? I've been thinking of trying 2 (in the spot of darkblast/snuff out that many lists use) just to give the deck some additional threats and access to some more 'unfair' draws. Just and idea I've been toying with, not that sure about it, I just wanted access to a faster clock in some matchups (Reanimator, Sneak and Show etc).

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Glad to see this thread is still kicking. I have a old list from back on page one. Im going to try and test it out today. I still would love to use a dreadnaught as it is one of my pet cards but I have not had much luck with him.

First of all, I love what you guys are doing here! I wanted to build faeries, and this is basically my grixis Faestalker list, Minus the bitterblossoms, which is the card
i wanted to bring up. Cast early, they are a pretty solid threat, and they also act as defense against bigger dudes. \\

They also make jitte start to look pretty good.

And what are thoughts on liliana?

It's late, but I'll be back soon. Keep it up!

Greetings All,

I have been playing RUG for a bit and was curious about this archetype. I think it has a lot of promise. I think that there are a ton of ways to configure this deck depending on whether you plan on countering threats, killing them, burning them, and how you want to race. Take a look at the list below, it is basically ported form the RUG Tempo list that I have been running but adapted for the colors.

Maindeck
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Force of Will
3 Ghastly Demise
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

Sideboard
2 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Smash to Smithereens
2 Gilded Drake
4 Submerge
1 Perish


So the sideboard is up for debate or adjustments based on your metagame. I think with both Snapcaster Mage and Tombstalker there is no reason to omit Thought Scour. It gives you more options to Snapcast and can power out faster Tombstalkers. Both while hopefully making sure you don't have to delve cards you might need to Snapcast. I think it might be worth it to run even 4 Thought Scours and that would help support a fourth Tombstalker. Not to mention the synergy with Ghastly Demise... What do you guys think?

Pointed here by sturtzilla, Cross post from a post I made in the Team America thread:


I've been playing with this recently but don't know where to put it in terms of threads, it is kind of like the Russian list, but kind of like the BUG lists, and I'm slowly morphing it more towards a next level thresh style(with jace and C spell). The sideboard needs work and some numbers in the main deck can be moved around, started with Levin's list from a few weeks ago but hymn hasn't been relevant in about a year.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Go for the Throat
4 Ponder
2 Snuff Out
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
6 ?
3 Extirpate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize

Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).

Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.

Addendum:
Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.

Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

But yeah working on it and seeing what to do with it.

isn't this a U/B/r thread?

I think that having the red would improve your tribal match-up, allowing you to use burn on the key creatures without losing 4 life (like lackey, piledriver, merfolk lords, the mana creatures). firespout is also real good against anything tribal, they need 2 lords to save their team, and you still run a lot of removal.

I think that 4 clique is way too many. I love them, but at 3 and legendary they are bound to sit in your hand more often then you'd like. I still think that bitterblossom is a good addition, but if you are going 2 colors, you should have the stability to cast jace, which i would cut 2 clique for.

I am obviously a fan of the tempo faestalker style of this deck, I love the red. bolt takes care of so many things in the metagame. With free removal like snuff out, your flyers should have no trouble getting in. I like the 12 creatures with jitte (3 of the creatures being bitterblossom), jitte just ends games on it's lonesome, and blossom is basically impervious to removal besides quasali.

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Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).

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I have not tried a more controlling UB version so I could be mistaken but I would hesitate to go long with only these 2 colors. Without white or green you will lack the late game bombs and engines that BUG control and miracle control bank on, Jace excepted, but goose and bolts make jace alone questionable IMO since canadian is such a house right now. Also without white for terminus/stp/karakas/humility I think disruption and free countermagic is the better route vs. sneaky show. I guess I just dont see control handling SnS without these anymore but I could be wrong.

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Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.

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Agreed on both.

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Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

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This is the void left by goyf but splashing red can shore some of these up nicely. Honestly though if you do decide to build for the mid-late game I would just write off burn as bad and move on.

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I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.

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Fair enough although then I think this becomes more of a pet deck without red or green. With red the manabase would be equivalent to traditional TA its true (slightly worse at times IME) but I see no reason not to run snuff out alongside bolts.

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Addendum:
Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.

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UBr does well against maverick, ive tested this matchup extensively with different variations. Ive even tested UB tempo and results were similar. Alot of this is the mindset, you should try to refrain from killing things that dont matter g1 and protect a big flyer then postboard kill everything.

