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because its alot easier to get a storm count of 10 than it is of 20. I've fiddled around with a black version with duress and tendrils and the results showed it was much better. Wasteland hurt a little bit, but overall the black splash was worth it. It still lost to solidarity tho...
Probably beacuse I only had time for 12 playtests (27 was a mistype - I meant 25%, which is still high, of cource).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray D 3
It did seem quite lucky, but ofcource alot of turn 1 minupulation does seem to help.
Overall, I feel adding Muck is probably not worth it, but It does offer some nice possibilities.
If you play a small number of Tendrils, it becomes difficult to find one before you reach 17 spells anyway. If you play a high number of Tendrils, you will find yourself trying to go off with dead cards in hand. Double Tendrils is NOT a good draw. Spending 8 mana to win can be quite difficult...especially when 4 are black.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Also, Force seems better than duress. It acts as a clutch for the unforseen, stops 1st turn lackeys, and the number of counters your opponent is holding is one thing...the number they can play is another altogether (Forcing them pay the mana is important.).
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1127595105
Well, I started the topic on MTGSalvation, it can be found here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=19243
Let's discuss the factors that have made me put the deck aside for the time being:
1) Everyone seems to have slots in their boards dedicated to Solidarity hate, which of course also hits me (at least cards like sirocco are les painful).
2) The vulnerability of the Snap engine
3) Solidarity ;_;
If anyone can figure out a way to work on any/all of these flaws, please let me know.
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130898635
They could print a Hibernation for anti-red. Short of that, I dunno.
Excuse me, I play Soliarity and I was just wondering why anyone would want to play a slower version? A crappier version? An all around suckier version than the original tried and true Solidarity??
Welcome to The Source! Please read the forum rules---Frogboy
Edited By frogboy on 1127779431
Try reading the first post...Quote:
Originally Posted by "Jeska"
The basic reasons would be that it doesn't fizzle anywhere near as much, and it wins turn 3.5 not 4.5 (even that is questionable...Solidarity has been known to stall out untill turn 6-7.).
You might want to try actually TESTING the deck before dissing it, as it's very good and a deck I would choose to play over solidarity. Or at least reading the very first post.:(
After playtesting Spring Tide a good bit for the upcoming GPT, I've come to one of two decisions:
1.) Either I can't read that well
2.) I found a STUPID powerful pseudo-tutor
Since we're going off on our turn, at sorcery speed, it would seem "Ancestral Knowledge" would be a card choice worth consideration:
Ancestral Knowledge
1U
Enchantment
Weatherlight - Rare
Cumulative upkeep: <1>.
When Ancestral Knowledge comes into play, look at the top ten cards of your library, then remove any number of them from the game and put the rest back on top of your library in any order.
If Ancestral Knowledge leaves play, shuffle your library.
In my testing, looking at the top ten cards and having the ability to remove the lands has more or less been GG when cast. I'm pretty sure I don't need to elaborate on the obscene power I've perceived in this card. Now, it's a good possibility I've grossly misunderstood something about this card since I haven't played heavily in a few months, and if I've thought about it all wrong, I'll leave it to Kyrand to mock me whenever possible, both for screwing up this card and nearly top 8'ing with MD Unstable Mutations . :blues:.
I'm not sure this helps very much in any of the problem areas, and it could very well be a "win more" card, but it seems WAY too powerful to dismiss. I have 2 in my build currently, and it more or less ends the game as soon as it hits.
Feel free to correct me if I managed to botch that card at all.
It seems worth consideration, but to me it looks like all this card would do theoretically is improve consistency in situations where you have a decent amount of mana and a draw spell waiting: situations where the deck should already have the game in the bag. The deck is already one of the most consistent in the format as it is. As Ray said, it has other problems that need to be addressed first.
Plus, I don't know what you'd drop to add this card, but there's a good chance it would be something very important. Dropping a vital card for a cool card that doesn't do anything by itself is not something I would do.
I will grant that on it's own, it's not the greatest card. However, You could pull off some pretty heinous plays like:
Turn 3:
Land, Ancestral Knowledge
Brainstorm
Turn 4:
Fail to pay upkeep, shuffle, draw, win
Obviously not a turn 2 play by any stretch of the imagination :)
I just remember us testing the card in Salvagers.dec, and it was more or less Demonic Tutor when combined with cantrips.
I agree, however, that the other problems must be addressed.
I think the most glaring flaw is the Solidarity problem. I REALLY like the proposed white splash, since Chanting/Abeyancing v. Solidarity gives you alot of room to play with. The problem I see is that you're essentially talking turn 4 on an optimal hand, and the goal against solidarity is turn 3
As a (rather horrible) aside, what about siding scrollable land bounce? A well placed Boomerang/Hoodwink sets Solidarity another turn behind you and may provide the extra time needed to go off... Not a earth-shattering idea by any means, but a passing thought.
Meh, I should probably be off testing 37.5 and Blackstill ... if anything pops into mind I'll make it known tonight.
I have a few things to say that I feel warrant the bumpage.
