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Thanks! I haven't put this together yet but I plan to do so soon. With respect to burn, since you have access to white mana maybe CoP:Red?Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
or aegis of honor. I dont usually play white so im not sure what the best SB options are but there are definitely better choice in W than in G/B/R
I think I would've been OK game 2 had I either a) went for the combo a turn sooner, or b) hadn't sided out Tabernacle. That said, I'm not sure how good Tabernacle is in other circumstances. I like that it ties up their mana, but a Pyroclasm would've been just as good in that scenario had I drawn one. CoP: Red is interesting, but with Mana Confluence we're still pinging ourselves for 1 to prevent damage unless we use Gemstone, from which we'll only get a few activations. Could be worth trying, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
I was blowing out all the other decks. Like I said, I should have beat Burn, but those three games were definitely the closest I've had (and my only loss) in the two tournaments I've player in with this deck. I firmly believe it's very well positioned. Pissed at myself for blowing the match against Burn, but what can you do?
well COP only takes colourless to activate once it's out not W, so you only need gemstone/mana confluence once.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
How does the deck fair against other fast combo decks?
Oh, you're absolutely correct. Good call. For some reason I thought it was W to activate. Haven't played they card in about 15 years haha. Definitely worth trying, then.Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
Against fair decks not running Wasteland I find it to be pretty lopsided in our favor. They simply can't interact, since we can just naturally draw our combo pieces. If they are running Wasteland, the 4 maindeck Needles are huge, and they typically can't destroy artifacts game 1.
Edit misread your post. I have only played against Elves as far as fast combo decks are concerned, and it's heavily in our favor, especially post board with all our sweepers.
Thanks! I'd say the weakness of the deck will be decks that can go off T1-T2 as they'll be slightly faster. Have you played against Sneak and Show at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
I have not, and I'm assuming it would be a tough match. There was a Belcher player there last night, but I avoided him. In those matchups, our discard effects are huge, and obviously mainboard REB helps against blue combo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
When I look at TC decks it seems that goyf has disappeared as a consequence submerge doesn't see so much play in side right now.
The question is can we play a "normal" manabase with taiga/bayou and fetch ?
It is a question of meta I think but might be a good one is some life point from mana confluence still worth being submerge proof ?
Also the weakness of the deck are ANT and miracle ; the miralce matchup is not so easy I often loose when I play against competent pilot.
Library is the key card but they play wear/tear council's judgement and ee after side ; also counterlock is hard.
I have been considering Erebos, God of the Dead or skeletal scring maybe ? has a 5-6 library undestructible in side though don't know if the casting cost is too excessive. Long time ago I played a couple
of slaughter games but I don't think they are good enough. What's the people experience with miracle ?
I don't think we can make the ANT matchup much better (it is someting like 40-60), without changing others matchups.
I don't think the tabernacle belongs in the maindeck (meta concern)
TLK, that's an awesome list. Any suggestions for Tabernacle replacements?
Also, I've been running 1 Loam in the SB for Wasteland decks, especially because Lands is gaining traction. Thoughts?
adrieng, I like Abrupt decay as a 3-of in the side vs Counter-top. Vs ANT, just rely on your blast, maybe a swan song in the board. :/
Why would you put in Erebos? How does that help against ANT or Miracles?
take away miracles SDT and they are pretty worthless. Pithing needle obviously hits it but so does a card like damping matrix. matrix des turn off our maps and hexmage but does hit a lot of the meta too. null rod is option #2.Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
Yeah I know how it works in theory, but in practice they have a lot of answer. They can have jace+CB if you named top and just lock you.Quote:
take away miracles SDT and they are pretty worthless. Pithing needle obviously hits it but so does a card like damping matrix. matrix des turn off our maps and hexmage but does hit a lot of the meta too. null rod is option #2.
They still have acces to card to destroy artifact/echantment and can kill your library/needle after side. Drawing is the key in this matchup,
I have considered maybe deep analysis as a draw four where they need to counter two time.
Dark confidant might be an other alternative but not sure he is very good with all these red decks right now or choke ?.
I have reclamation sage after side to blow the CB. I don't have the space for decay and it doesn't answer blood moon against others deck unlike ratchet bomb
i don't think damping matrix or null rod is correct for the deck. ethersworn canonist should really be considered against Storm, Omni, and even elves. When combined with the main deck discard not only does it slow them down but also acts as a win con. If colored mana is an issue Consider tranisphere. Although transferee costs 3, discard spells can often get you to turn three. Once you run out of discard they are able to build their hand back fairly quickly. trinisphere not only slows down the rebuild of their hand but also how they win. It servers similar purposes in omni and elves as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Take note that canonist is unlikely to affect us in anyway but trinisphere typically does because we have lots of 1 CMC spells.
I am thinking about playing this deck tomorrow for the first time, and I may just run a more normal Jund manabase. I agree that submerges aren't that common right now. Fetchland thinning will slightly increase chance of drawing combo pieces too I guessQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
i've never really found that the damage mana confluence deals is a hinderance. compared to how much life you would lose on average to multiple fetchlands its probably about even. Especially when you have urborg out its fine. In rare situations you'll draw 3 mana confluences and need the mana and bolting yourself sucks but such is life... you could just as likely be screwed on the colored mana you need and instead of having the option to bolt yourself you just can't cast anything...Quote:
Originally Posted by hovercraft
Thanks. I don't really think there's a replacement for Tabernacle, as it's a land you can tutor for using Map/Scrying/Rotation and can offer up big blowouts. I wouldn't try to replace it, but rather run another Duress or something useful against poor matchups (fast combo).Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianPossum
Loam as a 1-of in the board is probably fine, as most decks won't be bringing in graveyard hate against us after game 1.
I'll probably keep a couple of confluences or gemstone mines, just not as many.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Anyone build this on MTGO? Wondering how expensive it is. Guessing Depths would be the biggest investment
The first list in the original post wouldn't be too bad to build, the most expensive pieces are the following cards assuming city of brass over mana confluence;Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
dark depths ~30
exploration ~20
maze of ith ~15
The second list will be significantly more expensive due to the cost of rishadan port ($140 on mtgotraders! So glad I have my playset for lands/d&t from way back). I really need to put these together since I just need silly stuff like extra sylvan libraries to finish both of the sample decklists.
I'd be building the list that's quoted at the top of this page, so I wouldn't even need Exploration. Great, doesn't seen too bad. I'll probably build it.
total cost of adring's list is ~165. i've been wanting to buy it but can't really justify the cost right now. I'm in a very strange situation... i have a ton... of cards in paper, but can't ever find time to get to a store to play now that I'm in law school. Because I'm now a student i have $0 to spend on mtgo cards even though i would probably play more of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
Oh wow, even less than I expected. Depths is like $30, so that's $120 right there. I'm guessing everything else is incredibly cheap.