hmmmm... too many cooks spoil the broth, im thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by scutakicker
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hmmmm... too many cooks spoil the broth, im thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by scutakicker
Exactly! Tao has said repeatedly that these cards simply do not work in his build. After much goldfishing, I completely agree. I have a build that incorporates all the cards everyone is mentioning (as I said earlier) including:Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz
4 Crop Rotation
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Zuran Orb
4 Crucible of Worlds
(All of which could be reduced to 3, probably, with no adverse affect)
And my own personal tech:
4 Compulsive research
1 Cephalid Coliseum
- which works quite well with the Crucible.
In order to fit these in, I am only running 26 lands and no Loam, Manabond or Mulch. Very different deck. My kill is usually via Hurricane or Shivan Gorge. This version was meant for my greatest love - Casual Multiplayer.
The above cards turn this into a completely different deck. Completely.
So lets stay on topic. I dont think changes need to be made to make the deck more consistant, it just needs changes to shore up its combo matchup. Have you tried maindeck Trinispheres yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by syssc9
Ok so i know some people are saying that the deck doesn't play well with:
crop rotation
Crucible
Ect..Ect...
But the truth of the matter is the deck plays just fine with these. As long as you keep it to just these. You can remove Mulch...yesss i know it usually says draw 4 cards. But the deck plays just fine without them. Also roar of the wurm is simple an extremely week card most of the time. I mean sure if you get the nuts draw and play it on turn 2 its pretty strong...but then again it still not that amazing and its horrible in the mirror.
Basically i'll just post my list that i've been playing with. It shows to be pretty strong against most of the field. Then i'll post reasoning behind certain cards.
4 Rishidan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
3 Savannah
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Nantuko Monastery
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Secluded Step
1 Forgotten Cave
1 Slippery Karst
3 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Manabond
4 Exploration
4 Life from the Loam
3 Crop Rotation
2 Crucible of Worlds
SB:
4 Armageddon
4 Enlightened Tutor
1 Cop: Red
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Rule of Law
1 City of Solitude
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
Ok so the lands are pretty basic...the only thing i've changed there was:
-1 Maze -1 Slippery Karst....+1 Riftstone +1 Glacial Chasm
The deck can easily support the downside to chasm each turn and if need be you can always just pay the life for a few turns if you absolutely had to...but thats assuming u don't have crucible OR LftL active
I think the Riftstone Portal speaks for itself...makes maze..glacial..tabernacle..wastlelands ect ect all Savannahs as well
Crucible:
This card is well ridiculous on its own in control decks w/ wasteland so why isn't it a part of a deck that REVOLVES around Lands...because you have LftL right...well thats a 4 of in a 60 card deck...this allows you 2 more options that Aren't as mana intesive. But the kicker here is that you don't auto lose to turn one chalice for 1!!!...i've won 3 or 4 games now were i kept crucible in the opening and got chaliced for 1 before i could lay a land. Its just another amazing option for the deck...combos amazing w/ glacial/exploration too!
Crop Rotation:
This card is still another amazing card for the deck...i mean its a one mana instant tutor for nearly the entire deck...good for combat tricks...tutor in the monastary or factory...or maze..or glacial...i mean its pretty ridiculous...kinda like playing w/ 5 tabernacles as well :)
The sideboard is basically my attempt at having a chance against combo. granted u normally just get rolled, but this makes them work a little harder atleast haha.
As a metagame decision i would run blessing in the board because i know the solidarity players are weak...with the exception of one guy....but lets see here:
Armageddon:
staple against control and actually pretty strong against solidarity in testing when it resolves.
Enlightened Tutor:
Searches for a turn 2 manabond/exploration...or anit combo piece.
Cop Red:
Very Obvious...and pretty ridiculous...better than zuran orb thanks to price of progress
Seal of Cleansing:
This comes in against Scepter and Back to Basics
Tormod's Crypt:
Very good against Iggy Pop and other fun stuff
Chalice of Void:
Chalice for 1 is pretty strong against High Tide and even chalice at 0 slows down iggy pop a little
Pithing Needle:
this is another card that neads no explanation
Rule of Law:
Great against combo
City of Solidarity:
Good against high tide but rather weak against others...probably going to get cut for an extra seal of cleansing
Other sideboard options are running a full supply of Orim's Chants
Anyway thats just a little food for thought on the deck. I've been testing it over and over and it seems to run really well.
