My point wasn't on mulligans it was you don't base card choices/situations on the top card. It's bad deckbuilding.
That doesn't change the fact that it's simply not better at winning the game or digging than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness.
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My point wasn't on mulligans it was you don't base card choices/situations on the top card. It's bad deckbuilding.
That doesn't change the fact that it's simply not better at winning the game or digging than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness.
You're right. It's not better at winning the game than Brainstorm or Plunge into Darkness. In fact, it's not better at winning the game than anything.
That's not the point. Some other cards in your deck are better at winning the game, though. Wraith lets you see those cards more often.
Both Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness have card selection where as Wraith only sees the top card of your library. Card selection in TES is what wins games, what if the top card of your deck was a land and you needed Infernal? Which happened to be two cards lower. If we wanted random draw in TES we would be playing Meditates and Bargains. TES is tutor based combo and a random draw 1 isn't going to help you. TES is very unbalanced when it comes down to it, too much acceleration and very little tutors. This is why we don't play random draw X's besides Diminishing Returns. Cutting down on cards that find tutors is a horrible idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by outsideangel
EDIT: To be more clear, the chances of you getting what you need off of a simple cycle are slim, very slim.
Err...you do understand that this has no mana cost, right? For a combo deck that cares very little about its life total this is essentially free. As in, it requires no investment of resources.Quote:
Originally Posted by wastedlife
It's not draw. It's not a spell. All it does is let you play 4 less cards in your deck, at the cost of making mulligan decisions harder and Plunge slightly worse and sometimes 2 life.
Don't compare it to Brainstorm. Don't compare it to Plunge. In fact, don't compare it to anything. When you evaluate this card's strength, you do so by taking the weakest card in the deck, and comparing it to the next-to-weakest.
The question is, is gap in power between the weakest and next-to-weakest cards in the deck enough to warrant making your mulligans and Plunges and life total sometimes worse in order to close it?
outsideangel, what you fail to understand is that in an accel-heavy deck that relies on tutors to find the business, playing 56 cards doesn't really help that much. We need the acceleration as well as redundancy (something not provided by wrath) due to Diminishing Returns. What TES needs, if anything, is a better tutor than Plunge into Darkness. Unfortunately, Vampiric Tutor is banned, and Wizards doesn't appear to be ready to make another mistake like that again.
As far as only marginally hurting Plunge, to fully excercise the power of wrath, i.e. to play 56 cards, you need to pay 8 life. This conflicts with our ability to Plunge twice, while hurting our redundancy for the RFG 10 clause of Diminshing Returns. It even makes mulligans harder. This card seems tempting at first, but upon analysis (and I'm willing to bet, Testing) it is awful.
btw, the weakest card in the deck is Underdiscovered Paraise (can't be replaced due to affecting land percentage), followed up by Infernal Tutor. Neither of these cards are replaceable. Brainstorm and Plunge are both significantly more powerful than the worst two cards in the deck, which are themselves integral to the deck. Designing a combo deck by "power level" is pretty bad to begin with. If Long did that, they'd obv play Channel, but it isn't synergistic.
There are two means of evaluating this card,
The first is to replace card X, where X is a specific 4x in the deck, and the effects of the Street Wraith can be evaluated against that specific card, or replace cards A, B, C and D, where A, B, C and D are 1x of a 4x in the deck to manipulate the margins and create a 56 card deck that increases the odds of drawing the best cards.
The first means of evaluating the card leads us to replacing the worst card in the deck with Street Wraith, and I believe we can all agree that the worst card in this deck is Cabal Ritual. The question now becomes, does replacing Cabal Riutal and reducing the deck to 56 cards, increasing the statistical chances of drawing into a superior accelerant or a business card, worth losing 4 accelerants?
[Place holder, I don't have the time for the statistics on this, but I suspect cutting Cabal Ritual to increase the chances of drawing the rest of the cards in the deck is the best choice.]
