Future of MTG

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Originally Posted by bruizar

It's only solved if you have the money to buy the optimal deck. That's the whole point of the format! It used to be very difficult to acquire cards because ABU/ANAQLG weren't widely available! You would have to play with what you have! That's why old school is a format of those who love the old feel of Magic, not of spikes and netdeckers. Basically, everyone is playing suboptimal decks. Old school players aren't all super wealthy lawyers and technocrats.

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I think you are expanding the arguments by calling it a literal pay-to-win format in addition to being a solved one. Neither is really attractive and if it's for pure nostalgia, i'd rather play with Championship decks on my end.

I am also not sure if people dropping ~1400$ on single moxen, without cutting back in other aspects of their lives, qualify as average joe in terms of financial aspects. Maybe that's just a certain view i gained by seeing a lot of poverty every day on my way to work. I see us folks able to spend that much money on cardboard in addition to car, apartment, time with friends, family, partners, vacation, etc as absolutely privileged

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Originally Posted by Bithlord

I think what he means is "old school is not about playing a good format, it's about bragging about the rare and expensive cards you have". Not saying I agree with that [I have no idea how fun / not fun the format is], but that's what he's saying.

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As an avid OS player, the brags are in the deck you shuffle up. Netdecking OS is prohibitively expensive, even for a hobbyist standard on the MTG scale. The card pool is small, the strategies are solved. But people flock to the format because of the nostalgia, because it carries a completely different atmosphere than all other formats; no matter what your budget is, you're in the gang because you share a real passion for the old cardboard with others around you. Winning is fine and competitiveness is a healthy barometer of any format, but the real difference comes down to losing. In all other formats you go find your buddies and bitch about bad beats. You lose in OS, you are with your buddies already and you grab a beer for the next round. Elitist behavior is a myth. Sure, there is prestige in owning 1,000$/€+ singles and playing with them. The drive is doing what you always wanted when you were a kid, and doing that with a group of intelligent and very like minded people sets the format miles apart from anything else.

You clarified the "bragging" format assumption right. It sure feels that way outside looking in. My point is that the comradery is what makes it a good format. Look at every other tournament you've been too; there's cliques of friends scattered about, almost every opponent is unknown, people sometimes lie cheat or complain. In OS, everyone is a friend and they all get together to organize a tournament together. There's a break for lunch. Often a creative side event for those who didn't top8. There's adult beverages. Its a kitchen table atmosphere.

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I don't think lauding a format for being casual really helps you make a point on a forum for a competitive format.

Maaaaybe I was still on topic without saying it: the future of MTG is less about tournament structure and circuits but more about groups of people who come together to support it.

There will be a time in the future where the economy can't support this game. It will die. And the only thing (regarding MTG) left will be any people geographically close enough to have leisure time and means to game together.

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Old School is just so boring from a gameplay perspective. I think that's why I don't like it

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Originally Posted by Fox

I don't think lauding a format for being casual really helps you make a point on a forum for a competitive format.

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https://morbotron.com/video/S04E11/9...j9q6DJYpQ=.gif

Legacy can only barely be called a competitive format at this point.

Did WOTC just stop doing Grand Prix coverage and not announce anything about it? Football seasons over thought I would tune into see what was up with Modern after the Ironworks ban. No coverage of GP Toronto not really finding any info about it except that they are going to have coverage for the Mythic Championship at Magic Fest Cleveland. God who the fuck is in charge of naming shit? Why is it in fucking Cleveland? I guess "Play the Game see the World" is officially a relic of a bygone era.

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Originally Posted by JBlaze

Did WOTC just stop doing Grand Prix coverage and not announce anything about it? Football seasons over thought I would tune into see what was up with Modern after the Ironworks ban. No coverage of GP Toronto not really finding any info about it except that they are going to have coverage for the Mythic Championship at Magic Fest Cleveland. God who the fuck is in charge of naming shit? Why is it in fucking Cleveland? I guess "Play the Game see the World" is officially a relic of a bygone era.

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I don't know if they made an official announcement but they responded to someone on twitter, apparently it's on CFB if they want to do coverage or not. In tyool 2019 you can generally just assume that if it's the worst possible decision it's probably the decision that WOTC made.

https://twitter.com/MagicEsports/sta...21449549586432

Imagine having a goose that shits out golden eggs and actively going: "bad goose, you shouldn't be shitting out these eggs made of 24 karat gold! Whatever will I do with these eggs???" Fear not though, that is just the WOTC way.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This logic was debuked at least 4 times in the last 5 months. No need to repeat the same old nonsense claiming that everyone would just run 12+ Duals and Blood Moon isnt a card at all.

