Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Took this deck to a local store tourney today and just missed the top 8 out of 30 some.
I'd like some help with it if anyone is willing.
This is the list I ran:
Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enchantments (34)
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Suppression Field
3 Defense of the Heart
2 Choke
4 Energy Field
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sea's Claim
2 Spreading Seas
3 Carpet of Flowers
Instants (2)
2 Enlightened Tutor
Lands (18)
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Serra's Sanctum
9 Forest
Sideboard (15)
[cards]4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ethersworn Cannonoist
2 Journey to Nowhere
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Null Rod
1 Choke
1 Acracne Laboratory
Matches in short:
2-0 Combo Elves
First glimpse run fizzels and looses to Defense -> Emrakul
G2 Close to time was going to be a draw, but gives it to me
1-1 GW Maverick
G1 Lock him out with Wheel / field defense -> Emrakul
G2 Loose to a swarm and well times qasali's
Time called
2-0 Elves with Natural Order
Defense Emrakul both games.
1-1 Reanimator with Gizzy
G1 Lock out a horde of fatties with field/wheel and win off a defense - > Emrakul
G2 loose to an reanimated Iona on green. I came down through a T0 Leyline and T2 Wheel on opponent.
5 mins left I offer a draw since it would be more likely I would loose quick the win quick he goes for it.
we play for fun and I land an early defense with orchard and win. oops [shrug]
0-2 Hypergenisis / Show and Tell
G1 lost to t2 show ->emrakul
G2 almost won legend ruled emraul, defense into emrakul. hypergenisis -> terestadon and los
All in all I think to safe to say as is this is a tier 2 deck. I'm hoping with some help it could become a tier 1.5.
I will be looking to find a spot for a Sterling Grove or two.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
How badly are the CoBs hurting you, mana-wise?
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
All in all not that bad. Once you get the Wheel of Sun and Moon / Energy Field lock online as the pilot your in good control of how your life is spent.
If I play with Sterling Grove now that is two tiers of damage hate an opponent has to get through in order to do damage to me. Grove -> E. Field. (WoSaM will put itself on the bottom)
Now having said that there are two sanctioned games in which you could say that City of Brass did do the lethal point of damage to me. G2 of my first RUG delver match at SCG - Orlando, and G2 of Hypergenisis / Sneak and Show.
Perhaps that is too many. Adding grove I think would add more overall consistency to the deck, and more protection to the lock, but is there anything you are pondering as an alternative?
I really feel this is a few cards shy of a tier 1.5 deck.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruticus
I'll try this later in the week and report back.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruticus
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
I'll try this later in the week and report back.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Freggle
list.
-4 City of Brass
-2 Suppression Field
+4 Gemstone Mine
+2 Sterling Grove
I have played the deck with the above changes for around 8 matches. Replacing CoB with GM does make the deck play differently, but overall better.
I never once lost an Energy Field as a result of a loss of counter nor was I put in a position where that could happen. I always used CoB sparingly so using GM has been an improvement.
Swapping Suppression Field for Sterling Grove seems to be working, but it is too early to tell. Having the extra tutors / combo protection seems to be stronger than activated ability disruption. The mana lock Supperssion field provides does not happen often enough to warrant the possibility of it's exclusion. I will continue with this change assessing the slots. However, if this does stick Seal of Removal should be in the 75 again somewhere for tall the Tinker like decks out there today.
Next I will be assessing my current sideboard strategies. Given that there are currently 3 MB Wheel of Sun and Moon I will look to drop Leyline of the Void from my board.
I will also try to find room for Counterbalance / Sensei's Divining Top OR In the Eye of Chaos OR Erayo, Soratami Ascendant in the board over my current combo hate package since my current package does not synergize well with the overall enchantress plan.
I would love to hear any suggestions to raise the tier level of this deck.
PS - I did try Abundant Growth for a bit. The fact that it was not ramp and just color fixing made it not worth the slot.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
It runs counter to the Defense game plan, but with all the fetches and tutors in the format have you considered Stranglehold?
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bruticus
It runs counter to the Defense game plan, but with all the fetches and tutors in the format have you considered
Stranglehold?
