[Deck] Zilla Stompy 2k6 - RG Beats for the Modern Meta

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Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living

Ok mister Legacy Adept. Your going to burn all my men down then drop Iwamori and bolt my KJ? Ill have two copies of warcheif/ringleader/matron by next turn for sure. Infact KJ is probably a card I would fetch against this deck whether or not I know your playing Iwamori. His card advantages are probably the only thing that would grab you the game.

And fanatic will never block your 5/5 I suppose? Sure you get your trample damage. Congratulations 5 ass. But hey its not like they play 2 power creatures or gempalms right? Me? Ill take 4 life and stay alive a turn longer to win the game.

If this deck has such a good game against goblins why does it have to run this COCK block jank? If your bad matches are burn and AS play friggen Baloth. I dont understand why everyone is so thickheaded about that.

Maybe you could test him. Its pretty easy, just open the deck editor.

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Dont start the "if you do this ill just do this and win gg noob" arguements. They are not good examples of how games really play out.

I would not fetch Kiki-Jiki against this deck. I would go for Warchief. Tempo is super important in this matchup. Expensive, vulnerable creatures that you won't be able to play anytime soon, unless they drop an Iwamori, are not good.

Iwamori is far and away better than Baloth. The fact that he is bigger means your opponent has to invest more resources into dealing with him. Trample is so damn good vs stupid weenies decks. Baloths life gain is hardly a bonus. Goblins can deal with the extra 4 life fairly easily.

We do not need to test Baloth because he is strictly inferior to Iwamori in this deck. Iwamori is not jank, he is a house. This deck has a good game against Goblins because it runs beats like Iwamori.

This is going to sound elitist...but whatever.

If you are dumb enough to pass up fetching a Warchief, Ringleader, Piledriver, Pyromancer, or Gempalm for some "cool trick" shit like a KJ and follow that play by hoping they use their Iwamori.... Quit magic.

KJ is a house against any deck he touches the field against if and only if he has targets. Against this deck you will be forced to make many trades, and make them early, so that you are spending 5 mana or a vial on 5 to cast a Goblin Chariot. GG.


Oh, and yes, this is based on testing.


Also: If a bad matchup is Burn, the Baloths you are advocating so immensely can be put into the sideboard specifically for that matchup. But, again, that matchup is a very miniscule portion of the percieved metagame. If you see a lot of burn, Board the 'loth... But don't weaken your strong matchups in Gro/Goblins by maindecking your burn hate.....Burn isn't even that popular of a deck....

Guys, why are you really even discussing this?? Probably the only time that this would be a problem is if your opponent has a Vial set at 3 or 4 and that happens how many times when your pumping out Iwamori out on turn 2 and 3?

Now don't get me wrong here 'Zilla, I do like the deck. I just like playing Survival variants better.

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Originally Posted by Watcher487

Now don't get me wrong here 'Zilla, I do like the deck. I just like playing Survival variants better.

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I can dig it. In a lot of ways it's a metagame call. Zompy's biggest advantage over Survival is its overwhelmingly positive Goblins matchup. If Goblins isn't a major metagame concern, then RGSA may be a better choice in your area.

I'd definately go with two Mirri, two Burning Tree Shaman and Iwamori over Rumbling Slum. Iwamori is a total house. Slum gets chump blocked all day long but I guess Rancor overcomes that. I still think Iwamori is much better than slum most of the time.

Baloth just doesn't cut it in this deck. He's amazing in Survival decks but this is not that.

Mirri is tech against goblins and any green aggro deck. First strike + vigilance + forest-walk + equipment is just fine.

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Originally Posted by Vardaman

Mirri is tech against goblins and any green aggro deck. First strike + vigilance + forest-walk + equipment is just fine.

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BTS is strictly superior to Mirri in the combo, control, and Burn matchups, which are difficult matchups already. Goblins, on the other hand, is already extremely favorable. Mirri is significantly easier to remove with a Gempalm than BTS is as well. The only place where Mirri is significantly advantageous is against Silver Knight, and that's assuming it's not a deck like BDW that's packing Bolts. In short, we're discussing a lot of changes to improve the Angel Stompy matchup without giving due consideration to the deck's other problem matchups.

I'll give Mirri some testing, but I do have some serious doubts about changes to the deck which address only one matchup at the expense of several others.

OK, I don't know exactly if a few posts were directed at me, but I'd like to make some things clear.

First, read my posts:

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I'm also heavily leaning towards running Iwamori, so we're on the same page here. I just want to make sure it doesn't make a good matchup worse.