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Can you link me to the debunking? Genuinely curious. I think what I said is a good assumption to make. I suppose we would never truly know unless it was implemented.

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Originally Posted by jandax

Maaaaybe I was still on topic without saying it: the future of MTG is less about tournament structure and circuits but more about groups of people who come together to support it.

There will be a time in the future where the economy can't support this game. It will die. And the only thing (regarding MTG) left will be any people geographically close enough to have leisure time and means to game together.

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I agree with you, jandax. The most predominant form of Magic is kitchen table Magic, and it's been that way for ages. EDH/Commander has a massive following. Magic is large enough, old enough, and complex enough to birth endless variations. All it takes is a critical number of people to agree that a certain format is fun for it to be a thing, and more can join in. Pauper has grown. The Internet has helped Old School thrive, and it could do the same for formats yet to be designed. I have a friend who designs versions of the Battle Box format, and I based my own box on what I liked from that gameplay. I bring my box to Legacy events and jam games before and after, and I have yet to find someone who didn't enjoy the experience. I was commissioned to build a box by a former playtesting partner, and we play every time we get together. He loves having a way to connect to the game even though he's a father now and hasn't otherwise engaged with Magic in half a decade. And, yes, one day WOTC will shut down or be carved up and sold, and there will be no more new cards produced by WOTC. But I definitely believe the game will go on. It's too important to too many people to actually die.

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Originally Posted by Purple Blood

Can you link me to the debunking? Genuinely curious. I think what I said is a good assumption to make. I suppose we would never truly know unless it was implemented.

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Does a picture of Blood Moon, Wasteland, B2B, Life from the Loam or PoP suit or do you insist i dig through this thread for the several discussions on this topic? There are dozens of cards punishing greedy manabases to the point i consider it at least evidence that 12+ duals is an unlikely successful standard for such a format. Ergo the claim that prices would double/triple is also no real point of argument because it roots on the previous bold metagame assumption which is unlikely to happen compared to decks cutting down to 2 or 2.5 colors instead. For me it's like reading the anti-ban arguments in regards to DRS, claiming reanimator would take over the format, ignoring any possible metagame reaction to losing the maindeckable yardhate.

If you cut fetches you push up the amount of Duals needed to play, put pressure on people to gain more lands that they may be unable to afford and push others from the format.

It's ok though, it's not like duals coat as much as a decent used car.

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Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit

The history of all hitherto existing formats is the history of metagame struggles
-Marol Marx

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No wait, I thought of a better one:
"We have planned the next five sets, a five set plan." Chairman Maro

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

If you cut fetches you push up the amount of Duals needed to play, put pressure on people to gain more lands that they may be unable to afford and push others from the format.

It's ok though, it's not like duals coat as much as a decent used car.

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incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.

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This.

It baffles be that people think they can just keep playing their 3 to 3.5 color decks just by raising the dual count, not even remotely considering how the lack of shuffle effects after each cantrip and non-basic land hate in general would fuck these greedy manabases over.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Does a picture of Blood Moon, Wasteland, B2B, Life from the Loam or PoP suit or do you insist i dig through this thread for the several discussions on this topic? There are dozens of cards punishing greedy manabases to the point i consider it at least evidence that 12+ duals is an unlikely successful standard for such a format. Ergo the claim that prices would double/triple is also no real point of argument because it roots on the previous bold metagame assumption which is unlikely to happen compared to decks cutting down to 2 or 2.5 colors instead. For me it's like reading the anti-ban arguments in regards to DRS, claiming reanimator would take over the format, ignoring any possible metagame reaction to losing the maindeckable yardhate.

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So in other words, its just your opinion. Mana bases are already greedy as fuck. What would happen, in my opinion, is less decks would splash for a third color. Miracles would be UW but it would also play 4 Tundra instead of 2. It would probably also play some number of Hallowed Fountain. But who knows if the deck even functions without shuffles from fetches - it may have to start running shitty cards like Evolving Wilds or Ash Barrens just to get shuffles for Brainstorm.

True three color decks would also still exist. Grixis would still be a deck. It will also have to run 4 Volcanics and 4 Underground Seas. It may even have to run Badlands.

D&T and Lands would get a huge boost with people not being able to fetch basics. Maybe you can argue those type of decks would become so dominant three color decks would die off completely. But I doubt it.