I have not. Stranglhold would work in conjunction with the Defense of the Heart plan since it reads opponent. However, the effect for the cost seems a bit underwhelming especially when every one is dropping cards from their hand (Show and Tell and not from their deck Natural Order)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bowvamp
Hey, so I've got a version of this with a couple of changes that I've been testing. I like how it's inexpensive yet powerful against a lot of the meta.
The things I've been testing are
Yavimaya Coast in lieu of
City of Brass,
Green Sun's Zenith over
Enchantress's Presence, and
Wurmcoil Engine replacing the 2nd
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. I also cut the Wheel of Sun and Moons to go for more consistency at establishing a soft lock early on and trying to combo out fast. With GSZ, you get presence that can also be
Dryad Arbor. Unfortunately, it doesn't draw you cards, fortunately if you've got an enchantress effect out already you should be winning.
Reading through the thread again and seeing this with fresh eyes have you tried Natural Order with Progenitus as your second Defense of the Heart target over Wurmcoil Engine?
This deck can draw large amounts of cards (so you can discard Progenitus if he gets in your hand) and can generate copious amounts of mana so you can Green Sun's Progenitus outside of the fast Natural Order.
This seems to go hand in hand with your soft lock fast win plan. I may try this version if my other version falls short.
I intend to update the primer shortly to discuss card choices in depth, and the overall progression of the deck. Currently it's largest weakness is to fast combo. Namely Show and Tell / Hypergenesis and targeted storm.
The deck has an inherent ability to beat dredge given the main deck Wheel of Sun and Moons, Elephant Grasss, and Energy Field. Therefore I think it's time to re-think the entire sideboard and remove Leyline of the Void
Here is where I am currently at, and is play testing very solidly:
Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Enchantments (33)
4 Energy Field
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wheel of Sun and Moon
4 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
3 Defense of the Heart
3 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sea's Claim
1 Choke
3 Carpet of Flowers
Instants (2)
2 Enlightened Tutor
Lands (19)
1 Karakas <---- Main board big guy / Thalia hate.
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Serra's Sanctum
9 Forest
Side Board (15)<---will be 15
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Journey to Nowhere
3 In the Eye of Chaos
4 Seal of Removal
1 Defense of the Heart
? Combo Slots -- Mystic Remora & Mindbreak Trap?
So the Journey's and Seals are an adjustment to the current fast big scary guy meta. This will give me more game against those decks.
Oblivion Ring is in there of more of the same, but can answer an Ensnaring Bridge or any other annoying permanent.
I could really use help as to how best beat combo. It seems like combo is ready for all the permanent ways to deal with them like Ethersworn, but I don't know a good alternative for this deck. I'm open to Solitary Confinement main or board, but I think it will run into more of the same.
So I'd say right now aggro is beat. Control is favorable, and combo needs the most help.
So should it be Mindbreak Trap / Duress / Thoughtseize / Flusterstorm? I'm open to ideas.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
This deck looks awesome!
I have a couple of questions though:
- You started the deck based on the idea of Spreading Seas + Choke + Suppression Field for mana denial, but the most recent version has removed all but 1 of those. What happened? Are people just too good at running few lands?
So if that's the case, why is this better than MUC? Athens Blue runs Energy Field pretty successfully, and it gets to run Back to Basics as well.
- If you're an Enchantress-type deck, why aren't you running max Enchantress's Presence?
- What do you think of 1 or 2 Land Tax and Solitary Confinement? This build looks like it's focused on Energy Field, but Solitary is better if you can set it up properly.
If you're looking to beat Show and Tell and Hypergenesis, you need to get some Humility in the deck. Sb 2-3 should be sufficient. S&T will play bounce, Hypergenesis will play Terrastadon and/or Angel of Despair, so you'll want Sterling Grove in play as well. Keep in mind that if you have Sterling Grove in play when Terastadon ETB, the only legal targets are your lands, Sterling Grove, and whatever he has - he can't nug Sterling Grove and then Presence or whatever.
For ANT, TES, and Belcher, I think the best you're going to be able to do is Leyline of Sanctity and Elephant Grass combined with Sterling Grove. You'll just have to hope that he can't set up and find a bounce spell and find the mana before you can find and play Sterling Grove. Obviously, Solitary stops both the Empty plan and the Tendrils plan on its own, but doesn't start in play. The Empty plan usually won't kill you before his turn 3. Into the Eye of Chaos is garbage and doesn't even stop TES if they're on the Burning Wish plan. Their only instants are Brainstorm and Ad Nauseam postboard (not gonna keep in Chants).
