Have you guys thought about cutting Watchwolfs for Treetop Villages? Betters your mana base without dropping the threat density (it may slow you down a little in some games).
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Have you guys thought about cutting Watchwolfs for Treetop Villages? Betters your mana base without dropping the threat density (it may slow you down a little in some games).
Don't think it's a good choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
You can only play one land a turn, it comes into play tapped and takes away 2 mana to activate wich you could use for other (instant or permanent) threats.
I can understand how it shifts how you play the deck a little and that would be hard to adapt to on a purely intellectual level (without having played the deck extensively).
In any case, your curve is really imbalanced, so the CIPT issue won't come up too much. You have to remember that you're replacing a non-land card with a land, so it can just be the 3rd or 4th turn land drop you're missing.
Other than Cursed Scroll, you don't need tons and tons of mana after turn 3 or 4. If you think you do (you don't), let me suggest Radha, Heir to Keld.
I just dont get why you would cut a nice 3/3 critter for something that slows the deck down and costs mana to even use.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
I am one of those guys that thinks RGW zoo is supposed to be fast.
And offcourse I don't need tons of mana, 2 lands in play shoudl be enough for the deck to rock.
Just checked on www.deckcheck.net, not one Treetop Village seen there in the played zoo decks.
Not that deckcheck is the holy grail, but it says alot about Treetop Village.
I found 70 decklists running Villages. Here's a beatz list from a couple months ago: http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22453
Looks like his meta had a lot of land destruction.
Watchwolf hurts your curve more than Treetop Village (especially when it's the weakest creature in your deck--slow, not big enough, susceptible to mass removal).
Please note, that that deck is R/G only, and that this is the RGW Zoo thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
And also note that, Treetop Village sucks balls in this deck.
That's just a completely different deck? :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
I was pointing out his statement was blatantly untrue. The linked list is not a very good list for many other reasons.
R/G/W zoo only became better than R/G with the printing of Wild Nacatl (Wooly Thoctar didn't hurt, either).
Baileyarch:
In which matchups does Treetop Village "suck balls" in this deck?
This'll sound snooty, but really, a better knowledge of the history of your deck will give you a better sense of what is possible with it.
For one, it leaves you open to Wasteland. The tempo loss from just that alone is crippling.
You always want to make a turn 1 2/2 or 2/3 or 3/3.
And the fact that your land can be hit by a removal spell is just stupid. It doesn't help towards the required forest, plains, mountain for Kird Ape or Wild Nacatyl. You can't fetch it.
And it doesn't even help late game either, like Cursed Scroll.
Shit if those aren't reasons enough to run it then idk what else is. This is Zoo not Rock.
Maybe this will sound snooty, but saying i don't know my deck history to justify a bad card for a good deck just doesn't make sense.
But hey, once again, maybe i'm the asshole here:laugh:
P.S.-This deck didn't become three colors because Thoctar or Nacatyl my friend. They are broken yes, but there is plenty of good other white combinations to add another color too.
Yea. I agree. It is far too slow. Not to mention, Im fairly certain you cant equip a Jitte on a village. I could be wrong though, I havent ever played a man land deck enough to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Having your land come into play tapped is bad in this deck. Its bad in just about any competitive deck, especially one that thrives on tempo. Lets say for example you top deck it turn 3. Its your 4th land (a very nice land to have in play, while not crucial it helps). So you play it, its tapped. They top deck a wasteland and bam, its gone before you can use it. If that were any other land, you could have used it before it died. Trust me on this (I play against a lot of LD in my meta) it helps to be able to tap it first turn out. It keeps your critters coming even with what little land I can keep in play.
And for as long as Ive played Zoo, its been RGW. And it will most likely stay that way. Even back when Savannah Lions and Isamaru were the main threats, I had white in the list.
The deck that took 4th in that tournament (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=22450) is a much, much, much better zoo build.
And look! No manlands...
@jimmerz213: Yeah i took a look at that list when i saw it get posted. It's very straightforward FireBlast, Lavamancer, goldfish Zoo-ish deck.
It reminds me of Goyf Sligh splash white. It runs alot of burn. And like i've always been afraid of PoP bc it would usually deal me like 8 damage.
The card just doesn't seem right for Zoo.
You can equip jitte on a village, however at the end of turn it becomes unequipped. So yeah, if you have five lands in play its a good combination...Right.
I don't think price is right for zoo either. It just hurts you too much, while providing no room to remove something.
