[Primer/Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I disagree on Skullcrack. It costs a bit more than some other cards, but it really does throw a spanner in the works of Blade decks and they are getting common enough to think about Maindeck answers for them.

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Skullcrack only stops life gain for one turn, what is a better choice (at least I believe so) is to take care of the card that is gaining them life. Options like Smash to Smithereens and Shattering Spree seem like much better choices to me. I would rather take care of my problems than delay them. To combat the blade variants, I would think about Grim Lavamancer, the card kills every creature they have except Batterskull, and if they can't equip anything, they sit there and lose the game. I have to say I agree with iamajellydonut on a lot of things he has said and I have a lot of experience playing the deck to know that he has the best in mind for everyone so far.

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Originally Posted by JPettie

Skullcrack only stops life gain for one turn, what is a better choice (at least I believe so) is to take care of the card that is gaining them life. Options like Smash to Smithereens and Shattering Spree seem like much better choices to me. I would rather take care of my problems than delay them. To combat the blade variants, I would think about Grim Lavamancer, the card kills every creature they have except Batterskull, and if they can't equip anything, they sit there and lose the game. I have to say I agree with iamajellydonut on a lot of things he has said and I have a lot of experience playing the deck to know that he has the best in mind for everyone so far.

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I agree. My only issue with Art hate is that you have to board it is so it will not save you game one. Skull gives you game one options. I would like to add that it is a personal choice based on Meta issues. The "Damage can't be prevented this turn" is really the thing that is most useful when you have players that sit behind Glacial Chasm and cause you headaches.

I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.

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What bizarre meta are you playing in? Aside from the occasional Kitchen Finks and the "why are you killing creatures in the first place but not this" Deathrite Shaman, the only popular maindeck lifegain right now is Batterskull. If a deck can get a Batterskull out before you can kill them, you're in a really shit place regardless. Even if you Skullcrack, Batterskull still shuts down Goblin Guide and will proceed to massacre you on future turns that they are now insured to have since you wasted mana on an inefficient spell.

If you want do deal with something, you deal with it. If your problem is Batterskull, you're either...

A) Not reliably killing them by turn six.
B) Not dealing with the Stoneforge Mystic or reliably killing them by turn four.

If you have some insolent mindset against using common spells to kill Stoneforge, then run Volcanic Fallout or something. Fallout may be three mana, but at least it's multipurpose, non-targeting, can't be countered, and rapes the world. In the meantime, Skullcrack does "stuff" at best. I wouldn't even call Glacial Chasm a good enough reason to run Skullcrack. Blood Moon is a solid post-board answer if your meta truly calls for something, and "use instants better" is a viable answer in general.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I agree. My only issue with Art hate is that you have to board it is so it will not save you game one. Skull gives you game one options. I would like to add that it is a personal choice based on Meta issues. The "Damage can't be prevented this turn" is really the thing that is most useful when you have players that sit behind Glacial Chasm and cause you headaches.

I will say this. I think that Skull is maindeck viable with an easy option to side it out if it happens to be unneeded. There is just too much lifegain in the game right now and Art hate maindeck is not something I would run.

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I feel like Burn has a good match up against Blade decks (at least ones without Deathrite Shaman). If you really have a problem with that archetype, I would suggest going Grims and prioritizing burn on their creatures along with trying to land a Sulfuric Vortex which wins the match up right there. Game one really doesn't seem like a loss to me based on not having Skullcrack. I can see your use of it, but it reduces your average kill turn because of being 2cc. I mean to be honest, the only reason we play Flame Rift that I know of is that it is 2 for 4. I can't justify a 2 for 3 when the rest of the deck runs 1 for 3 and it doesn't have the reach of being able to kill a creature as well. Dealing with creatures and playing a longer game one is not the worst situation you could be in I don't believe and if you side in artifact hate game two and three seem a lot better for you. It really is a tough choice when it comes to changing Burn in any way, even the sideboard is iffy because there are so many bad match ups for us. I try to evaluate a card in maindeck based on all situations that would occur and Skullcrack lacks in that department versus other cards for me. As a final note, never be afraid to Fireblast a Batterskull, I have won games because of it. ;)

Here in my place, Stoneforge into Batterskull, or Show and Tell into Griselbrand were dominating before. That's why I opt for a set of skullcrack in my main deck.