Mindbreak Trap is not stellar. They expect to have to Duress you or Chant you first, so the only way you're ever resolving Mindbreak Trap is if you have Leyline of Sanctity and they don't have Silence (doesn't target). You have to be on the plan of overloading their bounce spells. They'll board in 2-4, but then they have to find them before you find Sterling Groves and have the mana to cast them.
Keep in mind the two most common storm decks are Belcher and TES, followed by High Tide and ANT.
I have no idea how you're beating High Tide. Hope to resolve Choke? When they combo off, expect them to be able to find 2 bounce spells.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
This deck looks awesome!
Thank you. I find it to be oftly fun, and highly competitive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I have a couple of questions though:
- You started the deck based on the idea of Spreading Seas + Choke + Suppression Field for mana denial, but the most recent version has removed all but 1 of those. What happened? Are people just too good at running few lands?
You are right. The deck did start out with a high prison quality to it, and has slowly drifted from it.
The drift is a work in progress however.
All the island enchants are not THAT great against blue mages. for example, and ultimately not what you need to be doing against Maverick players as well. So I started trimming them down. I started with Spreading Seas because it was the one that had a higher CMC. I found lowering them did not lower the overall potency of the deck. As a matter of fact swapping those slots for Energy Field & Elephant Grass copies number 4 was the right thing to do. It allows the deck to stabilize earlier rather than hope for the long game and lock.
This still feels like the right thing to do.
I also then found that Wheel of Sun and Moon & Energy Field just out right beats more decks than you would think. If it's landed you win. So I started upping the WoSaM over Suppression Field. I can say without a doubt that upping the WoSaM is most certainly the right call, but over SF I'm still assessing it.
Suppression Field is good at slowing the game down, but not winning it. Stacking them was usefull for plainswalkers but it was slow. Hitting fetches was nice but not game breaking. WoSaM Just packed a bigger punch.
I cut the last 2 SP to make room for 2 Sterling Grove recently. This gives more overall consistency to the deck as a result of the tutor function, and more stability because of the shroud. Is this right? It's far to early to tell, but I'm thinking it may be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
So if that's the case, why is this better than MUC? Athens Blue runs Energy Field pretty successfully, and it gets to run Back to Basics as well.
To be honest I was not familiar with Athens Blue till I read this. I'm approaching this from an enchantress point of view and not a control perspective.
I'm a little confused as to how Energy Field would work well with counter magic without WoSaM, but I read it hit a T8 in 2011 so I guess it does.
From what I have read on MUC it runs out of gas about mid game. Break down their early disruption and you win. I can say without a doubt that this enchantress build is exactly the opposite. It has an aggressive start that only builds stronger and stronger.
A back to Basics Enchantress build with an alt wincon may be better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
- If you're an Enchantress-type deck, why aren't you running max Enchantress's Presence?
My goal is to push Enchantress back to Tier 1 status. In order to do that you need a deck that is more consistent than the traditional enchantress. My approach to this issue is to develop wincons that can be used outside an enchantress effect.
Currently if your opponent can deal with the enchantress effect via counter magic, or edict effects ... traditional enchantress flops miserably. This version does not. The enchantress effects are there more to ensure it's inevitability. No play a role in it's win.
Therefore it is no longer the thing to counter, but it will eventually win you the game.
Since this deck does not hinge on the resolution or sticking an enchantress effect nearly as much 3 EP is more than sufficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
- What do you think of 1 or 2 Land Tax and Solitary Confinement? This build looks like it's focused on Energy Field, but Solitary is better if you can set it up properly.
It's the set it up properly that is the point. SC + LT gets you nowhere without an enchatress effect in hand and an enchantment in your hand. You skip your draw step.
Running E. Field allows us to stabilize sans an enchantress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
If you're looking to beat Show and Tell and Hypergenesis, you need to get some Humility in the deck. Sb 2-3 should be sufficient.
