[Deck] RGB Survival Advantage (current builds)

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Maybe one Duplicant, like in the good old days?

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At 6 mana, I dont think duplicant is worth the slot. What would he remove that FTK couldnt already remove? Exalted, Silver, Soltari, Mystic Enforcer, Goyf?

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Originally Posted by AngryTroll

Goblin Sharpshooter is great. Bloodfire Dwarf sounds worth testing too. Warmonger is not as good as either of those, but I saw someone else mention it this week and thought it was worth looking into.

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Back when I use to run RG Survival Advantage I ran 1-2 sharpshooters and was never happy with them. Even in goblin games he gets picked off usually. Bloodfire Dwarf might be worth the slot because all the combos that use ETW.

I've been testing 2 x Wall of Roots in the Werebear slots and am pretty happy with them. I've also been testing Masticore, but I think he might be subpar.

I have also been testing Plague Spitter, but he doesn't seem quick enough to stop Etw.

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Originally Posted by porcupinetreeman

At 6 mana, I dont think duplicant is worth the slot. What would he remove that FTK couldnt already remove? Exalted, Silver, Soltari, Mystic Enforcer, Goyf?

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Exactly. Mystic Enforcer, Goyf, and Exalted Angel are all real threats that FtK does not kill. It might not be necessary, but it is really nice to be able to tutor up an answer when you need one. Akroma and friends are also things that can't be removed any other way. I am not sure that Duplicant is worth the slot, but I might test it again.

Edit: Deleted double post. Oops.

Why exactly is the debate for Duplicant up when Bone Shredder does the job for half the cost? Mystic Enforcer and Akroma aside, it kills everything else mentioned, for cheaper than FTK. As far as I know it was already in the decklist, so why is this issue even being raised?

One of the issues I can see up front is the idea that Boneshredder doesn't pose a threat itself, it does its job...then just chumps or something. FTK kills something then takes something else with it most likely. A 1/1 flyer isn't going to do much, not to mention it could tie up possible mana, but not sure mana would be an issue at later turns.

As combo becomes more and more of a common place in my meta, I was wondering what the best targets to wiff on for Cabal Therapy were against decks like TES, SI, and Iggy. Though I think I have a good idea what some of the targets are (i.e. Burning Wish and LED), I wasn't sure of THE target for each of these said decks. As I have never bothered to play combo in Legacy, advice and debate on the best targets for Therapy would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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Originally Posted by Tog

As combo becomes more and more of a common place in my meta, I was wondering what the best targets to wiff on for Cabal Therapy were against decks like TES, SI, and Iggy. Though I think I have a good idea what some of the targets are (i.e. Burning Wish and LED), I wasn't sure of THE target for each of these said decks. As I have never bothered to play combo in Legacy, advice and debate on the best targets for Therapy would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

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It depends greatly on what turn it is, and what you have in hand, etc.

P.S. "to whiff" means to attempt to hit and miss, not "to attack blindly."

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson.

To clarify, how about turn 1 Therapies, Game 2 on the play or the draw (your choice), against each of the said decks (TES, SI, and IGGY). Since the games states can get complicated rather quickly, I think this is the simplest scenario. In your post, please tell us what card you would name, your reasoning behind it, and whether you're on the play or the draw. If it is a real life (or online) experience, tell us the number of mulligans your opponent took as well in addition to what was outlined above and whether or not it effected your decision in the naming process.

BoardinCharlie had it right....I ran 4 FtK and 1 Boneshredder until recently. I have been playing with 3 FtK and 2 Boneshredders, but the Boneshredders typically end up killing a Goyf (or whatever) and then chumping. Taking out a Kavu lowers the total number of fat the deck is running, so I was looking for a solution that killed Goyfs, Exalteds, and Mystic Enforcers that was bigger than a 1/1. Since Duplicant would be a 1-of, you would almost never see it without Survival, in which case it can be a lot better than Bone Shredder.

I was just tossing the idea around...for now I am just running 2 Bone Shredders and 3 FtKs. Bone Shredder is good if you draw it without Survival, where Duplicant is a lot more limited, so I have been toying with the idea but not running it that way in tournaments.

As strong as Duplicant is, I can't justify running it due to its casting cost. The fact that is kills all the same things as Bone Shredder and lives to do some other bidding does not outweigh the fact that you will probably be dead by the time you cast it. Bone Shredder is great against Goblins because it is able to be played before FTK and allows you to chump something, but Duplicant isn't very likely to be cast at all against them given their mana denial. Plus fwiw, Duplicant isn't going to be able to deal with a Tarmogoyf played on turn 2 that will possibly be killing you within the next couple of turns.