Thats what I figured. That really makes it a lot weaker than watchwolf right there. Jitte is a powerhouse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
One last point about Treetop Village. I'm not suggesting you replace lands you are already running with it. I'm suggesting you play 2 of them instead of Watchwolf (or some random creatures). So, when you play them, if they soak up a Wasteland or get Swordsed or removed some other way, you're protecting your other creatures or your mana base. Treetop Village will never make you miss a land drop. Saying that it makes your creature base vulnerable to Wasteland is your best criticism.
I think the difference in our reactions to cards is mostly in approach. I'm comfortable playing R/G/w as a permissionless aggro control deck. Sounds like you guys are trying to play it straight aggro with a few utility cards. The lists are similar but the strategy is probably very different.
I don't think Jitte is very good game 1 in a lot of matchups (I like it a lot out of the board). Either they will have a removal card (in which case Jitte costs 6 to have any impact) or Jitte will end up as just another piece of the clock (ramping creatures will make you faster). Rancor is much better in the typical case (faster, cheaper, supplies its own evasion).
But I'm going to shut up and let you guys have your aggro thread back.
Thank you, and please don't ever link me to some crappy decklist that is running Emperor Crocodile...ever again. This is not the source for lameacy. No Treetop. No Crocodiles. Just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by waSP
Extended zoo usually run 4-5 color to play Dark confidant as a card to general card advantage, they also used to play Vindicate (which is a good removal against CB). Black also gives discards as an additional tool against combo deck.
Perhaps it has been discussed already, but i just wanted to say this :)
I have always liked Burning-Tree Shaman but I can't think of anything it is good against besides Top. Not saying it should be included just discussing the card.
Be fair now. He never recommended Crocodile. And Treetop isn't a bad card per se. It just doesn't fit this deck's play style at all, but a slower deck it would work in very well. So need to be so hard on the suggestion. I think the better question is, why would anyone ever opt to play Treetop Village instead of Nantuko Monastery in a deck that could support it.Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
P.S: No, manlands shouldn't be in this deck. I'm just wondering why someone would consider Treetop Village before Nantuko Monastry in the first place.
Ok the manland discussion dies in 3....2....1....
Ok so yeah. I played this deck at a local tournament the other night, and ending up going 2-3. I beat Survival and Dreadstill, only to lose to Dreadstill(Counterbalance) twice after that, and then Dredge.
The only modifications to my deck are -2 FoD, +2 Gaddock Teeg. My meta is heavy blue and when he resolved it REALLY helped.
I was just so pissed bc Counterbalance just BEATS this deck without Shusher. And that's how i lost 4 games in a row. I've been tinkering with some ways to work around Counterbalance, and all i can really think of is, A) Run Grip in the maindeck, which is clunky and SOMETIMES dead, or B) Run Shusher in the maindeck which is just a bear in some matchups.
This deck just needs a way to beat that two card combo...
Well, I would just run 4 Shusher and 3-4 Grip in the sideboard.
One maindeck option you left off is Tin-Street Holligan. It's not mana intensive but it takes out lots of artifacts, not just Top, but Dreadnoughts, stuff in affinity, Crucibles etc.
How does Tin-Street Holligan get rid of top? All they do is tap it in response to put it back on top of their library. That is the main reason why I run Kgrips.
I'm main decking 2 teeg and 2 GRIP. Gotta have the grip;it almost always helps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Per your previous comment about it not being 3 colors for thoctar or Nacatl.
I disagree. NACATL is exactly why this deck is RGW. that and swords. But the Nacatl is the driver.
This deck archetype started as RG beats (Goyf Sligh.) The addition of a 3/3 for 1 when shards was printed is what morphed Goyf-sligh into a RGW zoo variant. Once you've added white, swords comes in of course. Teeg, Watch-Wolf, FoD, and Thoctar are all optional cards subject to change. Some lists even run 3x swords. But you ALWAYS have 4x Nacatl.
This deck has almost always had Savannah Lions, Goblin Legionnaire, Swords to Plowshares, etc.
Nacatyl and Thoctar are REALLY good, but i don't think that's why this deck is GRW.
I guess I never noticed a deck with legionnaire and lions because that sounds totally old school and not very good. This particular build developed recently, I imagine most people who threw this together, did so after reading Nacatl. At least that's why I built it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Ravnica helped alot with Watchwolf and Lightning Helix too.
The deck has been around for a while, it's just that Nacatyl made it much better.
Before this gets out of hand. You guys are both right.