This will disrupt our Emrakul wincon. Seal of Removal seems pretty sweet here. So easy to drop, and works on a lot of stuff. Once the deck gets going you can drop one to 4 every turn. It gets into a recur loop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
S&T will play bounce, Hypergenesis will play Terrastadon and/or Angel of Despair, so you'll want Sterling Grove in play as well. Keep in mind that if you have Sterling Grove in play when Terastadon ETB, the only legal targets are your lands, Sterling Grove, and whatever he has - he can't nug Sterling Grove and then Presence or whatever.
I ran into this in my last tournament when I was not running grove. This is part of what has sold me on grove's inclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
For ANT, TES, and Belcher, I think the best you're going to be able to do is Leyline of Sanctity and Elephant Grass combined with Sterling Grove. You'll just have to hope that he can't set up and find a bounce spell and find the mana before you can find and play Sterling Grove. Obviously, Solitary stops both the Empty plan and the Tendrils plan on its own, but doesn't start in play. The Empty plan usually won't kill you before his turn 3. Into the Eye of Chaos is garbage and doesn't even stop TES if they're on the Burning Wish plan. Their only instants are Brainstorm and Ad Nauseam postboard (not gonna keep in Chants).
Mindbreak Trap is not stellar. They expect to have to Duress you or Chant you first, so the only way you're ever resolving Mindbreak Trap is if you have Leyline of Sanctity and they don't have Silence (doesn't target). You have to be on the plan of overloading their bounce spells. They'll board in 2-4, but then they have to find them before you find Sterling Groves and have the mana to cast them.
Keep in mind the two most common storm decks are Belcher and TES, followed by High Tide and ANT.
I have no idea how you're beating High Tide. Hope to resolve Choke? When they combo off, expect them to be able to find 2 bounce spells.
Thanks fort this input. I just have not had any luck with this plan. I will test it though. ...but this was pre-grove. As for high tide I never squared off against them with this list.
If they do brainfreeze however I do have 2 Emrakul.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Can you talk about what you still find strong about Sea's Claim now that you've cut Spreading Seas?
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Is there a place for Greater Auramancy in the SB, as a potential hard-lock?
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
A bit pressed for time but I wanted to answer these:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
waSP
Can you talk about what you still find strong about Sea's Claim now that you've cut Spreading Seas?
Sea's claim still fuels Carpet of Flowers which is instrumental to this decks mid-game explosion.
It provides cheap disruption to black discard based decks. A know bad enchantress MU that wasn't bad with earlier builds (haven't tested with Spreading Seas-less builds)
Also deals with special lands like Karakas which has happened in two sanctioned games now FTW. see also Gaea's Cradle.
It does suck that sometimes Emrakul's anihilator does allow claims / spreading to go to your yard killing field, but you are likely winning at that point anyhow. ...and I haven't lost as a result of this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Darkenslight
There may be over Sterling Grove. If I'm not mistaken 2 groves is also a hard lock. ...but Sterling Grove has been clunky to cast from time to time. I like how Greater Auramancy can be cast off of a Serra's Sanctum alone. I'll keep this in the back of my mind when looking at how grove is functioning (or not functioning) in my build.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
To answer Karakas, you could run an alternative guy along with Emrakul. Maybe Progenitus?
Have you considered an alternative acceleration engine (maybe Eladamri's Vineyard over Sea's Claim/Carpet of Flowers now that you're no longer going for a hard lock? Although it doesn't really play very nice with Elephant Grass (they can do stuff and still maybe attack). It could free up a few slots which could be used to help with Sterling Groves and Energy Fields. You could run Abundant Growth or Fertile Ground as fixers. It's not as game-breaking, but it could be an incremental improvement for the early/mid game to make you more consistent. Abundant Growth is a cantrip and Fertile Ground acts like Utopia Sprawls 5-8.
Also, Replenish is very strong with the number of Wheel of Sun and Moon you have. You should consider 1-2 as your build continues to move towards a more aggressive version of the typical build.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
i use 2x Wild Growth to make more consistent the early and less mulligan.
current list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
3 Enchantress's Presence
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Defense of the Heart
4 Energy Field
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
3 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
4 Sea's Claim
1 Choke
1 Suppression Field
2 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Carpet of Flowers
20land in here.
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Serra's Sanctum
11 Forest
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 3 Journey to Nowhere
SB: 4 Seal of Removal
SB: 3 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Elephant Grass
SB: 1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 Leyline of Sanctity
maybe need another win con other than Emrakul in main or SB
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
As a matter of fact swapping those slots for Energy Field & Elephant Grass copies number 4 was the right thing to do. It allows the deck to stabilize earlier rather than hope for the long game and lock.
That's reasonable. It's good you've found a gameplan and are building to maximize it.
Quote:
I also then found that Wheel of Sun and Moon & Energy Field just out right beats more decks than you would think. If it's landed you win. So I started upping the WoSaM over Suppression Field. I can say without a doubt that upping the WoSaM is most certainly the right call, but over SF I'm still assessing it.
I can see how it's good against Dredge and Reanimator game1 if they give you the time to get it down, but at the end of the day, isn't Energy Field + Wheel a two card combo just like Solitary Confinement + Land Tax / Argothian Enchantress / Enchantress's Presence? The difference is that the latter cards are good on their own and you have more of them.
Quote:
Currently if your opponent can deal with the enchantress effect via counter magic, or edict effects ... traditional enchantress flops miserably. This version does not. The enchantress effects are there more to ensure it's inevitability. No play a role in it's win.
You're right that the Defense of the Hearts add the ability to just win that traditional Enchantress builds don't. But you're thinking about the Enchantress effects backwards! They don't need to win you the game, they're either Hymn to Tourach or Tidings! Your opponent either has to dramatically tilt his deck to kill them / spend multiple cards to counter them, or you'll get so far ahead of him on cards that it's difficult for him to win. If he spends resources countering Presence, you can drop Defense of the Heart and lol. It's like Glimpse in the Elf deck - just by playing your deck you're drawing cards!
Quote:
It's the set it up properly that is the point. SC + LT gets you nowhere without an enchatress effect in hand and an enchantment in your hand. You skip your draw step.
Running E. Field allows us to stabilize sans an enchantress.
I guess if you're just using Energy Field to fog for a couple of turns then it's definitely better. I'm just not a huge fan of running a 2-card combo that doesn't do a whole lot on its own. I don't think it would be unreasonable to have 1 Solitary that you can Grove for though.
Re: Humility:
Quote:
This will disrupt our Emrakul wincon. Seal of Removal seems pretty sweet here. So easy to drop, and works on a lot of stuff. Once the deck gets going you can drop one to 4 every turn. It gets into a recur loop.
Look, you asked how to beat Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Humility is the best card in the format for that. They're faster and more consistent in getting a fatty into play than you are, but you don't actually need that much to hard-lock them if you have Humility. I think you should board out Emrakuls and Defense and board in Humility and some sort of alternate win condition. It's unfortunate they play Emrakul because otherwise you could just deck them by hardlocking them and having Wheel. Have you thought about Helix Pinnacle since you can generate such an obscene amount of mana?
High Tide can easily win with BSZ for a billion, so Emrakul isn't relevant.
You're correct that 2 Sterling Groves means none of your enchantments can be targeted. The only answers I've ever seen played for situations like that are like EE on 2 and Reverent Silence. Sterling Grove is probably one of the best cards in your deck - very reasonable to play more. Maybe -1 Defense, -2 Wheel for +1 Grove, +1 Helix Pinnacle, +1 Solitary Confinement?
You could possibly substitute a Mirri's Guile for Emrakul to help prevent you from drawing him. You have enough card draw that discarding Emrukul to shuffle him back in doesn't seem unreasonable.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Helix Pinnacle
thx i have my alternat wincon for the 2nd game plan, too much possible solution for emrakul.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Quote:
Originally Posted by
nosfell
list.
I like where this is going, and it is good to see others testing. Are you experiencing similar results? Typically crushes aggro, favorable to fair against control (pending openers and builds) and need to be lucky to beat combo?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I can see how it's good against Dredge and Reanimator game1 if they give you the time to get it down, but at the end of the day, isn't Energy Field + Wheel a two card combo just like Solitary Confinement + Land Tax / Argothian Enchantress / Enchantress's Presence? The difference is that the latter cards are good on their own and you have more of them.
No. Solitary Confinement is at minimum a 3 card combo. Solitary Confinement + Argothian Enchantress (or equivalent) and an uplayed enchantment. Even then you have to have a string of luck draws not to eventually sacrifice confinement.