The second means of evaluating the card leads to replacing the following, 1xInfernal Tutor, 1xPlunge into Darkness, 2xCabal Ritual. To explain the choices, a 56 card deck permits the number of cards in each slot to be decreased, so I trimmed the worst cards in each slot. 1xInfernal Tutor goes to the SB, reducing the tutors to 7 and increasing the power of Burning Wish, 1xPlunge into Darkness is removed to decrease the number of 2cc cards and manipulation (don't cut Brainstorm), 2xCabal Ritual are removed to decrease the number of Rituals, even tho' it isn't proportional to the other slots; Right of Flame is an option, to put it in the SB for Burning Wish, but we've argued that before.
The second means of evaluating the card is the most difficult, and this is the one that is going to lead to the most of "if Street Wraith were cards A,B,C or D" counter arguments as well as botched mulligans.
Right now, I'm testing the first means of evaluating the card, since it's the simplest to do and the easiest to argue.
It seems promising, Cycling into another accelerant, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal or Right of Flame is almost always better than the Cabal Ritual, and Cycling into another land isn't bad if you don't already have two, tho' Cycling into a second Chrome Mox can suck.
Cycling into a Xantid Swarm is never bad, IMO. Brainstorm and Plunge into Darkness means the deck is going to have to cast either one of them to find another accelerant, but that's not a bad thing. Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish can be goood/bad, Infernal Tutor has to have an accelerant in hand, and Burning Wish has to be able to tutor for an accelerant, otherwise it's just a business card. About the worst cards the deck can get are Tendrils of Agony and Ill Gotten Gains; Diminishing Returns is at least hard castable, and Empty the Warrens completely changes the nature of your hand.
The card doesn't seem that bad since there are two clear "worst cards" in the deck and one is more of a necessary evil than the other.
I'm not advocating that the card should/shouldn't be added, but dismissing it out right is a mistake in my opinion.
I popped into this thread really hoping no one was suggesting Street Wraith in this deck. Im so disappointed. You cant have this card in your deck with Confidant, if your answer is thats what you'd side out, why bother with it in the first place..
At least Urza's Bauble counted for Storm. Street Wraith is godawful here.
Because Dark Confidant isn't relevant until game 2, and Cabal Ritual gets SBed out for Dark Confidant in a lot of match ups, and Dark Confidant isn't SBed in against all match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by bane_of_the_living
@MattHH.
Baubles draw a card on the following turn, Wraith draws the card on the same turn, and the card Wraith draws adds storm and mana. I don't mind cutting Cabal Rituals at all, mulliganing hasn't been a problem and the life loss isn't a significant factor so far.
I knee jerked at the card to, but once I learned what to expect, it turned out to be better than I thought.
I agree with BreathWeapon on the fact that the cycler could easily be included as a 4-of (even in place of cabal ritual) and switched out for the confidant in approriate match ups.
Even the land-cycler could warrant inclusion (for obvious deck-thinning and card quality reasons).
Unfortunately as already stated they would really mess with mulligan decisions and definitely screw brainstorm.
And while i feel that a bit of gambit with the opening hand is acceptable, the fact that Brainstorm will no longer be an Ancestral Recall might be a little too much.
Is the cycler an auto-include? No.
Is it worth testing? Yes.
Is the land cycler worth testing too? Yes.
I think this cycler is very good because in the WORST case, instead of drawing the worst card in the deck you will cycle into the second worst card in the deck, which is already good.I do think we might want to consider running 3 because having 2 in your hand can be a significant lifeloss together with city and plunge, against aggro. I think we need at least 12 tutors so I wouldn't take out plunge and definitly not infernal tutor, but 1 chrome mox, 1 land (running 10 land), and 1 empty the warrens(move to SB). I don't like having more than 1 maindeck empty the warrens, because I play more and more people who know the deck and bring in hate against it, especialy engineered explosives and pyroclasm. The chrome moxes I hate having 2 of so I was already playing with less, and running 10 land on essentially 57 cards, where I heard 10 on 60 was already OK, should be fine.
I also wonder how wizards could print such a powerfull card, I mean burn should run it as a four of, ******** probably(creates ********), any combo deck that doesn't care about aggro, and in vintage I think any deck would run it.:confused: Am I missing something? This just seems too good.
This is still going to suffer the main problem of Bauble, which is that it affects mulligan decisions in a bad way.