@ Mad Bomber : I like your list. This deck definitly needs Crucible and Crop. I believe while slower than Mulch, you do not auto lose to Chalice at 2. This becomes important because now more than ever are we seeing Chalice in boards to deal with thresh and combo.
My one suggestion would be to cut some Taiga or switch the numbers with Savannah since with your sideboard no longer packing pyro, the only use for red becomes the single cycle land and your 2 rings.
@ Mad Bomber - This list is a nice improvement due to the elimination of Mulch. However Manabond still poses a similar problem. I suppose you could wait to use it till you had nothing in your hand but lands to avoid dumping other cards you need (Crucible, etc.!) This seems a bit contrived at first glance. How is it working out for you in testing?
Hey Tao - whadaya think of the current changes?
Very well put...i guess i was working so hard on tuning the bigger stuff i forgot that simple detail haha....so -1 Taiga +1 SavannahQuote:
Originally Posted by Afro
@syssc9
Yes if you draw Manabond and Crucible..you turn one the Manabond and don't dump your hand...it is a MAY effect...cast Crucible and then dump away
I created an account just to point out to you how much more completely awesome that hand is w/ mulch instead of crucible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Bomber
Mulch would be great there...unless they chalice at one or force your manabond...now mulch isn't so great.Quote:
Originally Posted by VaBeachScrub
The thing with mulch is that its ONLY good if you have an exploration or manabond already on the board...otherwise its less than amazing.
Adding Crucible only makes the deck stronger in my opinion. I should be playing this deck this sunday. I'll leave feedback on the crop rotation/crucible version for those who are interested
If you don't have an exploration or manabond then the deck isn't doing much of anything. Even then I'd still rather have the mulch, which will put good cards in your hand and dig for life from the loam. Crucible isn't even an option until the next turn and even then its synergy is subpar. Play cycle lands out of your graveyard? Pass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Bomber
Yea but i here its pretty good with wasteland in the current legacy enviroment.Quote:
Originally Posted by VaBeachScrub
On a side note...i am testing a new sideboard card over Armageddon.
Obliterate is pretty much an auto win card against any landstill type deck. Being that your deck doesn't have much for action spells they usually have a hand full of counters late game for you Geddon...but the uncounterable effect of Obliterate is quite nice...and the fact that your manabond/exploration lives through it..well its an auto win should it resolve really.
Hmm. On a touch of whimsy, I remembered Recoup. That card gets pretty silly with Mulch. Flashing Back Mulch doesn't seem right, now does it? Plus, Recoup has the added bonus of giving Flashback to Roar of the Wurm. :wink:
Well, Godzilla closed the topic I made, so I'll repost this with some changes I made:
This is my list:
// Lands
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
4 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 [MM] Rishadan Port
2 [OD] Barbarian Ring
1 [ON] Forgotten Cave
4 [ON] Tranquil Thicket
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [R] Taiga
4 [UL] Treetop Village
1 [ON] Barren Moor
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
3 [B] Bayou
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Spells
4 [EX] Manabond
3 [RAV] Life from the Loam
4 [US] Exploration
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [JU] Burning Wish
2 [RAV] Darkblast
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RAV] Life from the Loam
SB: 1 [CHK] Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 [OD] Haunting Echoes
SB: 3 [SC] Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 [7E] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [PS] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [TO] Devastating Dreams
SB: 1 [TO] Chainer's Edict
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [GP] Leyline of the Void
I made a few major changes to the deck.
--Adding black: I really didn't think white added much to the deck. Monastery isn't that necessary, and through testing, I rarely found myself wanting to play Geddon. Black adds Darkblast, which is really helpful against aggro, including Goblins. It also allows me to SB Duress, which is my sideboard option against combo decks.
--The Wishboard. Other than Clasm, Sascha's sideboard seems godawful to me. Gaea's Blessing is not a sufficient answer to Solidarity. I'd rather not sit back and let them sodomize me, hoping they can't answer it. Plus, it's much more narrow than Duress and Pyrostatic Pillar (both of which also answer Iggy Pop and Salvagers Game).