1. I finally got around to recording goldfishing results, and I decided I would refine it to turn 3 on the play, turn 3 on the draw, and turn 4 on the play as they are the truly significant numbers in the matches we need to goldfish. The deck is off to quite the amazing start, so I will list what I have so far:
Turn 3(P): 20/25 80%
Turn 3(D): 22/25 88%
I know it is a small sample size, but it seemed very consistant within itself (In other words, if you took 5 consecutive games from my testing, you would more than likely see exactly 4 successful attempts and one failed.), and 50 games is really nothing to scoff at.
You may notice these numbers are quite different than the old ones, but I attribute this to 4 factors: 1) Ideas Unbound is amazing. 2) I have gotten better with the deck. 3) There were only 3 High Tides maindeck in the old list. 4) As with all statistics, a small margin of error is to be expected.
In order to be safe, I would like to look at this data pessimistically, and assume a 10% margin of error (very unlikely). This leaves us with a 70/78% split, which dare I say is still quite impressive. However, in the interest of fairness let us take into consideration 2 things: 1) I was playing purely for goldfishing purposes, so some of the decisions I made would rarely be repeated in a real game. 2) Fanatic/Bolt/Jitte can screw over the snap engine. Therefore, let us subtract another 15% from both sides and see we are left at a 55/~65% split. Now, let us assume that Goblin's kills 25% of the time on turn 3, 50% of the time on turn 4, and 25% of the time on turn 5, and let us assume that Spring Tide has a 100% chance of killing by turn 4 (obviously not true, but the overcompensation in other values should more than cover it.). That leaves game 1 of the gobbos match approximately 75% in your favor. Pretty nice isn't it, considering how conservative I was in my calculations. With most Goblin players sb'ing Sirocco over more effective hate for you, game 2+3 should still be significantly in your favor. Now, I would like to remind you all of the success solidarity varients have with Landstill, as well as the decline of Solidarity and ask WHY THE HELL IS NO ONE PLAYING THIS?!
2. I may have found a tool that is half way decent in the solidarity mirror that has the added bonus of helping against Aggro Control as well as Control decks that board in hate: That tool is Defense Grid. Tell me what you think. It obviously won't make solidarity favorable, but it is something and it actually can turn aggro control from slightly unfavorable to favorable, which is quite good.
3. The goal against Solidarity is not always or even usually turn 3. You only combo turn 3 if you go first and can or if they stall on 1-2 lands. The alternative is to use your superior draw/search to find you the more powerful tools to counter-balance their utter dominance of the stack, (for example, a protected eot Turnabout).
4. Ancestral Knowledge is kind of meh. You lose card advantage and tempo, thus making it relatively bad against aggro and control as well as any hybrid there of.
5. The white splash weakened the deck to Wasteland, and was in many ways comparable to attempting to stop a bullet with a napkin [glare]
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130883922
Can this deck work well without the snap engine?
In my meta, there is not a single solidarity, a lof Goblins and Landstill and a lot of Burn/sligh. Since there is no Solidarity, noone sideboards against it. Considering this, I think I'm going to play Spring Tide, if the matchup vs Goblins is really that good.(I can't play normal solidarity, as I've yet to see a single Reset in my local Shop)
It can certainly win without drawing Snap quite often, but Snap+Faeries is what makes turn 3's just happen (on 2 lands and through 1-2 counters I might add :D ), and I would not play without them as it often gives you the ability to go off without fear of fizzling when you see an opening. It is a vulnerability the deck has, but its sheer power and the lack of better options makes it a necessary evil in my opinion.
The deck takes a great deal of experience, a good understanding of statistics, and the ability to accurately measure what your opponent is capable of to play correctly. The number of decisions you make will leave you a great deal of room to screw up. However, your metagame is perfect for the deck to dominate, so if you are willing to put in the work, go for it. If you want help, feel free to ask. I had to guide Kryand through several games before he started to get strong results from it [glare]
Edited By Ray D 3 on 1130888359
One of the amazing things about this deck is that it can use the only draw 7 in Legacy. That's right: Dimishing Returns. If you 3x or 4x this card, you will have better consistency and it won't crap out on you.
Where have you been? The deck used to run Returns. Look at the old goldfishing results and the new. See a difference? I also enjoy having a draw engine that doesn't refill my opponent's hand with counters and remove my win conditions.
What was the list you were testing? I tried goldfishing once before but I didn't get such great results.
My list is on the front page.
Like I said, it takes alot of practice to get good results [glare]
Ray what do u think about disrupt and mana short as SB choises
Mana short owns gilded light, abeyance, counterspell, red elemental blast, disk for snap :P, and it makes the high tide match up a lot easier when cast on turn 3 (upkeep)
Disrupts counters in control en high tide match ups, the match ups i fear most, and besides that it cantrips
My SB as i play it now:
1 Stroke of genius
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Brainfreeze
1 Capsize
1 Rebuild
3 Disrupt
4 Mana short
1 Mystical tutor
1 Snap