1.) R/G/W Zoo as a deck has been around since Savannah Lion first got printed. The idea of playing the best weenies and removal (StP) that white has, the best beaters and pump that green has, and the best burn that red has predates Vintage as a format. And it's been called Zoo for most of that time as well. So saying that R/G/W Zoo wasn't around before Nacatl is patently false.
2.) R/G/W Zoo hadn't been considered viable by most people and hadn't been popular in Legacy till Wild Nacatl got printed. Yes people including I'm guess Loxodan did play it for Lion/Isamaru, Helix, StP, Watchwolf and a few other goodies. And they probably did quite well with it and thus might understand the deck better than the newcomers. But most aggro players stuck with either Red Sligh, 9 Land Stompy or the combination of the two, R/G Aggro.
3.) Nacatl (and Thoctor) gave the deck that critical push that made all the R/G Aggro players go, hey, splashing white is definately worth it now. It gave the deck the push it needed (both in terms of the new threats and in terms of new players) to be a viable contendor in the format. If Zoo winds up as a deck to beat someday (and it very well may), it's going to be because of Wild Nacatl and the new players that card brought along with it.
Well said.
I didn't know RGW was seriously played that long ago. I always thought 3 color decks were iffy until fetch lands arrived.
Anyway, I was someone who saw Nacatl and thought, "This is better than 8 kird apes!" And took RG beats and added white for the Cat and StP.
Seriously pre-Goyf this deck dominated.
Counterbalance has been a problem since it was printed. But meh.
The creatures were just so good, plus Goyf, Stalker, Dreadnaught, none of those were around. Meaning, hey we can burn everything!
But yeah i've loved the deck since Rav block came around.
I remember playin this deck back when Lions Eye Diamond had 0 use in any format/deck/binder anywhere.
Then storm happened....
But yea, pre-ravnica block was a lot of fun. Lions, wolves, apes, boas. Then more (better) wolves once ravnica dropped. Its been all uphill from there :)
Yeah slowly the deck comes back! I think WotC do a good job in printing good creatures every set. Now with Nacatl the deck looks viable again : ).
I wish they print some good anti combo dude like Magus of the Piallar!
Forget pre-goyf, you guys remember pre-fetchlands? The good old days...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Back when burn actually used to be able to kill anything and red was the second best color in magic (instead of the worst).
I always wondered why you Zoo players insisted on splashing white for StP and Savannah Lions when Chain Lightning and Jackal Pup were everybit as good back then (this was before Rav's fetchlands (and Helix) showed up and made manabases twice as ridiculous). :tongue:
I'd be more than happy for you to come to Georgia to play magic in an actual competitive metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Hammer
MWS just isn't my thing, i mean it's just not magic. The shuffler sucks compared to my awesome pile shuffling. And without the picture pack i can't see all my foil and textless cards either. So sure i'll be sure to give you directions to SuperGames one day.
And how is Goblin Legionnaire not good again? Yes he is mana intensive(like that FoD you and everyone else likes), but his utility makes him a fine creature. He beats and saves Goyfs and finishes low life opponents and protects you. If that's bad, then ok that's why you haven't won anything with Zoo.
But on to another topic. I was thinking about my two open slots in the maindeck, and an unusual creature came to mind. River Boa. It blocks almost anything all day, Islandwalks those pesky blue decks, and can hold a Jitte all day.
I know he would kinda be weak for the deck, but i was just thinking about tinkering with him. Thoughts? :cool:
Yeah MWS's shuffler does suck. But no I'm not driving 300 miles just to play you. My meta is plenty competitive as it is thank you. If you want, PM me and I'll send you directions and you can drive up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
For the record, I stopped liking FoD a while ago. It seemed awesome when it first came out. But it just costs too much mana. It sounds like most of the other people here came to the same conclusion. Which is the same reason why IMO Legionaire sucks. Too much mana for too little effect.
Can't comment on Boa. It's been years since I played him in anything. On one hand, Islandwalk seems better than flying these days, but on the other hand, he's a pretty weak creature though.
Bad Idea...Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
Great Idea... River Boa is amazing.. I've done some play testing with him in other decks, and he a serious problem for anything running blue.. I don't even know why I didn't think of adding him to zoo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Loxodon Baileyarch
I have been thinking about a new SB but I really am just not sure that cutting Pyroclasm is such a hot idea. In my meta you have to have these cards:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Gaddock Teeg
some number of Ancient Grudge
3x Vexing Shusher
Running just 2 Needle sounds lame, as it does with the other cards mentioned. But, with this deck having its problems with Counterbalance, maybe KGrip should come in the SB as a 2-of. Possibly something like:
3x Needle
3x Teeg
3x Shusher
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Pyroclasm
Baileyarch just got rocked by Counterbalance on wednesday, so maybe it is time to rethink the SB in our meta. Because of all the people playing Dreadnoughts and Shackles in our meta Ancient Grudge can't be cut entirely. But since KGrip is also artifact removal it could fill one slot from Grudge, and this actually gives the deck access to enchantment removal (probably not necessary, but it can't hurt). And instead of running just Shusher as an answer to Counterbalance, you now have 2 more, for a total of 5 answers. Should help quite a bit.