Land Tax will not progress the game. You would only pull lands out of your deck play some discard others not draw and pass the turn. Eventually you would run out of lands and sac. Confinement. Next overall use virtually zero.
As for the cards being good on their own? Confinement is not good all on it's own and is dead early game. Land Tax is decent, and would work best with Mirri's Guile or Sylvan Library, but on it's own it does something. ...but Enchantress's do nothing on their own, but I get your point you want to run more of them anyhow. So as far as the deck it is a dual purpose slot.
If you would like to read more on this topic you can read about it in the Enchantress (Solitaire) thread here. I also have comments in there on earlier pages about this type of build.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
You're right that the Defense of the Hearts add the ability to just win that traditional Enchantress builds don't. But you're thinking about the Enchantress effects backwards! They don't need to win you the game, they're either
Hymn to Tourach or
Tidings! Your opponent either has to dramatically tilt his deck to kill them / spend multiple cards to counter them, or you'll get so far ahead of him on cards that it's difficult for him to win. If he spends resources countering Presence, you can drop Defense of the Heart and lol. It's like Glimpse in the Elf deck - just by playing your deck you're drawing cards!
Actually that is exactly how I think about Enchantress. I just think the further you separate the win from the draw the stronger the deck against control. It's not a hymn though, but I get the point.
This takes away the deck singular focus and is tougher to beat. Enchantress's in this build are nothing more than draw spells. Not win combos. This gives the deck something relevant to do with all cards regardless of board state, and removes the clause that enchantress's best opener is forest / sprawl /forest argothian / enchantment.
That's a lot of durdle in one of the most important parts of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I guess if you're just using Energy Field to fog for a couple of turns then it's definitely better. I'm just not a huge fan of running a 2-card combo that doesn't do a whole lot on its own. I don't think it would be unreasonable to have 1 Solitary that you can Grove for though.
It is my contention that it does do more on it's own then Solitary confinement. Wheel of Sun and Moon meddles with graveyard shenanigans, and helps us not draw our libraries. Energy Field fogs until delt with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Re: Humility:
Look, you asked how to beat Sneak and Show and Reanimator. Humility is the best card in the format for that. They're faster and more consistent in getting a fatty into play than you are, but you don't actually need that much to hard-lock them if you have Humility. I think you should board out Emrakuls and Defense and board in Humility and some sort of alternate win condition. It's unfortunate they play Emrakul because otherwise you could just deck them by hardlocking them and having Wheel.
I got-cha. ...and thank you for the help. It's just that is also shuts off Argothian Enchantress it's still better than loosing though. It's just a hard pill to swallow to go down that route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Have you thought about
Helix Pinnacle since you can generate such an obscene amount of mana?
It's funny you should ask I have, it's just I haven't found an infinite enchantress combo that would be sweet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
High Tide can easily win with BSZ for a billion, so Emrakul isn't relevant.
Well, not that it's super relevant. You could do the Elephant Grass or Sterling Grove out with a Wheel of Sun and Moon to get something to the graveyard (correction Library) before your draw then make it to discard and put your deck back. ...but that's not super awesome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
You're correct that 2 Sterling Groves means none of your enchantments can be targeted. The only answers I've ever seen played for situations like that are like EE on 2 and
Reverent Silence. Sterling Grove is probably one of the best cards in your deck - very reasonable to play more. Maybe -1 Defense, -2 Wheel for +1 Grove, +1 Helix Pinnacle, +1 Solitary Confinement?
You could possibly substitute a
Mirri's Guile for Emrakul to help prevent you from drawing him. You have enough card draw that discarding Emrukul to shuffle him back in doesn't seem unreasonable.
Given the amount of cards drawn I'm not sure if Guile is right.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
In testing this weekend (I did not make it to GP Atlanta due to work travel complications) I had the following observations:
- The deck is at it’s weakest within the first 4 turns of the game
o Decks like Sneak and Show, Show and Tell / Hypergenisis, reanimator all prey on
this window and current builds are just far too slow for these MU’s
- The mana base in these tighter games can be frustrating.
o Since you have a very tight window in these MU’s your mana is less forgiving I have been re-evaluating the manabase to make the deck overall better.