Now that my meta is shifting from those mentioned above into jund, nic fit, shardless bug, I think I'll replace the cracks with Searing Blaze. I still have a set of sulfuric vortex to deal with some life gaining effects.

Has anyone tested young pyromancer in burn yet???

Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??

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Originally Posted by vennie

Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??

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I do not understand this question. City in a Bottle does very little as almost no one plays with Arabian Nights cards. It is erated to only target cards from the set, not cards that are reprints so it does not hose land if thats what you are meaning.

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Originally Posted by vennie

Am I correct if I say City in a bottle really kills mono red burn if you have a way to deal with any resolved non-land permanents since you have no mana left to play anything??

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Prior to the rule change, if you were playing someone with a 100% AN mountains yes, it would be effective.
Since the 13th of July, an errata on the rule changed all that. It won't affect them since their original printing was Alpha.

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Originally Posted by Kayradis

Prior to the rule change, if you were playing someone with a 100% AN mountains yes, it would be effective.
Since the 13th of July, an errata on the rule changed all that. It won't affect them since their original printing was Alpha.



Wait...

Why would someone sane play with all AN Mountain in Burn? Get a life!

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Ah, I guess i just made a mistake here. Thought it now hit all cards printed in AN, but it now is all cards that were first printed in AN.

Quick splash overview for those in Wasteland-lite environments:

Blue
Delver + Brainstorm
SB: Submerge (Not a huge fan, it doesn't deal damage directly or solve a problem)
Delver is the strongest splash card available and Brainstorm fits the deck very well. I do not like adding countermagic beyond this. Most people play around Daze/Pierce/FoW anyway.

Black
Bump in the Night
SB: Thoughtseize/Duress + Dark Confidant + Rakdos Charm
Bump is an upgrade over your last 4 slots. Access to Thoughtseize makes the splash doable. Rakdos is versatile: Elves/Empty the Warrens/Robots .. Graveyard and Artifact hate.

White
Boros Charm
SB: Wear/Tear + Oblivion Ring
Boros Charm is a minor upgrade over your weakest 4 slots. Wear/Tear is decent if you run into Leyline. O Ring is versatile.

Green is not splashable. There are no cards that arguably increase your clock or reduce variability.

I have splashed blue for some time and feel it is very strong, even against a bunch of Wastelands. I'm working with the black version now. Boros Charm is not worth the splash.

What is everyone's experience with splashes?

I have no experience with splashes but i think flusterstorm would be a good sideboard card against combo if splashing blue.
White also offers steppe lynx but it needs to play a lot of fetches.... 14 would be optimal.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

I have no experience with splashes but i think flusterstorm would be a good sideboard card against combo if splashing blue.
White also offers steppe lynx but it needs to play a lot of fetches.... 14 would be optimal.

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Flusterstorm is interesting. When would we prefer it over Red Elemental Blast or Mindbreak Trap? Against Combo, I like Trap because it's free (and does not require a free blue.) It also can hit more than instants/sorceries (Craterhoof Behemoth, Charbelcher) and is a hard counter, so they do not get any copies of goblins/tendrils they can pay for. Flusterstorm does make them consider actually paying 2 for a Silence/Duress, that seems narrow.

I've tried Lynx and so did Patrick Sullivan. It is the compliment to Thunderous Wrath. Lynx is the worst card in your deck if not played on turn 1. For a game that goes 6 turns, you will draw into it ~40% of the time.

