Printable View
Agreed, it's more a question of whether or not you want to play with Grove of the Burnwillows and Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek or Wasteland and Hymn to Tourach, the Punishing Fires slot may as well be Chain Lightning for all it matters - Umezawa's Jitte is the card you want against aggro anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by ivanpei
Yes. The second best game breaking card once active - second only to Jace. Just added it back to my list, don't know why I took it out before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I ask in the Jund thread as I know that you are the experts:
Is there a way RUG Delver can beat Jund or have a fair chance? And if yes, with which hate cards in the MD and SB? Thanks in advance for your replies ;-)
I would suggest switching to straight u/r delver with a ton of burn. Rug fundamentally is too slow to kill jund before the card advantage engine starts rolling. Also jund is notoriously weak to burn like most mid range decks are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Thanks but that was not an answer to my question :) UR Delver is not a good deck in my opinion. It is perhaps good vs Jund and BUG, but is also weak to many other decks.
Manascrew him, it's probably the only real way to win. Stifle, Wasteland, Life from the Loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasan
Or Price of Progress, Sulfuric Vortex, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ykpon
-Matt
Is anyone else worried about Leyline of Sanctity from Sneak and Show's SB?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=52541
Leyline is a problem, yes. There really isn't much you can do against that unfortunately, the solutions we have, Krosan Grip and Maelstrom Pulse can be very slow. Best case scenario, you cast one on turn 2, but they will go off on turn 3. If they are on the play, it literally is impossible to stop that. You can only hope to both have a Liliana and to kill their Leyline so you can kill their creature. Notice that a turn 2 Liliana is preferable, because if they drop Griselbrand, they might be able to FoW your Liliana on turn 3, but they cannot FoW your Krosan Grip.
Not a pleasant situation.
As for Punishing Fire, here's the problem.
First, it's terrible against combo. So is a lot of this deck, so that might not be a reason, but it's absolutely terrible in general. 3 mana to do 1 damage is not exciting. In a match-up where you want to race them quickly as your only chance of winning, you don't want to durdle around with this at all. Chain Lightning is much better.
It does give you inevitability against control of sorts, because you are able to punch through their counterspells, but it is STILL slow. You do counter Jace pretty good, and that's a BIG plus for it, but you can't reliably claim it is a win condition because they will draw into their condititions. It is best against control, yes.
Against aggro, well, it might be worth trying, but it's bad against RUG with all their cheap distruption. Also, it relies upon a card you cannot fetch, so sometimes all you get is 2 damage for 2 mana. I once was worried about how bad Grove is without Punishing Fires, and that holds true still.
It's not the most atrocious card, no, but I don't know if it's good enough. In Aggro Loam, it was a consideration, especially in lists running 4 Chalice of the Void. That's a different Jund branch.
http://www.twitch.tv/mishimakaz
Streaming lots of Legacy Jund tonight at 6 PM EST. MOCS preliminaries tomorrow at 9 AM EST.
:D
PFire is good against decks with x/1-2 creatures or Goyf. It is also good against Planeswalkers. And unless the Heavens align against you, it is much more likely that your PFire will screw their Deathrite than the other way around. If you want more game against any of these things, then cut the Grims and a Bolt and add in Punishing Fire. To be honest I'm not sure where you'd rather increase your MU %s because there's no way combo is getting any better pre-board. (PS Grim Lavamancer is much too slow against Elves)
It's doubly bad vs combo because you cut Wastelands, I don't think people appreciate how much that card improves fringe match ups in this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by razvan
Won a Magic-League trial and 4-0'ed a Legacy Daily Event with a list similar to the GP Denver lists.
You can catch the replays on my stream channel on twitchtv.
Play more Pyros. I'm seeing alot of 3/3 Pyro/Duress split in the board but I believe a 4/2 split is more optimal. A bunch of discard does nothing againt a leyline while Pyros can knock down intuitions and show and tells. However a leyline is still harsh in any case and chances of winning against a leyline is really low. Once they have it up, it takes you 3 mana to remove it with Grip/Pulse AND you have to cast all the discard in your hand. Sneakshow can go off much earlier than this. Your best hope is to play more pyros instead of discard and hope to slow their hand down with pyro/rebs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Legacy
Hello jund players!, I tested the punishing build in our local shop and end up 3-2. For quick reference here's my build
4 deathrite shaman
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 bloodbraid elf
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
4 lightning bolt
4 abrupt decay
3 punishing fire
2 liliana of the veil
1 sylvan library
4 verdant catacombs
4 grove of the burnwillows
4 marsh flats
3 bayou
2 badlands
2 swamp
1 forest
1 mountain
1 taiga
//sideboard
3 kitchen finks
3 surgical extraction
3 slaughter games
2 pernicious deed
2 engineered plague
1 life from the loam
Matches
R1 vs reanimator: 1-2, stuck to one land on game 3 but i have resolved 1 tormod's crypt and 1 surgical extraction on hand unfortunately he show and tell for griselbrand and i can't beat that!
