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Remember that Ashiok can be used targeting self = Veil of Summer will not prevent yard exile. Has text vs cards like Goblin Engineer, NO/GSZ, KotR, Gamble/Crop Rot, Infernal Tutor, Firemind's Firesight/Eladmri's Call, SFM/Recruiter. Most importantly, don't ever cut this card/fail to SB in vs Snapcaster value pile.
Make sure opponents don't forget to follow the rule this PW introduces in paper, or you will also get a GRV.
I like that tech. I like how the Entomb package and Thought Scour let you play a grindier game and be less all-in on Buried Alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
The 1-of Royal Scions looks strong, with all abilities relevant.
Is Bloodghast any good though? I find it underwhelming in other decks. Is there any better recursive target?
I think Gamble could be interesting, but I don't like Entomb over BA. If you're doing Entomb there is a better deck. The reason Phoenix is good is because you can BA and have 3 of them. Alone, a 3/2 flyer that takes effort is just a worse Delver. As far as Bloodghast goes I wouldn't play it without BA, Young Pyro, and Cabal Therapy. Bloodghast is significantly worse than Phoenix in combat and doesn't allow blocking. Dark Ritual supports the 3drops in the sideboard, so dropping that seems bad as well.
Grinding tech comes out of the sideboard, in my humble opinion. Yp,.therapy, bitterblossom, engineer, borrower.
I'm going to push back a bit there. I think you could take a similar critique to BA: It's a 3cmc spell + set-up that aims to win over a couple of turns through combat. The immediate competition for it is Doomsday and Show&Tell, two "this resolves I win" buttons. I've played the Grixis Buried Alive version myself and, boy, what a blast to swoop in 3 Birds; but getting your BA countered is just lights out. You also don't have any other (MD) use for your Rituals in this Shadow version (such as T1 Bob + discard), so you're basically reduced to an underpowered A+B(+3rd spell!) combo. Meanwhile, the only Phoenix deck that has continued to show up at all over the past year is the UR version, which is all redundancy with 12 flyers and 16 (!) cantrips. The point being, it's no effort at all to put in a Phoenix. Or put differently, the Birds are not worse than Delver, Entombs just act as Delvers #5-8. So yes, resolving Entomb for Griselbrand is obviously more powerful, but unlike in Reanimator, when they Force your Entomb in a Phoenix deck, you just go on about your business and keep playing tempo. Correctly speaking, opponents should be boarding Forces out vs us. The Entombs are like the Lootings the UR list, just guaranteed to hit. Phoenix didn't need Buried Alive to dominate Modern until Looting got axed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Gamble: In a non-black Phoenix list I would also like one as an extra copy of Looting, but Gamble over Entomb here doesn't make any sense to me.
As for the Bloodghast: Turning a topdecked Entomb into a hasty 2/1 in the mid-game seems ... fine. I'm not arguing to play it over Phoenix. You could also run a single copy of Creeping Chill for extra reach instead, but that's even cuter. Ultimately, all this is going to need testing.
What bothers me most is that it makes too much sense to run Gut Shots, but I really want a couple of Bolts.
Those are all fair points. I forget that the deck can just naturally spam 3 spells and get a Phoenix, with Entomb being one of the spells. The best part is that the deck can just do it's thing and be good, without any real extra work. I'm still sold on the BA plan for now, but I'll have to keep tabs and see where your experience takes you. Hopefully you continue to post here, I'd love to hear back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobitzki
I don't think Bolts are too difficult to put in, I might be completely wrong, but it shouldn't be too much of a stretch. It's basically sacrificing the 'free' nature of 2 Gut Shots, but with the cantrips it shouldn't be hard to work the numbers around a little. Your point about having so many cantrips is definitely valid, I have 9 in the below list but I'm feeling like there is always justification for more.
Here is my starting list (based on the primer you posted, but I'm also adding Lightning Bolt to those flex slots mentioned.)
4x Delver
4x Shadow
4x Phoenix
4x Bstorm
4x Ponder
1x Preordain
4x Ritual
4x BA
4x Daze
3x Force
4x TSeize
2x Gut Shot
2x Bolt
4x Delta
3x Tarn
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty
3x Watery Grave
1x Steam Vents
1x Blood Crypt
1x Island
1x Swamp
In this setup, Gut Shot allows for more explosive turns 1-2. However, I wouldn't blind shoot a DR > BA without protection, either in the form of a preemptive Thoughtseize t2 or a Daze/Force in hand to protect it.
Just a thought: if you're playing Entomb, maybe a better card than Dark Ritual would be Manamorphose. It's another 'free' spell that can turbocharge Phoenix turns. It also shores up one of the worst matchups in Moon Stompy.
So I was a little disappointed after testing the list. I really wanted it to be a more combo-ish deck and it really just turned into a delver variant with more, uh, variance.
So I'm back on Dreadnought. Looking to make a white splash, for a minimum of Enlightened Tutor x2. Orzhov Charm is on my mind as well, which was suggested by Fox.
Short list of Etutor targets:
Phyrexian dreadnought (of course...)
Scroll of Fate
Engineered Explosives
Standstill
Tidehollow Sculler
Detention Sphere
Pithing Needle
Crucible of Worlds
Shirt list of white cards to splash:
Swords to Plowshares
Orzhov Charm
Disenchant
Lingering Souls
Stoneforge Mystic + equips (5-6 cards minimum)
Sevinne's Reclamation
Teferi, Time Raveler
Any thoughts are welcome! Annnnnnd....go!
I had a feeling there was a separate thread for this.
Phyrexian Dreadnought and Death's Shadow never really fit together well before, but the new card Dress Down offers to tie them together neatly in a tempo strategy without Standstill and do something other Dreadnought decks couldn't do without falling as light on threats as Shadow can. @MrSafety this could be the boost your deck needed.
The perfect storm of the escape Titans and Dress Down is exactly what Dreadnought needed.
My team has mostly gone towards the Vaka Nought Uro variant so I havent had as much time to tweak the Kroxa Shadow Vaka Nought version but here is where I am currently with that list...
Shadow Vaka Nought
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Death’s Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Street Wraith
2 Kroxa
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
2 Ponder
1 Reanimate
1 Snuff Out/Flusterstorm/Force of Negation/Expedite
1 Spell Pierce/Drown In the Loch/Temur’s Battle Rage
4 Wasteland
14 Grixis Lands
It's very possible this is just what it needed, I'll probably nab some copies in case it's good tech.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
I was really excited about this possibility, but Dragon's Rage Channeler consistently outperformed Death's Shadow for me during testing. Surveil is just so powerful when combined with cantrips, Dreadnoughts and Lazavs. This is where I ended up with the list, after eventually dropping Death's Shadow altogetherQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Vaka Nought - Surveil aka. Naked Nought
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Dragon's Rage Channeler
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Kroxa
1-2 Lazav, the Multifarious
1-2 Ragavan (Test Slots, could instead go to Force of Negation or Flusterstorm or Drown in the Loch or Preordain or to a different threat such as Death's Shadow or Delver of Secrets or to Urza's Saga targets like Soul Guide Lantern or Pithing Needle)
0-1 Urza's Saga
3-4 Wasteland
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
Surveil is such an incredibly strong ability with cantrips and boot strapping it to Channeler and Lazav made it very abusable. There is absolutely no reason why the above list couldn't incorporate Street Wreaths, Shock lands and Death's Shadows into the above deck, and maybe I was building the deck in correctly when I tried. So maybe someone here will have better luck than me integrating Death's Shadow, Dress Down and Phyrexian Dreadnought into the same list, but I think either Dragon's Rage Channeler or Ragavan will be key to be able to pulling it off.
Adding to the Dress Down synergy, Urza's Saga can grab Dreadnought and can also grab Hex Parasite which pairs well with Death's Shadow. But Saga is probably too slow.
The core of the deck would be...
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Wasteland
I think Defiant Strike is perfect in the above package if we want to 1 shot our opponent and stick with Dimir but red gives us Temur's Battle Rage, Thud, Expedite and powerful threats like DRC and Ragavan that both act as removal magnets and either help dig for needed cards are play them form your opponents library
Urza's Saga is probably too slow because there isn't any way to make good use of the constructs; they would be 1/1's, maybe 2/2's. I don't see that being good enough. The whole point of playing Shadow with Dreadnought is to get the count of big fat dudes up to 8. If I could reliably make at least a 5/5 with Urza's Saga then I would immediately include it, possibly along with Crucible of Worlds x1. My biggest hesitation is that Urza's Saga, if built around correctly, is incredibly powerful on its own. If I'm being truly honest with myself, US is a much more powerful strategy. It's doing bonkers stuff in other decks. I'm not saying it wouldn't be good, but it would be like Deathrite Shaman in Nic Fit: still really good, but not optimized like in Grixis Delver.
Did you mean Tainted Strike? I've eyeballed that card a few times, but it doesn't provide evasion or trample, something I would really need. If it gave flying + infect, even for 2 mana, it would be pretty awesome. Tainted Strike is also a complete non-bo with Dress Down, which is the card that pulls the two big threats together in a big way, allowing to attack with 12/12's and 13/13's. I'm not sure about the layering of it, but I think Dress Down will void the infect even if I play Strike after DD. There are other options in black, like Rite of Consumption, but that is a sorcery at 2 mana. Doing it all in one turn seems ambitious, to put it lightly.
Is there any card you would cut from the below shell? I feel like every card below is an automatic 4 of, right?
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
4 Death's Shadow
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Wasteland
14 Lands
Unfortunately, that only leaves 6 free slots. Street Wraith, Snuff Out, Gurmag Angler and a single Reanimate seem like solid includes but I don't see a way to find room to play anything else. Should the focus be on maxing lifeloss with Snuff Outs and Street Wraiths to allow a early shadow or controlling elements like Drown in the Lochs, FoN and maybe even Dark Confidant. Should Dress Down and Ponder be shaved down?
Or perhaps thanks to FIRE, a vanilla beater like Shadow that can be chumpblocked is just no longer worth it given how powerful 1 drops like Ragavan and DRC have gotten.
I think those slots are locked in, with one exception (I go into detail below.) With Street Wraiths there could be an argument for cutting to 3 Ponder, but I wouldn't do it, it's just too good of a card. I don't think Street Wraith is a pure necessity for any deck with Death's Shadow, but the single Reanimate gives us functionally a 5th Shadow/Dreadnought that dies to non-Swords removal. Dress Down provides the same card draw, albeit with a mana cost, but with the upside of making Shadow a 13/13 for big swings. Shadow's lack of trample is kind of a big deal though, so even with Dress Down making it big, it could still be chumped by just about anything.
I think I would, at a minimum, add 2x Fatal Push. It's just too important to have early for Ragavan and other new threats, like USaga Constructs and Dragon's Rage Channeler. All of the threats that get around it, like Murktide Regent, will have to be addressed with Snuff Out. Without Street Wraith you could argue that Snuff Out x4 might be ok.
I've been thinking about this particular setup, and I honestly don't know if it wants Daze. That may sound ludicrous, but lifting a land to have Daze for free sounds really suspect. This isn't really a tempo deck that puts pressure on t1. I think the correct play is probably Stubborn Denial. It is turned on by both threats and is perfectly serviceable as a Force Spike in the early game. If tapping out becomes a necessity for almost every game on t2, then the answer to that could be some number of Force of Negation. I just don't think Daze is going to allow us to do everything we want.
So I would do this:
-4 Daze
+4 removal (Snuff Out/Fatal Push mix)
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Force of Negation
+1 Open slot
Playing 'protect the queen' is the whole game plan for a deck like this, and I'm not sure it's good enough. I could see a complete rework of the deck being possibly good, but likely not as good as what UR Delver is doing. Shadow is, unfortunately, not nearly as good as Ragavan or even Dragon's Rage Channeler. Ditto for Dreadnought, it's just too susceptible to removal. For this deck to work it would need to have a way to get a 12 or 13 power creature on the battlefield and win the same turn, possibly outside of combat. If there was a way to do that, it might be ok. Otherwise I honestly don't think putting more time into the deck is worth it, I have other projects with much greater promise.
I agree with looking at Daze for the cut. After that maybe the 4th Dress Down, just for curve reasons.
It seems counterintuitive to cut Daze with that curve, but there are 8x 1 drops and 0x turn 1 creatures. Death's Shadow is unlikely to hit the field until turn 3-4. In order to make room for 4 Stifle + 4 Dress Down + 4 Nought, you had to cut some space occupied by Shadow enablers (Street Wraith, Snuff Out, Reanimate, etc) so DeathNought will get Shadow online a bit slower than regular Shadow builds. DressNought is also a turn 3 play. So this deck will rarely have anything on the board before you hit 3 lands (or risks walking into 2-for-1s with turn 2 Stiflenought), which creates no pressure for opponent to play into Daze and makes it awkward for you to pick up your own lands on turns 1 and 2. OTD is worse because you could be facing a lot of damage from their turn 1 DRC/Ragavan/Esper Sentinel/Aether Vial/Chalice that dodged Daze.