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Originally Posted by David Kaplan

Quick splash overview for those in Wasteland-lite environments:

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This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

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I absolutely and whole-heartily agree with the above, except maybe the shitting in people's cornflakes. I prefer making their greedy land base pay the price....of progress. Yeah that was weak but whatever, I love burn. There really are all the answers you need for a sideboard in the red scope, you just have to be looking in the right places, I find myself thinking I don't have enough sideboard space because I've endlessly researched red options and I know the majority of them well enough to know that a splash doesn't benefit our sideboard or even main board. I've knocked U/R Delver decks out of contention many times and they seem to always whine during the matches about why someone would not add blue to burn, it is so much better....

</rant>
tl;dr: The guy is right, and I would take some time to think about why he is right, I know only because of the endless amount of hours I've put into this deck. Also, this is the Burn thread, and I hate to put it like this, but it doesn't say the Burn Splash thread, there are other threads for that blasphemy. If you want to lose to wasteland, go for it.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

This is not, has not, and will never be the issue. There are two reasons for "no splash" and literally two reasons only.

1) You don't care about creatures and you don't want to run them. Even the best of creatures like Delver or Confidant or Goyf or... Lynx? Really? Lynx? Anyway, they don't get there. They don't smack your opponent for 5 damage and win the game. They enable any leftover kill spells and turn all of their creatures into wall-like counterspells. Creatures are exceptionally bad and even Goblin Guide is undeniably risky. However, it has haste, so it makes the cut. Confidant does not have haste. Delver will never flip. No one cares about Goyf.

2) Anything you run as "disruption" disrupts your own plan. If you want to beat X, you shouldn't run sick tech in the board. You should run Smash to Smithereens and win faster. You should board in your fourth Sulfuric Vortex and win better. You should board in your Searing Blazes and shit in their cornflakes. Thoughtseize and Futterstorm do not win the game and they do not ensure that your opponent literally cannot win the game like Ensnaring Bridge can. They're awful, they slow you down, and they give your opponent more room to breathe.


If you don't agree with the above, you're wrong and should just make U/R Delver.

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Thanks for the constructive criticism jelly. I agree that creatures are a liability, not a fan of lynx or goyf. Delver has been strong for me, flipping 2/3 of the time with Brainstorm manipulation. He is so strong, I feel he's better than flame rift. in terms of red creatures, most lists run guide and lavamancer at this point, despite their undeniable riskiness.

For sb disruption, most lists have a pyroblast/mindbreak trap slot. In my meta game, thoughtseize is stronger.

These are options I like testing when there aren't too many wastelands around.

So since you're all hating on splashes would any one mind picking apart my white splash? THANKS!

21 lands

4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Marsh Flats (because I don't have any other red fetches at the moment)
3 Plateau
6 Mountains

11 Creatures

4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Hellspark Elemental

8 Sorceries

4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning

20 Instants

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Fire Blast
4 Price of Progress

SB

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Oblivion Ring
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Faerie Macabre

Don't be gentle, I like it rough... on a serious note though, I don't have too much experience with burn, and the event I'm attending will be the first serious Legacy event I've been to, so any advice is appreciated. My reasoning for splashing white started with what I felt to be better sideboard options. Then since I was running white I traded out flame rift for Boros Charm, and Helix for lavaspike, no real good reason for the lavaspike trade, I just don't like the card. As far as sideboarding goes, I'm not too worried about agression since thats what the deck does, I just don't like to be locked out of a game e.g. Iona, Chalice on 1/2, Counter/Top, and to some extent Layline of Sanctity. Rip away.

@xieyun
Please take a look at the primer for this thread. It should give you lots of ideas for buidling this deck. You need to understand the strategy of the deck you are playing. How does it achieve victory? In the case of Burn, you want to deal 20 damage to your opponent as soon as posible. Occasionally, you may need to remove an opposing creature, but the vast majority of your burn spells in most matchups are aimed at your opponent's head. For this reason, Lava Spike is too good not to run four of. It does have drawbacks of being a sorcery that can't target creatures, but three damage for one mana is very efficient and fits into the strategy of the deck. This is also why Flame Rift is better than Lightning Helix for this deck. Most opposing decks cannot deal damage as quickly as Burn. So the lifegain from Helix isn't very helpful and that damage taken from Rift isn't all that harmful. Now Boros Charm is better than Flame Rift, but I don't think that it is enough so to warrent a white splash. Your opponent can Wasteland your Plateaus, not leaving you enough mana to cast all your spells in a timely manner. That's why most Burn players prefer mono-red.