Also on a side note, this doesn't really apply for RGBSA, but Survival decks running blue actually have a solid use for Gilded Drake again. Being able to steal a Tarmogoyf is 10x better than killing it.

Damnit. You play green, you play creatures, you play Discard >>>>>>> you play Tarmagoyf?!?!??!

It's not that complicated. Your deck gets a billion times better and you can stop whining about opposing Goyfs.

Yeah, um, Tarmogoyf? He's absolutely bonkers in almost every Survival deck that runs green. Run him. Seriously. He singlehandedly ended all debate about what the best green creature ever printed was.

That is all.

Did you people not read the last post I made in the ATW Survival thread? It addresses the possible inclusion of Tarmogoyf. I think this discussion should continue in that thread, as it is not RGBSA-specific, and applies to Survival in general.

I personally believe he is overhyped in Survival (not overall; he's retarded in Threshold), but I don't have enough testing under my belt with him to make a final judgment. From what it seems, MattH has also come to similar conclusions regarding him, but I may be wrong. I understand that he has the potential of being bigger than Werebear and can provide early beats, but unlike Wearbear, Tarmgoyf does not function as a mana accelerant either. I've used Werebear as a mana source in a majority of the games he's been played, so that could be a kicker. However, I believe a majority of Survival players will eventually shift to Nimble Mongoose over Werebar for the sole purpose of Goblin Lackey, and Tarmgoyf would probably fulfill that 2cc slot and provide an efficient beater. I only question him as he provides no usage outside of the "cheap beater role" unlike every other slot in the deck. Werebear fulfilled the role of mana source AND cheap beater, and so on.

Another issue I have with Tarmogoyf is now it makes the deck somewhat less resilient to graveyard hate. Generally when someone plays a Tormod's Crypt against me I laugh it off, because taking a Squee or Anger shouldn't lose me the game when there's an engine in play. But when you're all of a sudden having your primary beaters being weakened by Tormod's Crypt I see a problem. Maybe not a huge concern, but it does raise some concerns.

So like, continue this discussion in the other thread, and I'll move the posts later.

The reason I gave up on my Goyf-Sur deck was more that Goyf was just barely better than Elvish Warrior against goblins. He's probably insane against threshold, which I never got around to testing.

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The reason I gave up on my Goyf-Sur deck was more that Goyf was just barely better than Elvish Warrior against goblins. He's probably insane against threshold, which I never got around to testing.

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If that was the case then it is is a non-issue, as Survival naturally has a positive Threshold matchup. This may have possibly changed a bit now that Threshold has a decent creature, but I still don't foresee Survival decks having too much trouble against them, what with their robust engine, disruption package, larger creatures, and overall threat density. That said, the fact that the card is dismal against Goblins should be one of the biggest reasons against its inclusion. If it will only be a 2/3, 3/4 tops against them, then I think we need to find a better card for the slots.

With Sorcery Discard (you run 8) + Land (16 Fetchlands + 4 Wastelands on both sidew) + Creatures (yes) it is 3/4. If your discard or V. Shaman / TS Hooligan hits a Vial it grows to 4/5 and most Goblin builds run Swords to Plowshares or Pyrokinesis so that 4/5 is often possible and with luck even 5/6.

But is is important that an Elvish Warrior has just the perfect size against Goblins for the first 3-4 turns.

I've been doing a lot of work on this deck lately. On the one hand, it really doesn't have any easy matchups. On the other hand, not too many matchups are unwinnable. Thresh getting Goyf finally prompted me to overhall the deck, because that card single-handedly makes the matchup much worse. Between constant Lackey problems and the new, dreaded Goyf, and an accumulating layer of dust on the old list, I started messing with creatures and slots that had been set in stone for a while.

I played with answers for a the dreaded turn one Lackey, played with two drop creatures, and played with the removal spots, both hand- and creature- related.

If I were going to play the deck in a large tournament, say, this weekend, this is what I would be running.

4 Birds of Paradise
3 Tinder Wall
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Mesmeric Fiend
3 Ravenous Baloth
3 Flametongue Kavu
2 Boneshredder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Squee
1 Anger
1 Genesis
1 Rofellos
1 Tin Street Hooligan

4 Survival
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Burning Wish

4 Taiga
3 Bayou
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
5 Forest

SIDEBOARD
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Engineered Plague
Wish cards:
Deathmark
Hull Breach
Anarchy
Haunting Echoes
Pyroclasm
Regrowth
Flashfires
Cabal Therapy
Massacre


You might notice that I am running 61 cards, 2 Boneshredders, Mesmeric Fiend, Tarmogoyf, Tinder Wall, Deathmark in the Sideboard, and all sorts of questionable cards.

