[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Fr_Apo

Hey guys,

[...]
The list felt really good all day.
I don't know how can you play with no DR main against deck like esperblade. Sure when they can't stop you from going off and lost dice roll you will just crush them but during testing and tournaments I won numerous game where I would have just been dead to batterskull nor jitte, my first esperblade opponent did stack 4 counters on his jitte but could'nt steal g1 where a simple aggro plan would have missed (he goes t1 thoughtseize + fow on my turn1, then wasteland t2...).
Also, DR is really mvp in MU where the opponent can remove your bridges pretty easily.

I definitely got to do more testing with your quadlaser to figure out how good it is but I felt like you are trying to maximise the chance you have to get a perfect hand via chosing to lose to any complicate situation you can face.
What does your metagame look like?
In France, most people are running stoneblade(esper or not) / maverick and rug, and being sure to be faster than a turn two ooze on the draw seems really key to me while getting answers to fast batterskull snapped into play, rug MU in g1 seems not to change drastically no matter which list you run.

I wish you good luck on top8ing the BoM, hopping you won't be the only dredge deck getting in : )

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.

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Up.

Is it the fact that i'm new (as a poster) to the thread that made you disregard it or is it THAT bad? =)
I quoted without the introduction and report to get straight to the point.

PS : In order not to get fowed on my LED, I usually count storm out loud G1 when I cast it.
Worked fine so far... Even allow you to get coliseum t1 on the draw sometimes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Apo

What does your metagame look like?

Some questions to seal this post :
- Can we get your last quadlaser brew? The sideboard particularly.
- How are you feeling in the maverick match up?
- How are you siding in against esperblade? The match up feels pretty good but I am not quite sure about my sideboard tech.

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I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.
Hope I could help.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.
Hope I could help.

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I think he means complicated situations like: When your opponent kills his own creature with jitte/bolt, bounces batterskull to remove bridges etc...
then you are stuck with only ichorids to win you the game, and once they drop batterskull, or have enough removal for ichorids, you are left without threats.
this is a situation i'm familiar with when i have slower draws.

Normally a therapy is enough to deal with batterskull. Also it seldom happens that I remove all my bridges at once Oo

Edit: I will actually play flayer on saturday, I am very curious already as to how it will turn out.
Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I am guessing the majority of your post is directed to me, next time just quote me so I actually know I should answer:P

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Will do :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

The idea behind quadlaser is that g1, no deck in the format can do relevant stuff that actually makes you lose, as long as you don't whiff.There is an awful lot of canadian and nic fit in our meta. Game 1 against nic fit is still perfectly winnable. what kind of complicated situations do you mean btw?
1.My newest list runs -1 thug +1 blast main, 4 leylines, 4 claims, 3 citadels, 2 ancient grudge, 1 memory's journey in the board.
2. Maverick is better than it used to be before. Though e-tutor boards are a pain in the ass.
I board -4 breakthrough, -1 Ichorid, -1 PImp, -1 Study for 3 lands and claims.
3. Esper stuff(I assume you mean something along the lines of Martell's list) is not really that common here, as it loses horribly against nic fit and the canadian matchup is not that great, either.

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I can't really understand why people play nic fit, but in your rug infested metagame, it seems to be legit. Here many people are playing GW aggro, keeping rug played but not ubiquitous.
1. Thanks for the list. I will give it a try.
2. Maverick is better since you stopped playing dread return? I really like to have answers to a turn 2 scavenging ooze on the play for maverick. Comboing out and returning a flayer ftw or to burn scavenging ooze is really cool. Even 6 2/2 + 3 ichorid in the yard aren't enough to run against mav that resolved a turn 2 ooze :s
3. "esper stuff" are build inspired from tom martell's list, it shows many plays here, and will be there at the BoM too. You'd better get prepared IMO. The 1 mana targeted discard associated with snapcaster + surgical can be a real pain. Did many testing g2 on the draw and it wen't poorly for me. Trying to run few thoughtseize in the board to adress it since it is quite good against storm too.

According to your post, you are putting nic fit deck to beat? Not prepared at all for this deck at the moment. I should better test this out...