R2 vs MBC: 2-1, punishing fire is good here killing most of his creatures gatekeeper, nantuko, nighthawk to name a few and his own liliana.
R3 vs UB mill: 2-1, disruption plus slaughter games on his key cards and it's game.
R4 vs RDW: 2-1, early punishing fire killed his guides and followed by tarmo as a wall and deathrite ate his GY.
R5 vs jund: 0-2, wasteland knocked me, and stuck on 1 land continuously drawing spells but no land and i can't recover on that, same as game 2
Notes: i only run 22 lands and i suffer the prize sometimes having good spells at opening 7 but having 1 hand on it. Punishing fire is good maybe for future plans i will remove some spells to up the land count to 23 or 24, another plan is to test the normal build of jund and weight it's impact.
Thanks!
Why Slaughter Games over Extirpate?
With all the discard E. should be better against Combo turn 3/4 VS. turn 2 makes a difference.
Same for all other opposing CMC 4 bombs. If they go first and we don't get a Shaman start they just ignore S. G. and just play their threat, however BS in response to discard can be an issue.
Atm i have surgical on my 75 that can act as an extirpate, plus slaughter games can be shattering against controls decks, naming jace the mindsculptor against miracles can be backbreaking and also entreat the angels. Against combo decks we cant wait to show up on our thoughtseizes/duress/IOK cards that combo decks abusing, and also we can't wait to afford to see cards of a combo deck on his/her GY to be extirpated. So i think we can proactively remove their significant combo pcs just an added option to slow them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
On the grind side i haven't test my 75 against a combo deck, so i can't make conclusions about my current 75 against it. Only my hypothesis.
0-2ed the first MOCS preliminary (locked in at 6 rounds of Swiss) with the list I streamed Friday night. I lost to belcher round 1 and MUD round 2.
The next preliminary, I changed the SB by adding Leyline of Sanctity to combat the MTGO combo metagame.
// Lands
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Badlands
3 [B] Bayou
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Bloodstained Mire
1 [CHK] Mountain (3)
1 [PT] Forest (3)
1 [US] Swamp (2)
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures
3 [ARB] Bloodbraid Elf
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
// Spells
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
3 [RTR] Abrupt Decay
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
4 [A] Lightning Bolt
1 [LG] Sylvan Library
3 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
Round 1: Standard Bant control
He was trying to mise free Force of Will promos. Obviously I won.
1-0 in matches
Round 2: UR Omnishow
Mulliganed into a resonable 6 card hand without hand disruption. I lost to a turn 2 Griselbrand.
The next game I made a terrible mulligan (Pyroblast, Goyf, Goyf, Bloodbraid, 3 lands of three colors was first hand). I mulliganed into lands, Deathrite Shaman and Liliana. My initial reasoning was that I needed to mulligan into hand disruption. But the 6 card seemed good because I could turn 2 a Liliana if he goes for Emrakul. He turn 1'ed a Show and Tell into Omniscience and I got ROFLStomped.
1-1 in matches
Round 3: Mono-Red Painter
I opened with a Thoughtseize for his Blood Moon on the play. My hand was full of removal, so he never got a chance to combo off.
I thought about sideing in Leylines, but I did not. My plan was to fetch basics and just kill all his Painters. He comboed off turn 2 with double Ancient Tomb.
On game 3 he resolved a Blood Moon, but I had the Bolt for his painter. At a certain point the only creature I had was Deathrite Shaman with only one land in all graveyards, there was an Ancient Grudge in my graveyard, and all lands were Mountains, and he was on topdeck with a Grindstone in play. I drew a Bloodbraid Elf and tanked. If I tap to cast my Bloodbraid Elf, I won't have access to green mana to flashback Ancient Grudge. But If I don't pressure him with bloodbraid elf, he can just overwhelm my limited resources by just drawing Imperial recruiters and Painters. I chose to cast Bloodbraid, flipped an Abrupt Decay for his Blood Moon and I cruised my way to victory.