I started by putting Wall of Roots in the Werebear spot and Basking Rootwallas to block Lackey. However, Rootwallas died to Fanatics and Incinerators pretty terribly. I tested Tinder Wall in the Rootwalla's spot, and they block Lackey like champs. That made seven walls in the mainboard, so I took out the Wall of Roots, giving me some free spots.

Duress, as well as whiffing against Goblins, is not great against Meathooks, Thresh, or many of the other decks that can Brainstorm away the best cards and not care about Duress. The deck also has Birds, Tinder Walls, and Therapies in the one drop spot, so putting in Fiend was not a big deal with the mana curve. It is annoying to see StP when you Fiend, because you have to take it, but you can grab creatures against Goblins and Thresh and Meathooks.

That brings us to Goyf. Just a few posts up I said that Goyf probably does not belong in the deck, but that is not always true. With the mana curve adjusted as it is now, the two spot is much more open, and the deck can really use an early blocker and cheap fat later. Which, coincidentally, is exactly what Mr. Goyf does. 2/3 on turn two against most decks, and against everything except Goblins and Solidarity, it becomes a 4/5, 5/6, or even a 6/7 with ease. Don't be fooled with the low (nonexistant) number of Sorceries in RGBSA (BWish and Therapy end up RFG), and the lack of Instants and Artifacts....and only 4 Enchantments...he ends up huge.

21 Land / 61 cards. Yup.

The deck doesn't really have any amazing matchups, but it can beat most things. CRET belcher comes to mind as one terrible matchup, but you have four Wishes for Pyroclasm game one, and game two you get Engineered Plague to help out. You can't do much about Charbelcher, though. Against Goblins, Tinder Wall helps get to 2B for Engineered Plague, which has often been a problem in the past. Two Bone Shredders, the Death Mark, and your own Goyfs make the Thresh matchup much better.

I like the idea of builds with double Boneshredder. I am going to playtest one Big Game Hunter, instead of two Boneshredders. Goyf is usually 4 power, it doesnt need to be madnessed to work, blue skies doesnt have pro black, I can madness it out to combat Jitte trix.... it is pretty versatile. Let me know what you all think.

Big Game Hunter is good in some situations. He does own Goyf really good and against goblins he can wreck an attack. Imagine this:
Opponent declares attackers with Goblins. You madness a Big Game Hunter, striking down the Piledriver and taking out the Warchief.
The only thing I would worry about is the Mountainwalk the Goblins get because of the King and your mountains.

The fact that he can potentially be instant speed removal in a creature form that's also card advantage via Survival seems like it makes him a worthwhile call. I mean Survivaling for this guy, then pitching him to another activation, makes him read "Kill target creature, chump target other creature, search your deck for a creature" for GB. He's an awesome answer to Goyf, and can be a huge swing vs Goblins, which are really the two major creature threats out there right now.

He's also an answer to the Sutured Ghoul version of Cephalid Breakfast, one that they can't Therapy out of your hand, if you have a random creature in hand, Survival in play and 3 mana open, and they are not holding Force of Will they lose to BGH.

Speaking of Cephalid Breakfast, has anyone else been thinking about the inclusion of Mogg Fanatic as possibly being one of the stronger 1 drop options out there for Red splash Survival? I mean it was a solid answer to Lackey on the Draw to begin with but with a new combo bringing two more 1/1 must die targets into the picture, does he become worth 3-4 of?

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Speaking of Cephalid Breakfast, has anyone else been thinking about the inclusion of Mogg Fanatic as possibly being one of the stronger 1 drop options out there for Red splash Survival? I mean it was a solid answer to Lackey on the Draw to begin with but with a new combo bringing two more 1/1 must die targets into the picture, does he become worth 3-4 of?

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Motion seconded. In my RGbSA builds I've been using Mogg Fanatics for a month now. Being a good answer to Lackey, it's also a very good answer to Dark Confidants which just pop up in every deck that sports black. I've also found them to be stellar against the Dredge decks, taking out an Ichorid and removing all the Bridges from the yards at the same time. However, that match up is still pretty bad. I've been using Smothers as well since most people don't expect non-creature removal in Survival builds.

~Tog