Looking forward to seeing your impressions on flayer. I used to play sun titan but most definitely switched to it and didn't regret it so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Edit: I will actually play flayer on saturday, I am very curious already as to how it will turn out.
Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p

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Yeah...Thanks Necro :D
But hey, let's dredge them away Hokus

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Too bad the Düsseldorf meta seems to ve very hostile...thanks necro:p

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Originally Posted by K1w1

Yeah...Thanks Necro :D

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WOOTWOOT!!!!!! I am sorry guys. :cry:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Apo

Will do :).


I can't really understand why people play nic fit, but in your rug infested metagame, it seems to be legit. Here many people are playing GW aggro, keeping rug played but not ubiquitous.
1. Thanks for the list. I will give it a try.
2. Maverick is better since you stopped playing dread return? I really like to have answers to a turn 2 scavenging ooze on the play for maverick. Comboing out and returning a flayer ftw or to burn scavenging ooze is really cool. Even 6 2/2 + 3 ichorid in the yard aren't enough to run against mav that resolved a turn 2 ooze :s
3. "esper stuff" are build inspired from tom martell's list, it shows many plays here, and will be there at the BoM too. You'd better get prepared IMO. The 1 mana targeted discard associated with snapcaster + surgical can be a real pain. Did many testing g2 on the draw and it wen't poorly for me. Trying to run few thoughtseize in the board to adress it since it is quite good against storm too.

According to your post, you are putting nic fit deck to beat? Not prepared at all for this deck at the moment. I should better test this out...

Looking forward to seeing your impressions on flayer. I used to play sun titan but most definitely switched to it and didn't regret it so far.

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Against nic Fit and Esper, t0 leyline is enough. And you can race ooze just fine imo 0o
But we'll see, I don't have a list for BoM yet.

For the moment the Belgium meta is incredibly hostile for us. A lot of Maverick with Ooze & E. Tutor, Nic Fit and decks with Jailer, Extraction & Jitte on the side. I really like Ichorid, but for the moment I'm shelving the deck. :frown:

You do realise that you learn most in a hostile meta?

Does anyone have links or lists they'd like me to post for Quadlazer Dredge?

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

Does anyone have links or lists they'd like me to post for Quadlazer Dredge?

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4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Memory's Journey
3 Tarnished Citadel

I am not able to find the link as I am on my mobile now, but I posted a link somewhere in the old thread maybe a month ago. Belgian Eternal Weekend Mol Top4

Updated.

Another Dredge Variant that can also be included as part of the Primer includes Bloodghast.

The list:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2480&d=216112

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Originally Posted by Que

Another Dredge Variant that can also be included as part of the Primer includes Bloodghast.

The list:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=2480&d=216112

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I have to agree with HokusSchmokus that Bloodghast-Dredge is the ideal place for Flayer of the Hatebound. Kick Primus for Flayer and we have a good starting point for building such a deck.


Oh, and btw, regarding that Bloodghast variant and Dredge variants in general:

Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:

I'm pretty confused and can't decide what should I bring to local tourney this Saturday: currently I'm playing LEDless version(new to Dredge and still unable to get the playset of LEDs).
Do you think that Faithless Looting is worth md space in LEDless version or should I got for Tireless Tribe in that place?
The list is: 14 lands, 3 ichs, 4 cabal therapies, 4 breakthroughs, 4 imps, 12 dredgers, 4 studies, bridges, narcos, 2 dr's, one spot for dr target(Flamekin,Iona, Titan- haven't decided yet, may go for Sphinx as well).

Thx in advance

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Originally Posted by Que

1st Off. Congrats on the performance.

I think your list looks fine as far as opting to actually play DR and its targets. Sun Titan seems really good on paper with regards to recurring things like LED into a looting. I haven't tested it yet myself.

Would you mind going over what the boarding looked like for each of these matchups? I'm intersted in what you boarded in/out. I think a lot of dredge players have varying opinions as to what gets brought in and against what. Being able to compare would be a great benefit. If you dont' remember then don't worry about it.

Do you also have general boarding strategies? I'm just trying to find out what cards are getting the shaft in Games 2 & 3. To me the maindeck is so packed in that I have difficulty deciding what to cut during those games.