I always felt that the main problem with Bauble was that it doesn't get you the card until the next turn. This gets it to you immediately, and at Instant speed no less.
I'll continue winning and let everyone else decide on if the card is playable or not. I've played a few matches here and there with the card in it and dislike it. To each his own, hopefully I'll see some of you in the winner's bracket.
Ughhh...Are you serious dude?...lol...Please tell me your kidding and that you don't think that this card is really that "broken"...I mean, yea it thins the deck but really how good is that?...I mean SERIOUSLY...I would much rather leave in the three cards you named because they help keep the consistency of the deck...you even said it yourself up there...it would be a lot of life loss w/city and plunge...but really, the card essentially reads "replace this card with the top card of your deck and loose two life". The only deck I can really see it shining in is Ichorid...Most decks should be designed/built solid enough where they don't have random 3-4 cards that just suck and should be replaced with a "free" draw 1 spell and if they do, than I guess that deck isn't all that good in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by matelml
One of the best cards for combo in Time Spiral has just been spoiled,
Magus of the Future 2UUU
Creature-Human Wizard
Play with the top card of your library revealed.
You may play the top card of your library.
2/3
It's time to start considering Living Wish in TES,
1) Minion of the Wastes, for 1G and 3BBB, the deck gains an unrestricted Tinker->Colossus.
2) Magus of the Future, for 1G and 2UUU, the deck gains Future Sight. Altho' at the cost of UUU the deck has to use LED in order to cast it, it either allows the deck to win now or win after it's untap step.
3) Magus of the Jar, for 1G and 3UU, the deck gains an unrestricted Memory Jar. Unlike Magus of the Future, the deck doesn't have to use LED in order to cast it, and unlike Diminishing Returns the opponent doesn't get to keep his new hand.
Other notable considerations, the deck can tutor for creatures or lands removed via Plunge into Darkness, Xantid Swarm, golden lands,Tomb of Urami or Cabal Pit etc. or it can tutor for cards removed via Swords to Plowshares, Xantid Swarm, as well as the SB Dark Confidants.
Some possible inclusions in the SB,
Xantid Swarm, if the MD can spare it.
Mesmeric Fiend, as a pseudo Xantid Swarm if the MD can't spare it.
Ancient Tomb, 2 mana and a land drop.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer, cost effective threat or a Wrath of God.
Fire Imp, removal and Goblin chump blocker.
Woodripper, costly mass removal.
Goblin Tinkerer, cheap mass removal
Gorilla Shaman, cheaper mass removal
Indrik Stomphowler, costly threat and removal.
Uktabi Orangutang, cheap removal and Goblin chump blocker
Tin-Street Hooligan, cheaper removal and Goblin chum blocker.
Elvish Scrapper, cheap removal with Summoning Sickness
Storm Entity, cheap threat that has synergy with storm
Jotun Grunt, cheap threat that hoses Threshold.
Having a tutor that can find this format's equivalent of restricted bombs in Vintage with unrestricted Lion's Eye Diamond that also adds more utility to the SB and redundancy to the MD seems like it should be considered.I realize that it would require changes to the MD and SB, and I'm not certain what those changes should be, but it's bound to be worth investigating at the least.
I think it's very good and am going to play this card to prove it's good.
I changed my mind about taking one plunge out, look at this:
Some percentages:
Now playing 12/60 tutors=0.2
-1 plunge, chrome mox, land, empty the warrens:11/56 tutors=0.1964, which is almost no difference.
amount of 0 mana manasources: without:19/60=0.3166, with:17/56=0.3035, again almost no diference (the amount of land is even less difference:11/60=0.183, 10/56=0.1780.
I even found situations it is good with brainstorm. If you only have black mana, a LED and use brainstorm and brainstorm into wraith, wish, swarm, then you can put the wish on top, cycle and in response crack the led for red. Situations like this happened to me several times in testing.I see mulliganing becomes more difficult, but not impossible. When you would only keep the hand if you would draw a certain card you mull, except if the chances of drawing thet card or something similar are more than 50%.
Also I think living wish is a horrible idea because all those things you mentioned cost way too much mana and can only be done when you have a LED and a really good hand.
I mean no offense with my posts and respect all your opinions. Also I might look like a noob because of my post count, but I have been reading this thread since the beginning.
I know the idea is radical, but it's no more radical then when we suggested using Burning Wish in combo last summer; Burning Wish is more synergistic, but Living Wish is more powerful.
Living Wish for Minion of the Waste is the same amount of mana as Infernal Tutor for the Ill Gotten Gains chains, and it can be cast over the course of two turns.
Living Wish for Magus of the Jar is appr. the same amount of mana as Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns, and it can be cast over the course of two turns, and unlike Diminishing Returns there's no chance of it failing or backfiring.
Living Wish + LED for Magus of the Future is a Dark Confidant on steroids.
Xantid Swarm + Living Wish is the equivalent of having a counter for a Swords to Plowshares in hand.
Living Wish for Dark Confidant is a tutor for Dark Confidant that doesn't cost life.
Living Wish for Ancient Tomb is +1 storm and another land drop.
Living Wish for Storm Entity is extremely good after an accelerant heavy hand or a Draw7.
I'm not advocating that the deck should use four of them, but there are a lot of cards that could be cut to increase the number of tutors in the deck, from the second Tendrils of Agony, second and/or third Empty the Warrens, fourth Infernal Tutor, fourth Chrome Mox, fourth Cabal Ritual or the MD Diminshing Returns.
I have no idea about what to do with the SB, I suggest just adding everything you want and cut what you don't need as you fail to wish for it in testing.
Just start with Living Wish in hand and goldfish with it for awhile, the card turns more tricks than Burning Wishing in this deck.
Edit: When Street Wraith is in the SB it lets Living Wish Cycle.
All of those plans are basically worse than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens or Tendrils.
Magus of Jar - Takes another turn to work.
Magus of Future Sight - Way more difficult to set up (3GUUU) than Returns, stalls on land.
Dark Confidant - Does nothing to help win that turn
Ancient Tomb - Since when is colorless mana an issue?
Xantid Swarm - Best when dropped turn 1. Wish as a counter for StP is a pretty weak point of debate, too. Why not run Pull From Eternity while we're at it?
I agree, but it isn't a question of removing Burning Wish for Living Wish, it's a question of whether or not the card is functional in the MD and whether or not it can replace mediocre cards with out butchering the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Nightmare
Magus of the Jar-Untapping with Memory Jar isn't a bad thing, and the opponent doesn't get to keep his new hand.
Magus of the Future-It requires one more mana and LED where Diminishing Returns doesn't, but Future Sight remains on the board and doesn't give the opponent a new hand.
There are going to be one to two lands in hand, possibly a land off of Brainstorm and lands RFGed via Plunge into Darkness.
I'm not certain how effective it is at the moment, but if Keeper could be modified to use Future Sight and Burning Wish for a combo kill, I imagine TES isn't that bad off as it is.
Dark Confidant-It doesn't have to, if you're wishing for Dark Confidant, you're planning to win over the long haul.
Ancient Tomb-2 colorless mana reduces the amount of colored mana that has to be used when casting cards with colorless mana requirements, if that isn't enough, it can wish for an RFGed golden land after Plunge into Darkness or you can add another land to the SB.
I agree that Xantid Swarm should be MD, but it's not as if having synergy with Xantid Swarm after a Swords to Plowshares and Plunge into Darkness is a bad thing.
I actually think Living Wish for Minion of the Wastes is stronger than Burning Wish for Empty the Warrens, considering the amount of hate aggro-control SBs in against Empty the Warrens and the chances that they'll SB out Swords to Plowshares.
Just dismissing the card is a bad idea, it offers TES non-LED based bombs as well as LED based bombs to consider. Memory Jar and Future Sight have been broken in combo before, Minion of the Wastes is under rated, wishing for Dark Confidant or a land drop offers a small ball approach and at worst it Cycles with Street Wraith.
I realize the deck and the SB would have to be retooled, but just for now, starting with one in the first seven or eight cards and an unlimited SB is useful for testing the merits of the card, the rest can be figured out later.
Dismissing it out right is a mistake, let's at least be certain it isn't worth it.