--Removing Roar of the Wurm and Mulch/Less win conditions: This deck, at least the way I play it, is very good at slowrolling. Recurring Wastes/Ports let you slow your opponent down. With that, I find that I don't need a large amount of win conditions. Factory and Village are fine, and recurring Barb Rings can deal the last few. As for removing Mulch, more often than not it was a dead card in my hand, and when I played it, it did little more than be a pseudo-Loam. I'd rather have Wish, which can get a REAL Loam.
New card choices:
Crucible of Worlds: Acts as Loam 4-5. It's just as good for recurring your lands. It also doesn't need you to keep paying mana (though it's more vulnerable).
Burning Wish: See "Wishboard" above. Also functions as Loams 6-8.
Darkblast: This card is really, really good. It is a wonderful answer to turn 1 Lackey or any other X/1s, as well as being a nice combat trick with your manlands. Plus, it can help you Dredge into Loam a lot faster than trying to draw it.
Dust Bowl: This is a bit of a testing spot. Dust Bowl rips apart any deck that fails to play basics.
Wishboard: I think most of it is self-explanatory. I didn't put anything particularly revolutionary there.
Matchups:
Sadly, I have only been able to test on mwsplay.net. I think people who play here know how godawful most people on there can be. So take these with a grain of salt.
Goblins: My version seems to do a lot better against Goblins than the original. Darkblast is an MVP. So is Tabernacle. Keep them locked up with Tabernacle and Mazes, or find a Wish-->Pyroclasm. As long as you can survive the initial onslaught and take it into the lategame, you can take advantage then. Until then, Tabernacle is the best answer to creature rushes. Also, remember that you can play Darkblast during your upkeep, dredge it back, and play it again to kill a 2/2.
Sideboarding: Nothing. Game 2/3 they might board in Tormod's Crypt if they have it. All I can say is play carefully--I have yet to put in an answer to it.
Thresh: A++ matchup. Mazes can stall Werebears and Enforcers/Dragons, and Mongoose is generally not big enough to make it past Villages or blocking Factories. Lock their mana sources down with Wasteland and Port. Tabernacle is also fun after this to add insult to injury. The fact that they cannot counter most of your business cards (including Loam, usually) is a benefit to you.
Sideboarding: -2 Darkblast +2 Duress. Darkblast isn't going to help you much. Might as well replace it with Duress, which can knock out a Daze or STP.
Solidarity/Other combo: Awful matchup game 1. I can't imagine winning these matchups game 1 unless you get blessed with a lot of Ports in the beginning of the game, and even then, not sure. Wasteland can also do damage against non-High Tide combo decks. Still, do not expect to win game 1.
Sideboarding: -4 Maze of Ith -2 Tabernacle -1 Darkblast +4 Duress +3 Pyrostatic Pillar. This is still a painful matchup, but at least you have answers. Remember, if you can accelerate hard enough, you can Wish into Cranial or Tsunami.
Other cards considered:
-Riftstone Portal: Even without white in the deck anymore, this lets every land you have make green mana...including Maze of Ith and Tabernacle (and Factory, et al.).
-Perish/Deathmark: I considered this, as both of these are powerful, but I'm not sure what exactly it helps against.
-Some sort of spot removal (Wishboard): I've noticed I pretty much lack this in general. Chainer's Edict springs to mind.
-Chalice of the Void/3sphere - I tried playing 3sphere in the maindeck before, but it was often just a dead card. I'm not sure if either of these has too much merit in the SB.
-Urza's Factory: An additional win condition, and it's much more resilient than manlands. Maybe as a 1-of.
NEW Stuff:
I only changed around the sideboard. DDreams was added back in because I have found that I want it more often than I want Massacre, which is probably unnecessary since white aggro seems like a good matchup.
Rude Awakening seems like a great card to end the occasional manland stalemates. However, it might end up just becoming the 4th Duress it replaced. *EDIT* Not anymore. This thing has gotten me a bunch of wins by doing ~20 in one swing.
Glacial Chasm was suggested by a bunch of people as another answer to Goblins. One copy is enough--I have enough dredge to find it. *EDIT* Taken out. It didn't serve much of a purpose.
I think the changes I have made significantly benefit the deck as a whole.
NEW STUFF (9/25):
-Chainer's Edict: Recommended to me by an Sourcer on MWSPlay, it serves the spot removal I mentioned before. I felt I could drop RA safely.
-Shattering Spree: Mostly to deal with Chalice for 1, which restricts your manaboosters.