Thanks

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Remember, game two's can be a little confusing because you don't really know what kind of hate your opponent is on, so sometimes it's best not to shut yourself down for a few tacky anti-hate cards. Generally speaking, the siding strategies went like this in most of my games (all game three's we'll go back to using the main list; it's easier that way - so assume game three you're starting fresh):

Game Two Against EsperBlade

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Narcomoeba

+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Coffin Purge
+1 Cabal Therapy

Game Three

-1 Darkblast
-1 Careful Study

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Breakthrough

Here's I generally go all-in against my opponents. There is no need to water what can be a complete blowout when you have all the pieces to already do so. I only bring out one Study so I can get some something with Ancient Grudge. Otherwise, it's a "hit a home run" game. Don't water the plan down too much; this is where the deck's strength lies - it's running LED for a reason, stick with it.

Also, while it might seem that removing a Narcomoeba might be a mistake, it's actually a card you don't want to open hand in those games and you really don't want your opponent to get maximum value out of Extraction. You're testing their hate here, and I did that and it worked relatively well in those games. Narcomoeba actually becomes more of a liability in those games because open-handing it...sucks.

Game Two Against Maverick

-1 Breakthrough
+1 Ray of Revelation

I only bring this in to help with Wheel. Other than that, I could care less about Crypt and I just went balls to the walls. Now, I could have and probably should have brought in Firestorm, but again I am finding it to be somewhat kind of blah against Maverick. Wasteland can already hurt you bad sometimes, and with Thalia, Firestorm really isn't all that great in this matchup. You're better off sealing the win and blowing out their hand turn one or two with Therapies.

Again, it depends.


Game Three

Again, it depends. If you lose game two, just keep it all in like the Esper matchup. Maverick runs no Extractions typically so you can always name Crypt, Tutor (on the play) or Wheel, and that's generally enough.

Game Two Against Pox

Assuming Leyline is coming in against you:

-4 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Darkblast
-1 Breakthrough

+3 Nature's Claim
+2 Coffin Purge
+1 Ray of Revelation

Game Three

Basically the same. This is again on the basis your opponent is running Leyline. That makes LED a huge liability, and Breakthrough can be really bad when you're digging for answers.

Game Two Against Elves

-1 Careful Study
-1 Faithless Looting
-1 Breakthrough
+3 Firestorm

Here, I keep the LED's in because they can still enable Coliseum and Looting if need be, but Firestorm also helps act as a discard outlet/blowout spell. LED's don't have to be immediately used unless an opponent has a slow start, but it's a card you really want to be able to race the Elves player.

Game Three

Basically the same. You need to "out-combo" the Elves player fast enough to where you can just win on the spot. They might have something techy against you, but it's a risk in this match-up you have to be willing to take.

Hope this helps some. Sideboarding for Dredge is not easy, and this is what worked out for me. Take from that what you will.

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

I have to agree with HokusSchmokus that Bloodghast-Dredge is the ideal place for Flayer of the Hatebound. Kick Primus for Flayer and we have a good starting point for building such a deck.


Oh, and btw, regarding that Bloodghast variant and Dredge variants in general:

Should this one thread discuss LED, LED-less AND special variants all at once? Wouldn't it be better if we seperate the Dredge thread in LED & LEDless? :eyebrow:

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I am testing a similar "Combo" against Friends and in MWS. Startet playing Dredge with Konkurs and Manaless Dredge, my Idea was to merge the latest GP Dredge Brew with the old Manaless Dredge out of the following reasons:

- in my meta, there are nearly no Leylines/Cages
- Surgical/Extirpate is the most played hate
- Game 1 is winnable with nearly every Dredgelists most of the time

The most probs I had in the times of Manaless Dredge were Prisons (like Enchantress) despite of the permanent hate cards like LotV (which I never run into the last few weeks).

Now Flayer brings a fast finish to the table (like FKZ) and is able to go through those "Prisons". It's a lot slower than LED Dredge with DR Targets but more resilient to the most played hate cards (Surgical).

The question is: Is it worth beeing more resilient by sacrificing the speed in the current meta?

Here is my actual Manaless List (Sideboard still in Dev.):

Deck: Manaless Devil Dredge http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/w.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/u.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/b.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/r.gif http://www.deckstats.net/mana/m/g.gif

//Dredger
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Dakmor Salvage

//Dread Return Targets
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Angel of Despair
3 Sphinx of Lost Truths

//Draw & Discard
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith

//Beatsticks
4 Ichorid
4 Nether Shadow
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast

//Spells
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return

http://i.hbtronix.de/chart_pie.png Deckstatistik anzeigen

As of the other Dredge Variations: I think that both, the Devil Dredge from Ando and the German Quodlazer List are pretty good at what they want to do! :cool: