We could splash blue for cantrips and meddling mage, or black for discard, vindicate, and Bob.
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We could splash blue for cantrips and meddling mage, or black for discard, vindicate, and Bob.
Splashing another color "might" be too detrimental to the deck. Unless you can find other creatures that can be the equivalent to what we have now. I think each creature here has a specific role (Grunts for graveyard hate, silver knights for anti gobs, Stonecloakers for bounce, Serra Avenger for good beats, Isamaru for beats, Hokori for mana taxing, Mangara for combo-removal).Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscuitVader
Having the top out and having to expend one mana every turn to sort your deck manipulation hurts... especially when you need that mana for Rishadan activation or dropping a creature.
When you said "better" way to draw cards, that lead me to think. This deck is a little slow and could really use card drawing. The only way to do this without splashing a color is artifacts. I think the inclusion of Mask of Memory might be useful here.
Here are the positives: It lets you dig through your deck and it puts a the worst card in your hand in your graveyard... which could then be recycled with grunts.
The Negatives: The 2 CC requirement makes it expensive... and then the 1 cost to equip can set you back. Without cards like Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, it is really slow. If you start adding equipment, it becomes more like an Angel Stompy without the Angels (Exalted that is).
Quote:
Hopefully the color we add will give us a better way to draw cards, because top is nice, but it is mana hungry. I think we need something else.
Cantrips work great with Jotun Grunt, but really bad with Glowrider. In fact, Glowrider is essentially a catrip hoser. That's why we love him.Quote:
We could splash blue for cantrips and meddling mage, or black for discard, vindicate, and Bob.
I rather like Confidant. But one of the things that exasperates my opponents is the sheer futility of trying to bust my manabase. If we go even a little into black, that benefit goes out the window. I mean, the Top's main function is to keep you from flooding your hand with copies of legendary permanents, right? How much do we really need draw? I have been happy with the Top. I have been happy paying the 1 for it's benefits. So is the second color worth the price of significant reduction in mana stability? I would say not.
But I could see possibly trading in my tops for a Mask of Memory since that has a nifty discard attached to it.
What about using Snow Plains and Scrying Sheets? That could assist Divining Tops a lot for some true card advantage.
i've been doing some more testing with the deck, and without a top to keep them down, 4 karakas is just too many. added wastelands to the manabase and slightly increased the total number of lands, this modification helps the threshold and random.dec matchups significantly, also did some minor tweaking with the board.
hoser critters
3x glowrider
3x jotun grunt
3x true believer
legendary critters
3x isamaru
3x mangara
3x hokori
good critters
4x serra avenger
3x stonecloaker
equipment
2x umezawa's jitter
2x sword of fire and ice
removal
4x swords to plowshares
mana denial
4x wasteland
4x rishadan port
mana
4x aether vial
6x plains
2x flooded strand
2x windswept heath
legendary mana
3x karakas
2x eiganjo
sideboard
1x glowrider
1x jotun grunt
1x true believer
3x tivadar of thorn
3x disenchant/seal of cleansing (still not sure which is better here)
3x sphere of resistance
3x absolute law
law is just the stone nutz against goblins. tivadar tricks are nice, but even with karakas, he's not enough to shut them down completely, whereas law is. also considering running tivadar's crusade over tivadar, except the pro: red and first strike are nice, especially with jitte, and his legendary status works very well with karakas and eiganjo. the wastelands are a huge help in this deck, really help with the cast and equip costs and make your mana denial more respectable, even against goblins you can use them to shut down opposing 'ports at a minimum. dropping the fetchland count so low hurts grunt a little, but not that much, and without top, the shuffle effect is relatively useless.
I'm sceptical about going down to 3 karakas. While drawing 2 can be agrivating at times, it's even worse when you don't draw one at all. The karakas synergy is a big part of what makes this deck powerful, and without it games become significantly harder. I'm also sceptical about the equipment... seems wayyy to slow without tombs / city of traitors. I also think that 8 fetches is much better than 4 in this deck with top and grunt, and while wasteland is a powerful card, this deck is very white mana hungry. Also, you should try out silver knights in the main over true believers. The change is amazing, as it literally helps our match against every single deck with creatures.
Kronicler
i'll concede the point on knight, i tried moving the believers to the board in place of the laws, and put three silver knights in their place. matchups across the board improved except for combo. plus, first strike + jitte is just a great, great combo.
i still maintain the equipment has a place, an avenger is a three turn clock with a sword on her. t1 vial, t2 knight, t3 sword, vial out avenger, t4 equip and swing. Vial replaces the acceleration of tomb/city. 3 karakas is the right number if you don't have top. with 4 and no top they simply sit in your hand as dead cards. with no top, fetches do much, much less in the deck, and the four that remain are plenty.
Oh, I didn't see that you removed top. I guess that is what I really disagree with then, as without top we have no way of digging for cards or fixing our draws. I feel that every single deck in legacy, bar none, should have some kind of draw / deck manipulation. Without it luck becomes more of a factor than I enjoy, as I am not a very lucky person.
Kronicler
I agree that the top needs to be in the deck. I hate it, I want a better way to draw cards, but right now its the best we can do.
The addition of sword of fire/ice seems interesting. I want to do some testing with it. I love the card, but I'm not sure how good the three mans of its casting cost would be for the deck. I sometimes have trouble getting there if I don't draw a top. But I could see it working.
I'm going to do some testing tonight, and ill let you know how it goes
Oh man, I love this deck. I'm an avid Wombat player and as for the combo matchup, I seem to have that very well under control.
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showt...208#post111208
This deck fits my desire for a more aggressive-control build while stickin with my favorite color. It most certainly does NOT require another color.
1) Glowrider is nuts, probably side-material in this deck. Don't ever forget your glowriders.
2) For anti-combo, your best tools are Orim's Chant, Gilded Light, Abeyance. In that order, unless it's Empty the Warrens storm, in which case, Gilded Light is useless. The best part about the latter two, is they (can) draw a card, so their inclusion in the main is not unwarrented.
I'll have to test around with this deck some.. already ordered my Karakas.. umm Karakases? Karakasi? hrm.. I guess that doesn't come up much it being legendary and all.
This deck is not remotely like Wombat. The strategy is entirely, entirely different. It's WW beatdown with a very nasty twist. And I, for one will never be using any of those disruption cards you mentioned simply because none of them are capable of offense. Notice the theme that almost all of the disruptions turns around and beats. That is why this deck wins - offense and defense at the same time.
I understand the deck is different. I was trying to address Finn's concern about the bad combo matchup.
Yeah. That's why I'm suggesting them. How do you playing defense vs combo? That involves stopping their combo. You get that in the form of Glowrider and Believer on beatsticks.. but often those two aren't enough. Sphere of Resistance is ok, but it's also symmetrical, bouncable, and worst of all, forseeable. I assume your mana is often open, given Vial, so Abeyance, GLight, Chant are excellent options.Quote:
Originally Posted by chmoddity
Sphere doesn't, assuming your build doesn't run March of the Machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by chmoddity
Combostoppers are better especially since stopping them mid-combo is ALOT better than having them (and you) work around Sphere. They lose some of their resources in the process. And you even draw off of Abeyance.. so you don't lose tempo.
I like the idea of adding Wasteland.. which also happens to be the decks' most glaring vulnerability. The deck minus Karakas = janky WW.. Maybe consider adding Pithing Needle to the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
torgar, you really should try it before making that assumption. It has an awful lot more going on than Karakas. I typically play minus it in play simply because my opponents are apt to killing it, and I don't have any problems.Quote:
I like the idea of adding Wasteland.. which also happens to be the decks' most glaring vulnerability. The deck minus Karakas = janky WW..
Stonecloaker is just short of broken, and all the taxing is very effective. There is a reason the deck is becoming popular so quickly.
Wasteland would be a choice card if you don't mind only having 2 Plains in the deck. :)
I am trying it. And I have noticed the deck suffers greatly without Karakas... and obviously, Wasteland would replace Ports. [or fetches, in morgan's list, but I wouldn't cut fetches with top in the deck]
I would take ports over wastelands any day of the week. In this deck, Port is nothing short of amazing. And Chmoddity is right, this deck doesn't need Karakas to win.
Kronicler
I'm finding the Ports to be pretty damn good. Also, I think that Karakas is vulnerable in a Wasteland format, which was my real point. As the deck strongest asset, it'd be a good idea to try and protect it versus a common threat. Petrified Field anyone? :-)
i don't think wasteland belongs in the top version of the deck, but if you cut top, then losing some fetches for wastes is a definite improvement. wastelands can randomly sometimes protect karakas by wasting oppo wastelands before dropping your karakas. but kronicler is right, port > wasteland in this deck. also, everyone not running eiganjo needs to include at least one, probably two. its a real big help with the legends.
Why would you run a plains that can be hit with wastland? You just said this is a wastland format. I can see it being helpful against thresh, but against goblins, it does nothing.same against solidarity.
Also, this deck does not need kar. it just helps make winning easier.
I discovered this weekend that Burn fears Hokori and Glowrider. It fears Hokori with Karakas even more. I discovered that 43 Lands fears Hokori and Glowrider as well. Oh, and so does MUC.
I'm interested if D+T has better matchhups than its closest relatives. How does something like Angel Stompy do against these decks?