-Leyline of the Void: With this, I've decided to give up on the Solidarity matchup. This improves the other combo matchups severely, and helps also versus random things. This is also why I dropped Tsunami.
Sascha played it again in our small tourney on Friday. He went 4-0. It is amazing to see what this deck usually does to Goblins and to see someone play it who can play it really good.
He changed the MD only a little bit but played a completely different SB.
The changes he suggested for the MD were iIrc:
- 2 Roar
- 1 Land
+ 2 Riftone Portal
+ 1 Mulch
The Riftstone Portals suggested by Diablos are extremely powerful. Dead Fetchlands and especially Maze and Tabernacle can be used for Mana with it and you are not too light on green Mana when you cycle Tranquil Thicket and play Loam with it.
The SB was something very close to Mad Bombers suggestions:
4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Armageddon
1 Rule of Law
1 CoP: Red
1 Zuran Orb
1 Nevi Disk
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Ray of Revelation
With Time Spiral Ancient Grudge will be added to the sideboard.
Has anyone considered using Vesuva? As a way to having a 5th Wasteland, -Port, Barb Ring, or Man Land.
Or does it's 'come into play tapped' make it considerably slow and undesirable?
just looking over some of the Future Sight lands. Here's one that caught my eye:
Horizon Canopy
[Rare]
Land
[T] add [W] or [G], take 1 damage
1 [T] Sacrifice Horizon Canopy, draw 1 card
Could this replace some of the cycle lands?
PROS:
-Doesn't come into play tapped
-Provides for 2 types of mana
-Cycling Esque ability
CONS:
-costs 1 life to utilize mana
-to use it's cantrip ability, it will cost you your land drop (assuming Exploration or Manabond aren't advailable).
Does anyone else have the problem of their cycle Lands being potential 'dead-in-hand' cards or no?
The R/G land isn't nearly as amazing, no cantrip, but tapping for R/G nets the opponent 1 life. However it taps for colorless with no penalty.
I am intending to run 43 lands next week at a tournament, as I can't do anything good with Solidarity. This is also assuming the Manabonds and Taigas come in this week (which is strange because EVERYTHING on Ebay was bought at the same time and came in last week)
SPELLS: 17
4 Burning Wish
4 Exploration
4 Manabond
3 Life From The Loam
2 Mulch
LANDS: 43
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Maze Of Ith
3 Nantuko Monestary
3 Savannah
3 Tranquil Thicket
3 Treetop Village
2 Barbarian Ring
2 Tabernacle At The Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Riftstone Portal
1 Slippery Karst
SIDEBOARD: 15
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Leyline Of The Void
3 Zuran Orb
1 Demonfire
1 Devastating Dreams
1 Life From The Loam
1 Wildfire
The sideboard looks a bit bizarre but I'm experimenting with a few things, such as Chalice for Solidarity (yes, it's a piss poor attempt, but I believe it's the only good counter against it as Gaeas Blessing WON'T WORK....at least here, as me and one other guy run Solidarity and we both know how to run circles around it) and maybe other combo, and Leyline in case of Hulk Flash and Reanimator. I know theres a couple reanimator decks that run about
Yes, I KNOW Leyline HURTS this deck as far as the LOAM engine goes, but Hulk Flash and Reanimator REALLY NEED their graveyards a LITTLE MORE than I do. If I side out the Manabonds and Loams (adding Leylines and some Chalice) and leave in the Explorations, I believe the deck should still work properly AND faster than the opponent with the graveyard disruption intact
Plus, with Leyine out, I can keep Wishing for Demonfires straight to the dome.
Any suggestions before I attempt this thing? Anyone have any sideboard suggestion against some of the top tier decks (Goblins, Landstill, 9 lands stompy....whatever you have had experience with)
Your own Leyline doesn't effect your yard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weekend Daddy
Now is a really bad time to play this deck. Really, really bad time.
You can do absolutely nothing to Hulk Flash pre-board except Wasteland. You can board in Leyline, but they pack bounce, and it's not like they won't have a million and a half turns to find it.
43 lands has always had problems with combo, and when combo is the best deck in the format, 43 lands is a poor choice.
I've recently begun to think this deck could benefit against combo (mostly Solidarity) and control decks by using a set of Devastating Dreams in the board. The suggestion could be way out there. I also think a full set of Cabal Therapies should be in the board for the builds using black. I'd actually like to see someones take on a four color build of this deck.