In the end, duals would spike crazy even if three color decks get pushed out. There would be increased demand and more of them would be needed. Even 2 color decks would need a full playset of duals. Not many run that right now. Deck costs would double at least.

I typed a long post; but the most interesting point is that Mtg will continue becoming decentralized; it's already happened a ton.

The format is healthy =>
- 6+ months in and it's not solved and the big decks seem viable. It looks to me largely the same diversity/deck archs as there were 6+ years ago (just after DRS entered the format.)
- prices are sustained/increasing (at larger than inflation rates) => market demand for the format
- LGS still seem to have people going regularly trying things out. In our case, our LGS double the number of locals (to 2 a week) *successfully* a few years back. You can still go either of those days and reliably fire off the tournament with fresh faces and grizzeled veterans
- MTGO grinders still exist and grind all the time
- people are actively chatting about stuff*

*But, it's already been largely decentralized:
- everyone sprouted discord channels for their decks; meaning forums like this are no longer a hub except for old crumudgins
- SCG has lost significant market share, ability to produce content that people care about, ability to perform expensive tournament circuits etc.
- streamers and youtube channels sprouted for individuals who pilot the decks frequently/successfully
- LGS stores created their own invitationals and whatnot, rather than having to rent out giant centers for the tournaments

The doomsayers are as wrong as they always have been and haven't made a successful prediction yet. Duals never crashed. non-blue still exists. 3CMC is played as much as it ever was (SCM, lily, KComm, moon/b2b/choke, TNN, etc.) Chalice didn't take over. Combo didn't take over. Control didn't take over.

When I show up in wintertime to a LGS on a Thursday and there's still a dozen people playing legacy; that's *better* than it was 7 years ago IME. That's better than it was 4 years ago. You can keep trying to ban cards that people like, you can keep telling everyone that the house is burning down; but according to the doomsayers it's been "burning" for 7 years and has only become (albeit mildly) more successful.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

incorrect, Yoiu won't be able to play 3 and 4 color decks solely based on duals. Better toplay 2 color decks and play shock duals / fastland in addition to 4 og duals.

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Sure, and the people who have two of a dual for their deck, they do what? Sit on their hands? Right now you can get away with playing fewer duals and more fetches. Some decks take this to an extreme playing very few.

Here, let's make this simple. Your playing RUG. Now you suddenly need Shocks and two new Duals. Sucks to be you. Your playing UW... That's two new Tundra for you. Your playing some silly Phoenix deck, cough up mate.

Even if you drop colours, how many people own 4 duals? I know a lot do, but not newer players, not those who sold what they weren't using. You just shit on them and tell them to deal.

Ban fetches, you push up the price and watch people leave. As someone who plays decks more or less built around Wasteland, sure, whatever. I can live with that. But that's not fair for everyone else. Because as demand goes up for those needed one or two more duals, the price would sky-rocket and leave us with a lot of people priced out.

If you really think banning fetches would make this format more accessible and cheaper your out of your mind. I'm not arguing against if it would make game play better, it very well might, but you can have stunning game play with only 3 players and well, jokes on you.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This.

It baffles be that people think they can just keep playing their 3 to 3.5 color decks just by raising the dual count, not even remotely considering how the lack of shuffle effects after each cantrip and non-basic land hate in general would fuck these greedy manabases over.

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Wasteland would fuck the mana bases, not the lack of shuffling. Jund does fine in Modern, as does Grixis (when it was a thing) just to name two.

You can play more off the wall lands with your duals and get a mana base going. Checklands, Fastlands, maybe a filter or two. But these are all secondary to the main puppies, the totally painless (Aside from you wallet) duals. So what do you look at first when building? Well.

I mean the fucked up mana bases you thinking about do exist in Modern. Normally Fastlands. I don't see how people would have issues playing their 3 colour decks but for the lack of funds.

Lem, flatly. You are wrong.

with fetchlands, duals are much more important because you have certainty that you will hit that land. Without fetchlands, duals will not be as important because the odds that you are drawing into them are much much lower. It's more important to have a decent complete mana base than to have 2 extra duals, especially when you can't fetch for them every single opening turn. In other words, opening with a dual is easy when you're running 10 fetchlands, not so easy with only 2-4 duals. Therefore, just run shocks, fastlands and perhaps even painlands if you want to splash into some eldrazi stuff.

More shocklands means more burn and death's shadow, means less thoughtseize, means more combo and that means more chalice of the void.