On the flip size, you can operate off very few lands so you don't mind trading early plays to Stifle and Waste them, and picking up Watery Grave could help enable Shadow even if it slows down your clock. If there was a 3rd threat that came down early, like Delver or Ragavan, you might get better use out of Daze. That would take the spot of Gurmag or Reanimating Wraith (can't afford to cut down too much interaction).
Maybe Grixis DeathNought with Ragavan is the way to go. Your mana gets worse, but if you're playing a low-land deck that wants to trade land-for-land with the opponent that isn't necessarily a bad thing as they're tapping their land to Waste you (after you got mana) instead of making you Waste them. Just don't skimp on FoN to beat T1 Blood Moons. Ragavan is the type of card that really creates the urgency to walk into Daze, and by running Dreadnoughts and Shadow for lategame you can ignore the things that would embarass Ragavan (something other Ragavan decks can't always do). Ragavan also helps you recover cards when control decks deal with Dreadnought. Otherwise UB would need something like Bob.
I agree on Dark Confidant, it was in an earlier rendition (maybe even the first one?) It's ok to have a disruptive/dig plan for t1 (Thoughtseize, Stifle, Stubborn Denial, Ponder) and then follow it up with a 2 drop. It puts the deck into mid-range territory, which is completely fine. The rub is Force of Will + Dark Confidant blind flips. It won't happen often, but it will happen often enough to lose percentages. The best card is actually Standstill, but that competes with Dress Down for space. It's entirely an awkward setup, even if Dress Down does allow for big dudes for 1 mana.
SFZ 5-0ed with a very neat Death Dressnought brew...
Creature (10)
4 Death's Shadow
2 Murktide Regent
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
Sorcery (8)
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
Instant (20)
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Snuff Out
4 Stifle
Enchantment (4)
4 Dress Down
Land (18)
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Watery Grave
Sideboard
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Brazen Borrower
2 Fatal Push
2 Plague Engineer
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Sylvan Library
1 Torpor Orb
The 6 flex slots in SFZ’s brew went to...Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
2 Murktide Regent
2 Snuff Out
2 Berserk
Do you agree with those choices? Do you think Berserk (and sideboard options) is worth the green splash? It clearly worked well for him.
I think the green is definitely worth the splash, because Berserk gives Shadow trample. It can win in one turn, which is important without red for Bolts to close out. Abrupt Decay is just as playable as ever, and Sylvan Library is the literal nuts against most blue decks. I like it, I just need the Berserk and Dress Downs to make it happen.
I'm not crazy about Daze in this list, it slows the deck down by at least 1 turn. I would probably change out the Daze's for 2x Stub and 2x Force of Negation maindeck to see if they can do a similar job without slowing mana development.
Here is how I picture Death Nought post Dress Down and Prismatic Ending..
8 1cc All in threats (4 Nought, 4 Death’s Shadow)
Either a white splash for Esper Sentinel and Mother or Runes or a red splash to also play Dragon Rage and Ragavan as lightning rods to soak up removal before you cast shadow/nought
Tons of cantrips and Confidants (another lightning rod) to help find your cheap threats
4 Thoughtseize to help protect your all in threats.
4 Dress Down as the main combo piece
4 Wasteland + 4 Stifle to let you focus on mana disruption to make your Dazes and Esper Sentinels more powerful.
But I do love Berserk and Sylvan Library and Ignoble Hierarch and 4 Aether Vial if we are playing so many 1cc creatures and lands that make colorless mana.
Perhaps if we drop the cantrips and dazes and adopt a rainbow manabase around 4 Mana Confluence, 4 City of Brass, 4 Gemstone Caverns, 1-2 Urborg, 1-2 Yavimaya, 4 Aether Vial 2-4 Ignoble, 4 Wasteland plus possibly a Saga or two as the only colorless mana producers.
That could work.
I'm pretty soft on Dreadnought/Shadow right now, to be completely frank. The blue decks basically have infinite removal right now with Prismatic Ending making such a big impact. UR delver can race us, easily, due to the self-inflicted life loss. The only real advantage is in the combo matchups, which is where UB shadow lives in general anyways. UB Shadow is a much more consistent deck, with fewer deck-building risks.
Am I saying you can't build a Dreath-Nought deck and do well? No, I'm not saying that. But I also think that it's an uphill battle in most matchups, and that doesn't feel good. At the end of the day, Shadow and Dreadnought are just big dumb dudes that take extra work to get online. That doesn't seem very interesting to me currently.