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Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

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I cant say ive tested against fish in a looong time but UBr feels seems positive to me. I can say from experience that canadian actually has a decent time against burn due to goose/goyf + trading counterspells 1/1 with burn spells.

Regarding your list specifically:
I like the shell and your creature suite although 4 vendilion clique is too many, 3 is pushing it IME. I think the main problem though is the trade off of a 3rd color for basics. Its not really worth it when factoring in cliques UU alongside stalkers BB because more often than not you will need 1-2 seas and at that point you may as well splash.

Stifle is a card I love too but in this shell I think your right, theres just too many cc2-3 spells that conflict with leaving mana up and you cant out tempo RUG with this anyway so it will often be U to discard yourself.

Pierce main is obviously good right now although I think 1cc discard is still better than counterspells but I would leave this to preference.

GFtT is for griselbargain I assume? I cant really think of anything else relevant so I would just make this snuff out #3 tbh and handle SnS from the board as much as possible. Killing thalia for 3 isnt that appealing and snare is still a spell, around here anyway.

For the SB: while massacre is amazing it loses alot of value when goyf is changed to cliques and perish obviously becomes completely one sided so theres that to think about. I would also consider a pair of gilded drakes in those empty slots and a pair of edicts. Also I love extirpate but I usually run a 1/2 split with extraction in case I open with 2 in hand. Anyway just some thoughts.

And here for discussion is some grixis ideas:


4 delver of secrets
3 tombstalker
2 vendilion clique
1 reanimate

4 lightning bolt
1 forked bolt
3 snuff out

4 force of will
4 daze
3 thoughtseize
3 IoK

4 brainstorm
4 ponder

9 fetchlands
4 underground sea
1 badlands
2 volcanic island
4 wasteland

SB
2 perish
1 massacre
1 EE
2 diabolic edict
2 gilded drake
3 spell pierce
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 duress

Yes throat is for Griselbrand, it's bad but it's something also just another removal spell that doesn't cost life. Yeah it's all over the place, I played it some local events a few weeks ago and it did ok, but I think it's back to the drawing board. needs more focus. Thanks for the input though.

I had been playing a list casually since last year. This month I decided to finally put the "good" cards in my list and take it down to Legacy night at our FLGS. Had some ups and downs with it throughout the month, but I finally was able to get there in a small local tournament with this list.

4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Badlands
2 Volcanic Island

4 Goblin Guide
4 Tombstalker
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt

Sideboard
3 Perish
3 Pyroclasm
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Diabolic Edict

Round 1 vs. Esper Stoneblade

Game 1 - I kept a bad hand and got crushed as a result. I bring in Smash to Smithereens and pyroclasm

Game 2 - Smash to Smithereens, Bolt, Bolt, and a Tombstalker get me there with relative ease. Bring in Thoughtseize and take out Eddicts and a Stifle.

Game 3 - He gets lingering souls and I haven't seen pyroclasm in either game yet. He allows Forked Bolt to resolve. Flashes back the souls and drops another. Pryroclasm... FINALLY!!!!.... Countered. Things aren't looking good until I top deck a Brainstorm and see Thoughseize and Pyroclasm. I take his counter, drop the 'clasm and follow it up with a Delver that rides off into the sunset.

Round 2 vs. Mirror Match

Game 1- He must have kept a bad hand and I'm not sure what he is playing. All I see him play is a Swamp, fetchland, island and Bob. Goblin Guide Turn 1, Delver turn 2 and go on cruise control to victory. Bob reveals a Jace 2.0 and I bolt him to win. I don't board in anything

Game 2 - He kills every creature I play. Everything! I learn he plays Terminate in addition to Forked bolt and Lightning bolt.The game drags on and he eventually beats me down with Delver. I board in +3 Pyroclasm and +2 Jitte and take out the -1 Forked Bolt, -2 Spell Pierce and -1 Ponder.

Game 3 - I start whittling down his life with Delver and Guide until he starts killing everything again. He drops double Delver. I remove 6 of the 8 cards in my Graveyard and play Tombstalker. "Tombstalker!" my opponent shrieks out. He must not have the removal in hand I think to myself. He drops Jace and sends Tombstalker back to my hand. I have 3 lands in play, lightning bolt, ponder and Stalker in hand. I attempt to bolt Jace, denied. I play ponder and he attempts to daze it, I meekly tap my land to pay the 1 and it resolves. Wastland, Fetchland, STIFLE!!! With Stifle in my hand he beings to fate seal me. I get a delver and a guide out which are promptly removed. Jace goes up and he ultimates... he has two cards in hand... "Stifle?". "Yup". I pyroclasm, drop stalker and get there by the skin of my teeth.