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You have no reason to be offensive and post some fucking elitist bullshit here. I'm only voicing some concerns and those concerns are justified.


Second, in the (very limited) testing, Goblin has won a few games where KJ was involved, albeit it's still overwhelmingly favorable for Zilla Stompy. For emphasis, read this part once more, so there are no misunderstandings.

While it is only marginal, Iwamori provides another way besides Lackey and Vial to get KJ into play. I also didn't need to tutor up KJ everytime, there are instances where you ringlead into one or simply hold one already.
I'm not that dumb that I blindly tutor into KJ everytime. Every competent Goblin player will develop his board position first. You have to take into account that sometimes you have a "spare" Matron because you're already holding Warchief, Gempalm or any important Goblin. Or you have a second Matron in hand, which also happened.

Also, to directly burn out KJ after dropping Iwamori, you need to have 2GGR or 3GGR on the table. Barring a god-draw, that won't happen before turn 4.
In the other case where you preemptively burn out the other Goblins in anticipation of KJ, that still takes time and mana and thus gives the Goblin player more time. Often, it is not easy to take out every single Goblin, because you only have 8 direct damage spells.

The few wins for Goblins were when Iwamori was dropped on turn 4 or later with no immediate burn. In that case, that gave me 3 disruption-free turns (opponents turn, my turn, opponents turn) with KJ and turned an otherwise unwinnable game around.

However, there were also many games where Iwamori was dropped on turn 4-6 and I didn't have KJ or the luxury of searching for it.


To sum this up: Iwamori is good enough to run even if it's slightly worse than Slum in the Goblin match-up. Just be careful as a Zilla Stompy player.

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Originally Posted by Bongo

OK, I don't know exactly if a few posts were directed at me, but I'd like to make some things clear...

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Relax. I think most were in reference to this post, which was in itself rather combative.

In any case, we essentially agree. Iwamori can very occasionally be a liability, but you have the ability to play carefully against Goblins; roughly half the time (be it Ringleader, or Matron), you will know they've got it and be able to play accordingly. Overall, it doesn't appear to be impacting the Goblins matchup in any significant way, aside from being as good as or better than Slum in the instances where they don't have Jeek.

I've been playing this deck for a while online, and I have to say I like Iwamori much better, though, his drawback did drop a Kokusho from a janky Rock build. Despite that, I still won due to Iwamori being a 5/5 trampler, which forced my opponent to block with the Kokusho to keep from dying to the trample damage.

Unfortunately, I haven't run into any Goblin builds online, so I can't confirm if Iwamori makes this matchup any worse, but I can't imagine it doing so, and despite Rumbling Slum's extra point of damage each turn, I think Iwamori works out much better with saving your Rancors for your other creatures. 3/1 trampling Llanowar Elf ftw!

This past sunday zilla stompy beat me 2wice. I got paired down against the guy playing it then faced him again in the top 4. I lost both games mostly thanks to BTS. I was playing Salvager Game. BTS really hurts the bomberman.

Just a quick question, why play this deck instead of play Angel Stompy? This is an honest question, and I'm sure there are at least a couple answers. Clearly both this and AS rock against gobbo, are good against thresh, and are weak to combo such as solidarity/rift, but this deck has an unfavorable matchup against AS itself... Granted, the odds of these decks facing each other in the current meta are pretty slim, just wondering if/what are the matches where this deck outshines AS?

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Originally Posted by tivadar

Just a quick question, why play this deck instead of play Angel Stompy? This is an honest question, and I'm sure there are at least a couple answers. Clearly both this and AS rock against gobbo, are good against thresh, and are weak to combo such as solidarity/rift, but this deck has an unfavorable matchup against AS itself... Granted, the odds of these decks facing each other in the current meta are pretty slim, just wondering if/what are the matches where this deck outshines AS?

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This is actually a very astute question, and it's not easy to answer. In my experience, while both AS and Zompy have a strong game against Goblins, Zompy's is the stronger of the two. This is due partially to the fact that it has more (read: faster) spot removal, but also that most of its creatures, even when unequipped, force 2 or 3-for-1 trades with Goblins, where many of Angel Stompy's do not. Furthermore, Zompy's manabase is less vulnerable to disruption, and is more stable overall.

With that said, I've been working on AS a bit lately, working to stabilize the manabase without sacrificing speed, and that's coming along well, so it's hard to say which deck has the bigger advantage against Goblins.