But with just 2 Pyroclasm in the board it got me thinking, since the Goblins, Elves, and Merfolk matchups are already just spectacular for us anyway, maybe cut those and put in some more storm combo hate? I am not sure which I like better, Thorn of Amethyst or Orim's Chant. For a deck as aggressive as Zoo, probably Thorn, since with Chant you have to keep mana open, and with Thorn you just drop it then keep kicking ass. In a deck that runs just 21 lands I don't think you would be able to pull off Sphere of Resistance (and it would slow you down quite a bit). I don't like the Cannonist since it is easier to deal with. Thorn just stops everything.
Regarding those 2 open slots in the deck. I am testing out Plant Elemental from Portal as a 1-of. 1G, 3/4, when it comes into play sac a forest or sac it. At first it would look like the tempo loss would kill you, but not really. 21 lands is key, and as a 1-of it most likely won't be in your opening hand. The card is fucking awesome from what I have tested out (and it helps against Dredge). The other open slot I have just been using a single Figure of Destiny since I recently cut 1 Isamaru for Path to Exhile. Here is my updated list:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Kird Ape
4x Wild Nactal
4x Watchwolf
2x Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2x Woolly Thoctar
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Lightning Helix
4x Lighting Bolt
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Jitte
1x Path to Exhile
1x Plant Elemental
1x Figure of Destiny
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Windswept Heath
3x Taiga
3x Plateau
3x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Mountain
1x Plains
1x Forest
Sideboard
3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Gaddock Teeg
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Krosan Grip
2x Thorn of Amethyst
Why not play ethersworn cannonist over Thorn of Amethyst? It's a beat stick and stops ANT. Alongside Teeg, you win.
3x Pithing Needle
3x Vexing Shusher
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Krosan Grip
^ This is what I'd do.
I see grudge being a total bomb against Stax and Faerie stompy, but a little lackluster in other match-ups. Grip on the other hand, is always good.
Top 4-ed at the GPT yesterday.
Round 1 Vs Dreadstill, I win 2-0
Round 2 MasterShake and I intentional draw
Round 3 Vs It's The Fear, I lose 0-2
Round 4 Vs R/b Vial Goblins, I win 2-1
Top 8 VS It's The Fear, I win 2-0
Top 4 VS MasterShake playing U/W Landstill. He wins the die roll...and the Match 1-2. During game one some spectators were complaining that I wouldn't just concede under Academy Ruins recurring EE. I gently explained to them that my opponent wasn't putting any pressure on me whatsoever so I was using the opportunity to see as much of his deck as possible. Doesn't everyone do that when the round isn't timed?
Reflections: I was running StP out of the board and liked it there, actually, I squeezed one into the main deck just for the hell of it. The only time I was really glad to have StP was against Gobbos when I pulled Chain Lightning and popped in the StPs. Jitte would have been better but you guys know I run Rancor instead, however, I kept finding myself wishing Rancor was just another Lightning bolt. Sideboard still needs Needles
So, I orginally did think that thorn would be better than the creatures because it slows down their cantripping and makes them wait a turn to play bounce, however I now believe that teeg + canonist is the right way to go. I say both because just devoting 4 slots to combo is worthless. You need more than that to get an answer consistently, and if you get multiples it starts to make it very hard for them to answer. Anyway, the biggest reason why they're better than thorn is because they're creatures. That means they can help you win faster, but more importantly can't be answered by duress.
Orim's chant is definitely a bad card against combo in this deck. First, you have to keep mana open, and second they can get it with duress, and third is that if you use it to stop them, you've used up your answer and they might be able to go off next turn.
What is your list my friend? I would love to see it :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by umbowta
Very true. I didn't even think about Duress. Thorn can actually be Duressed out of your hand before the combo. Cannonist probably is the best combo hate for Zoo. Good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
@umbowta: A complete list and SB, as well as some comments on the matchups would be appreciated. What kinds of cards you played against that you didn't expect. Any changes you would make? That kind of stuff.