Round 3 vs. Reanimator

Game 1 - I keep him off his lands with Stifle and Wasteland. I bring in the 3rd Eddict for the Forked Bolt

Game 2 - He Thoughtseizes me turn 1 and turn 2. He gets rid of my Eddict and a Delver. He exhumes and brings out Elesh Norn and I scoop. No changes

Game 3 - I keep him off his lands with the Stifle Wasteland plan and he keeps me off my Eddict with Thoughtseize. He entombs, reanimates and brings out the Sphinx. I have Bolt, Bolt, Stalker. I draw the Eddict. I play Eddict, and pass. He passes back and my attempt to drop Tombstalker is greeted by Force of Will. He casts Reanimate for his Sphinx and I double bolt him for the win.

Round 4 vs. RUG

Game 1 - Grind out a victory with Goblin Guide and Delver and eventually get there with Tombstalker. In comes the Perish and the Pyroclasm out goes the Force, the Spell Pieces and the Forked Bolt.

Game 2 - I'm able to keep him off off his delvers with bolts, but he counters and stifles at will against me. He eventually drops double goose on the loose and follows it up with a Goyf. He's tapped out and I have Perish and Daze in hand. I draw a Tombstalker and Perish resolves thanks to the Daze. Stalker comes down and victory is mine.

The board obviously needs some work. Jitte is too slow for the meta right now at my store and I'd rather have some form of graveyard hate in it's place. Pyroclasm seems okay, I hate losing my dudes because of it, but it has kept me from losing to Delver, Nimble Mongoose, Stoneforge, Lingering Souls and Maverick.dec. Ideas and constructive criticism are always welcome.

Goblin Guide and Wasteland/Stifle is a saucy nonbo

Why did the deck suddenly become unpopular?
It seems to me it's a very good metagame choice right now.
I successfully played two tournaments in a row:

r1: 0-2 against reanimator (in both games had to mull into weak hands)
r2: 2-1 against burn
r3: 2-0 against esper blade
r4: 2-0 against burn
top4: 2-0 against esper blade (tempo)
finals: 2-0 against sneak attack

r1: 2-0 against sneak attack
r2: 2-0 against maverick
r3: 2-0 against merfolks
r4: 1-2 against esper blade (tempo) - I could win 2-0 but made a critical mistake, and in the third game mull to 5, keep 1 land and suck to a wasteland

My list:
4 Polluted delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Wasteland

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce

SB:
3 Pyroblast
3 Hydroblast
1 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Comments: added 1 Snapcaster, because due to a small creature count in the deck I often need to flashback ponder/brainstorm to find a beater. On the other hand it helps against aggro match ups to flashback bolt/forked bolt to get an extra card advantage and clean the way. Against combo it always finds some disruption to flashback. Overall it's a pure CA which the deck lacks. Did not ever feel bad about him and Tombstalker in one deck.

Splitting forked bolt and fire/ice: I sacrificed some speed against aggro by turning 1 of the forked bolts into fireice for more versatility in other matches. In the first game against reanimator/sneak fireice can do things, but the deck can't afford to run 2 of them. Also do I need to tell that it taps batterskull, lands and other different stuff, being pitchable for FoW.

Went down to 3 stifles cause there are too many 1cc drops for the first turns: delvers, inquisitions, bolts and ponders. I can't afford to sit with a stifle and wait for opponents crack their fetches. The deck has to be aggro from the first turns. Every extra turn they have to topdeck an StP for our creature is crucial. I found stifles to be better in midgame by preventing them change the board position with a mystic/jace/etc.

In the SB IMHO there are 2 floating slots: hurkyl's recall and the 3rd hydroblast. I need them in my meta, cause we have a lot of burn and affinity recently.

Comments appreciated.

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Originally Posted by door

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IoKozilek should probably be Thoughtseize.

Another positive tourny with the same build:
2-0 merfolks
2-0 MUD
2-1 UR painter
1-1 nic fit
I'd love to test it on a long distance. Perhaps not a bad choice for those, who are in Ghent.