Next, while both Zompy and AS have been positive against Thresh in my testing, Zompy has tended to be more positive, again because its creatures, even unequipped can live through combat with Thresh's creatures, where many of AS's cannot. Then again, StP and Parallax Wave are certainly better removal options in this matchup, so it's sort of a tossup. Zompy has better sideboard options against Thresh with Pillar to back up Crypt, but in the end, this, too, may not be too relevant.

This is a relevant point against combo as well: Zompy has more faster options against combo, particularly REB and Pillar. That said, that's another issue I've been exploring with Angel Stompy's sideboard, so it's possible that this point will also become moot.

Lastly, and probably the most relevant answer I can provide: Zompy's fundamental turn is somewhere around a half to a full turn faster than Angel Stompy's. This makes it stronger in general against combo and control than Angel Stompy, but not by a lot. What Angel Stompy loses in speed, it gains in versatility and an ability to beat random aggro more consistently. Bombs like Angel, SoFI, and Parallax Wave slow the deck down a bit, but give it an overwhelming advantage in aggro matchups.

In the end, I think it's going to come down to a metagame call. In a purely aggro metagame, or one comprised very largely of red cards, or of WW/BDW style decks, I wouldn't hesitate to play Angel Stompy over Zilla Stompy. In a metagame without much Burn, WW/BDW, but a a lot of Goblins and a more general mix of archetypes, I might choose to go with Zompy.

I'll have to say that AS's matchup against gobbo is so good, that I think it's a moot point of which deck to play, a win is a win... Also, though this deck pulls more cards from the gobbo player, AS has the pro-red creatures, and also tivadar's crusade. The argument above can also be used for the UGr thresh decks out there.

Against UGw decks though, their removal works equally well against both decks. Perhaps the extra speed and the ability of a single creature to face down the werebear or goose is what pushes this deck above gro in that matchup. I'm willing to admit that if UGw Thresh is played a lot in your environ, this deck may be the way to go.

As for the combo matchup, I think it's fairly safe to say both are rather bad. I'm tempted to say horrendous, but that may be overstating things. This deck can at least board REB in, and hope for the quick kill. AS tends to play true believer (somewhat ineffective) or rule of law (much more efficient, but doesn't kill your opponent). I think it's safe to say if combo is big in your environment, neither of these decks should be played.

One thing I have noticed, however, is that the creature/boost ratio seems a bit low. Perhaps this is compensated by the fact that individual threats are harder to remove, but I'm not entirely convinced of this. For example, the mainpage list has 4 Rancor + 4 Jitte = 8 boosts, and runs 16 threats + ~8 mana souce/threats. Typically angel stompy runs a 4/1 ratio. Does this deck get into many situations where it has boosts but no creatures? I know it's been talked about a bit, but what sort of testing has been done? Especially once you get to talking about Gro, which can counter/remove your creatures and basically ignore your boosts.

Does 4 copies of anarchy in the board solve the Angel Stompy matchup if I'm willing to devote that much space? By solve, I mean: go 50/50. Angel Stompy recently won a tournament on magic-league.com, and people will probably start playing it. I would rather not give up Zompy, but if it's a hopeless cause, I will.

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Originally Posted by Vimes

Does 4 copies of anarchy in the board solve the Angel Stompy matchup if I'm willing to devote that much space? By solve, I mean: go 50/50. Angel Stompy recently won a tournament on magic-league.com, and people will probably start playing it. I would rather not give up Zompy, but if it's a hopeless cause, I will.

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As an AS Player, I'm going to say no. Anarchy slows you down a lot, though it will help against the silver knights. The fact is though, that if we get a knight out, we don't need another creature against you:

4 Llanowar Elves - First Strike
4 Elvish Spirit Guide - First Strike
4 Kird Ape - Pro Red
4 Burning-Tree Shaman - Pro Red
4 Troll Ascetic - First Strike
4 Rumbling Slum - Pro Red

All your removal is red, so with 1 knight out, you can't get counters on your jitte unless you play rancor as well on the creature, and then we can typically wait for you to cast rancor and swords the creature. Anarchy is a 1 for 1 trade that makes you devote 4 mana, and just isn't worth it.

I know I've ran into someone boarding anarchy in a gobbo deck. He played 2 one game and it didn't hurt at all. I splash blue, so Bleb could take care of it. Honestly, the card we're most scared of is Iwamori, as it can power through a knight and get counters on that jitte...

I do play Iwamori over Rumbling Slum. I forget why I made that decision, but it's worked out pretty well. Does it make a serious difference against mono white Angel Stompy? The Angel Stompy IS going to be mono white. A mono white AS build won a trial, so that's what will be played on www.magic-league.com.