2-1 in matches
Round 4: UW Aggressive Stoneblade
His list was real weird. Typical cards like Jace, StP, Crucible of the Worlds, Wasteland. But he was also maindecking Geist of Saint Traft and Stifle.
He Mulliganed to 5 on the draw, while I kept my 7. My early disruption got what was left of his hand and he got ran over by Goyfs.
I don't quite remember the details for game 2. But I remember I got some Thoughtseizes going and some uncontested Goyfs ran him over.
3-1 Matches
Round 5: UW Miracles
I won game 1 as he ran out of answers to my threats.
On game 2 he sided in Rest in Peace which turned out to be pretty good when I drew 2 Goyfs and a LIfe from the Loam I should have never sided in. At a certain point, I decided to not play my 4th land before I casted my Abrupt Decay targeting his Rest in Peace. My reasoning was that hiding information from him might make him misplay. I then proceeded to get blown out by a Divert that sent the Decay to my Tarmogoyf. That last Tarmogoyf turned out to be important as I was one threat short of killing him before he assembled Entreat the Angels.
Game 3 got very exciting when he went through 2 Fetchlands and a Brainstorm with his top before he finally found a Terminus for my Bloodbraid, Dark Confidant, and Tarmogoyf. He made the mistake of getting greedy and not using Terminus on his turn. As a result I got an extra Dark Confidant trigger. He eventually stablized by Detention Sphering my last threat (Tarmogoyf), assembling a Counter balance and SDT. I topdecked an Abrupt Decay when he was at 4 life. On his next turn he tapped out to play Jace TMS, leaving Polluted Delta untapped. I casted my Decay at the end of his turn to get my Goyf back to finish his last 4 life points off when his random card off Top was not Swords to plowshares or Terminus.
4-1 in matches.
Round 6: RUG Delver
I mulliganed game 1 on the play into 5 lands and Grim Lavamancer in the dark. I drew pretty well after that, but unfortunately his last card was Nimble Mongoose and I could not draw a Liliana, Goyf or Bloodbraid.
Game 2, I might have made some poor sequencing errors(playing around the Stifle I saw from Thoughtseize incorrectly). After some trading, his last card was a Delver of Secrets and no lands. I drew all lands and died with my next cards being Bolt and Bloodbraid. If I had played against his Stifle more aggressively, I could have avoided 3 extra damage and had more time to draw an answer for his Delver.
4-2 in matches; not q'ed for MOCS season finals, but I got another Force of Will promo for efforts.
Unfortunately I made a dumb mistake of not checking my QPs before the season ended. I thought I had 45 (15 QPs needed to play each preliminary). I only had 44 and I was thus unable to play a 3rd MOCS preliminary. :(
Also half my SB was useless as I never sided in Plagues or Leylines in the 2nd MOCS preliminary.
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Sylvan Library
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bloodstained Mire
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Life from the Loam
SB: 1 Hymn to Tourach
SB: 3 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Duress
Went 5-0-1 today for 1st/47 at a monthly local.
R1 2-1 against Goblins
G1: He runs me over with perfect topdecks after my few disruption spells in the early game.
G2: Plague + Jitte
G3: T2 and T4 Plague
R2 2-1 against Pun Nic Fit
G1: mull to Seize Seize Seize Waste Fetch Fetch (kept, i was on the play and he usually plays Reanimator/Combo), got man-handled by Thrun quickly.
G2: Fast beats with double Hymn into double BBE into Confi/Goof
G3: see G2
R3 2-0 against Shardless BUG
Both games were pretty brutal and fast, i could handle his DRS directly and had double Goof followed by double Goof in G2.
R4 2-0 against BUG Delver
DRS into Goof + Seize into Hymn + Bob was all she wrote.
G2 i started with triple Wasteland as he had no plays into Loam + Goof Goof Lilly Lilly
R5 2-1 against Junk
Some nice rounds, where both games i won were decided mostly on getting down the first Deahtrite and keeping him alive.
Lavamancers did some serious work here, as did triple Confidant on beatdown while flipping multiple Wastelands.
R6 ID against Maverick for 1st, i was the only 5-0 and he was fine with the draw.
Yeah, the Junk match is all about, "Who can keep DRS alive and working?" Congrats on the finish by the way!
-Matt