- Since Reanimator is such an issue I have brought back the (4) Sideboard Leyline of the Void
o Without void our matchup rate was somewhere on the order of 45/55 loosing. With Void its in the area of 60 /40. Therefore as long as this is the meta Void should remain. This will also help with other yard based MU’s where Wheel is too slow / counterable.
- Storm MU is a real problem, solutions posted later.
- This is an enchantress combo deck
o Since I finally realized that this is an Enchantress Combo deck I thought I would try some combo strategies to push our lists agenda.
- Sterling Grove feels a bit too slow for a top deck tutor & shroud is only situationaly useful.
This card has been deemed by me for this build to be too underpowered for it slot currently.
After making minor tweaks all day yesterday, and trying a multitude of things here is the list that I feel is best suited for today’s meta game. I am posting this here to get peoples input to develop this basis to its final optimal list.
Creatures (6)
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Instants (6)
4 Spell Pierce
2 Enlightened Tutor
Enchantments (30)
4 Energy Field
3 Elephant Grass
4 Sea’s Claim
3 Spreading Seas
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Choke
3 Enchantress’s Presence
3 Defense of the Heart
3 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
Lands (18)
4 Gemstone Mine
3 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Serra’s Sanctum
6 Forest
Sideboard [Not Fully Defined]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
The rest
I’m sure this list will spur conversation. The shift of this deck is to tempo out the first 4-5 turns to get us to our wheel house and dominate the mid to late game. This will allow us to not get blown out by an early Show and tell as we can now interact with it on the stack.
Inquisition / Pierce should give us substantially more game against combo.
Inquisition also allows us to pull threats from RUG delver before they are threats giving us more time to lock them out with wheel / field and or choke. As opposed to the struggle we face now we face with their tempo cards. Here pierce flips the script and forces through our combo / lock pieces as opposed to slowing the game.
I’m still working on a new primer, but the deck is evolving a bit too much to post it. I’d love to hear peoples thoughts. I feel this is going in a good direction.
Re: [Developmental] Spreading Illusions - An Enchantress Variant
Just read over the thread; let me say, awesome that you threw in Suppression Field into Enchantress. Looks like someone beat me to the punch. Oh well.
I looked over the latest list, and I think you want to be careful about the Inst/Sorc (+Sterling Grove, Solt Conf) you end up throwing in here. Your opponent will obv take advantage of playing their game-breaking spells before their attack phase, and try to make you crack your own Energy Field FTW. It's still your option how you play, but the more Inst/Sorc you run means the more your deck will stomp on its own feet instead of playing optimally when it needs to. I think in an optimal build of this there may be 1-2 cards (hopefully none) you should be mindful of with Eng Field when you don't have WoSaM, cause it makes round 6+ that much easier for you to snooze through. Otherwise, I'm nuking your Wheel all the time 'cause it's really the linchpin of your gameplan.
I know I play this in practically every deck I build, but how about Chrome Mox? Imprint WoSaM will give you white, which can mean a T1 Suppression Field. SF on T1, on the play, makes your RUG opponent's Wastelands more valuable than their Fetches, and generally causes ROFLs. Even though Field slows them down a bit, taxing their mana both ways w/Elph Grass (1-2 Ghostly Prison?) will make them decide to crack a fetch or attack each turn, kind of a nightmare for Spell Pierce and the like. Also T1 Enchantress should come out pretty naturally, but I worry about hitting your other relevant white cards T1. The disruption's probably generally more valuable T1, 2 than worrying about card advantage.
For that same reason, I wouldn't bother with Mox Diamond or other accelerants here. Another way to make you kill your own Eng Field. Good luck!
EDIT: Oh yeah, and I think Sup Field may be sub-par most games because 90% of ppl don't enforce it right. I think I hit 80%-ish of its relevant targets, cause it taxes Wasteland's sac (to protect your Forb Orch), Sensei's Top (total ROFL-copters), Jitte/Stoneforge Mystic/ Equipping, your own Sterling Groves, Wirewood Symbiote, (planeswalkers, as prev mentioned) and like a million other things that I still probably miss. Just take a look through the top 4-5 decks ahead of time and try to catch all the act abilities in each one, it's a total b****, but it's what you have to do to make it good. When you play RandomJank.dec, you're bound to miss 50% of those targets off the bat, so just play a ton of random games to try to spot them.