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Originally Posted by tivadar

One thing I have noticed, however, is that the creature/boost ratio seems a bit low. Perhaps this is compensated by the fact that individual threats are harder to remove, but I'm not entirely convinced of this. For example, the mainpage list has 4 Rancor + 4 Jitte = 8 boosts, and runs 16 threats + ~8 mana souce/threats. Typically angel stompy runs a 4/1 ratio. Does this deck get into many situations where it has boosts but no creatures? I know it's been talked about a bit, but what sort of testing has been done? Especially once you get to talking about Gro, which can counter/remove your creatures and basically ignore your boosts.

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It is wrong not to count the 4 Elves and the 4 ESG's as potential targets for equipping. It happens all the time. Even a Llanowar Elf is a serious threat when it's got a Jitte attached. That makes 24 equip targets, not 16. That's a 3 to 1 ratio. Angel Stompy runs ~22 equip targets, if you're extremely generous and count Mother of Runes as something you'd want to be equipping. It runs 6-7 equipment. The ratio is almost identical.

Furthermore, you ignore the extremely relevant point that Jitte is legendary. If you're holding multiples, it's going to be dead whether or not you have something to equip it to. For all intents and purposes, Zilla Stompy is running 5 creature enhancers - 4 Rancors and 1 Jitte. The extra Jittes are simply backups in case of removal.

Stepping back from it, however, there's not any meaningful point to this comparison between the two decks. They've both been tested very thoroughly, and they both are pretty close to optimal for the current environment (although Angel Stompy is changing a bit in the near future). They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Zilla Stompy is a bit more consistent, and it's a bit faster. It's less explosive in the late game and doesn't as thoroughly crush other aggro as Angel Stompy does, however. Those are the major differences. In the end, it's going to be a metagame call.

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Does 4 copies of anarchy in the board solve the Angel Stompy matchup if I'm willing to devote that much space? By solve, I mean: go 50/50.

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Probably not. I tested 3 copies of Anarchy in the board and it was still abysmall. That said, it depends on a few things:

1) Is the Angel Stompy player running Parallax Wave like they should be? If so, Anarchy loses a lot of its effectiveness.

2) The inclusion of Iwamori over Slum will make a difference in your favor, but it may not be enough.

3) If you run Call of the Herd over BTS, and Iwamori over Slum, and Anarchy in the board, this might become a fairly even matchup. That'd be the route I'd try in testing if Angel Stompy was a major concern.

Sounds like a plan to me. I've always loved Call of the Herd. Thanks for your help.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

It is wrong not to count the 4 Elves and the 4 ESG's as potential targets for equipping. It happens all the time. Even a Llanowar Elf is a serious threat when it's got a Jitte attached. That makes 24 equip targets, not 16. That's a 3 to 1 ratio. Angel Stompy runs ~22 equip targets, if you're extremely generous and count Mother of Runes as something you'd want to be equipping. It runs 6-7 equipment. The ratio is almost identical.

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You've got a point, though if you count elves then not counting mothers doesn't make sense, it's really being fair between the two builds. 3:1 isn't terrible I suppose, but against a deck with strong removal my thought is you'll still run into situations where you have boosts but no creatures. For this, Jitte really does count as a 4 of. I understand what you're saying of "you can't have more than one in play", but then the others in your hand are dead. Though, in all fairness, under the current meta, you don't have a problem. If control gets big again, this deck loses, a lot. I'm curious what the landstill matchup is, as I don't think this deck can race its wraths.

The only reason I bring this up is because I know landstill was a big problem for AS in the past, and these decks run very similar strategies.

The original Zilla Stompy was built to smash Landstill. Each threat in that deck, and this deck aslo, must be answered or the Landstill player loses. You do not race Wrath with this deck; they have to decide whether they need to Wrath your board of Elf and Troll, or Elf and BTS, or a singular BTS, Troll, or Iwamori. Troll Ascetic can only be answered by Wrath and Akroma's Vengence (is that even run? If it is, it is far, far too slow) (or Moat, I suppose. Now that is bad news), and a Troll wearing Rancor or Jitte is going to end the game in a hurry.

Troll's untargetability and regeneration make him insanely good in this matchup, and he comes down on turn two. You can play the mind game and lead with BTS or Iwamori/Slum, or whatever you need to do. I have not tested 2k6 vs Landstill, but it does what the original does and should play close to the same way.