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Originally Posted by Justin

@xieyun
Please take a look at the primer for this thread. It should give you lots of ideas for buidling this deck. You need to understand the strategy of the deck you are playing. How does it achieve victory? In the case of Burn, you want to deal 20 damage to your opponent as soon as posible. Occasionally, you may need to remove an opposing creature, but the vast majority of your burn spells in most matchups are aimed at your opponent's head. For this reason, Lava Spike is too good not to run four of. It does have drawbacks of being a sorcery that can't target creatures, but three damage for one mana is very efficient and fits into the strategy of the deck. This is also why Flame Rift is better than Lightning Helix for this deck. Most opposing decks cannot deal damage as quickly as Burn. So the lifegain from Helix isn't very helpful and that damage taken from Rift isn't all that harmful. Now Boros Charm is better than Flame Rift, but I don't think that it is enough so to warrent a white splash. Your opponent can Wasteland your Plateaus, not leaving you enough mana to cast all your spells in a timely manner. That's why most Burn players prefer mono-red.

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Thankyou for that, your points are very solid ones, I've read the primer and many other articles on burn, but I just wanted to see how it might work with the splash, during testing with mono red, I've lost one too many games with flame rift, or drawing into a lavaspike that I couldn't use in combination with another burn spell to kill a four toughness creature(I understand these grounds are narrow, but that they happened made me think) so I figured I tried something else. Any ways I'm gonna go back to mono red, I'll post a list before long. Thanks again for the advice.

So far the only list I've taken to a tourney (SCG Seattle in April) was a fetchless monored one with 4 Vortex, 4 Flame Rift, and 4 Vexing Devils. I'm doing a little testing here and there but will start doing more when it comes closer to the October Open here. I'm also slowly adding fetchlands to my collection, though with my lack of much budget I'll probably play fetchless again or possibly throw in ~4 fetches and maybe 2 Lavamancers. I'm not sure if that's worth it or not yet - more testing. I am testing a Rw splash-list as well though. In it I do run 4 Boros Charm over Flame Rift, do not run Helix or any other white cards in the main. The main reason is Wear // Tear. I'm not sold on the splash, but I did lose 2 games to Leyline in the Open and it sucks having zero answers to a popular 4-of (in my limited experience, Leylines don't get talked about much because most of the Legacy coverage is of the top tables and Top 8s, and I think more non-elite decks at the mid tables play Leylines). There are other corner cases as well such as hitting Omniscience or Dream Halls in response to Enter the Infinite coming on the stack. In the end my guess is that I'll come to the conclusion of just about every good Burn player out there: mono Red is the place to be. Leylines suck to face but Burn is probably better off just asking: do you have it? Decks that pack Leylines are often decks we can successfully race. I mean do they really want to Mull down to it? If so they might just lose to all of our non-targetting damage (GGs Flame Rift Vortex Devils PoP) before they can draw into their lock or combo anyway. And if we lose 2 games in a long tourney to Leyline or another enchantment, so what? We probably end up losing 2 games to Wasteland if we splash. Boros Charm could save your Vortex in some odd game situation I guess, but in the context of Burn it's just really a worse Flame Rift because it requires the splash and also because it targets. So yeah I think I just talked myself out of white splash while rambling about my testing experience :)
What do ya'll think about running 6 REB/Pyroblast in the 'board? I'm liking #s 5 and 6 better than other options for the moment in testing such as Shusher, Ensnaring Bridge, and Mindbreak Trap. Again, probably wrong, just something I'm testing out as REB is just so crucial in some hard matches.