nodahero, I like your list but it seems to be lacking threats/kill conditions.
Does this turn out to be true in testing ?
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nodahero, I like your list but it seems to be lacking threats/kill conditions.
Does this turn out to be true in testing ?
The 4th color is for Explosives is unnecessary, since the most threatening cards there are planeswalkers, which see only see play in the "mirror". Plus, they can be countered, legend ruled (Elspeth), and burned in your version.Quote:
Originally Posted by nodahero
Decree and Dragon serve different purposes. Dragon is your 24th land, then a win-condition. Decree is an amazing win-condition, and a blowout against counterbalance thresh, and the mirror. It's also fanatastic at stabilizing against tribal decks like goblins, where most of their dorks are 2/2's or 1/1's.Quote:
It may be my lack of landstill experience but... Decree dosn't really seem that impressive no matter how you use it. Is their an ideal scenario for it?...Is it possible that Eternal Dragon may be slightly better in that slot?
While on paper the deck looks lacking in win conditions in actuality it does not. The existence of the three walkers, the manland, the EDragon/Decree/Trinket Mage, and Crucible do actually provide sufficient power to pull out the win. Depending on the meta you can actually swap the two compulsive back for Jace to provide slower card advantage and yet another 2 win conditions but with the expected meta for worlds being more zoo based the quick burst in card advantage seems much more beneficial.
My issue with the Decree is that it often feels like it does not provide sufficient return on investment in the early game and in the late game feels like win more. My other idea for that slot was to run Trinket Mage due to his body and his ability to fetch out a benefical artifact in both the control and aggro matchup, Top and EE respectively.
I will go try and get in some testing for that final "win con" slot in a little bit and report back prior to worlds.
I just want to keep the list updated. Here's what I'm currently running:
// Lands
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Tolaria West
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
2 Polluted Delta
More consistance on land drop for a better early/mid game.Quote:
-1 Tolaria West
+1 Polluted Delta
// Spells
1 Decree of Justice
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Cunning Wish
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Fire/Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Nev Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Humility
1 Sensei's Divining Top
I always liked forbid, but the current meta is so fast (Elves Survival, Zoo, Merfolk, Tempo Thresh) that I need the 2cc CS. At my 4th land drop, I would like to reset the board, that's why I'll give Nev Disk and Humility a try (combined with E. Tutor). That makes me able to go -1 CoW and +1 Top.Quote:
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Jace Beleren
-2 Forbid
+1 Sensei's Divining Top
+1 Nev Disk
+1 Humility
+2 Counterspell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Meddling Mage
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Negate
Cut the conditionals Wish board to something really effective: 2x Goldmane, something really versatile: E. Tutor (which is a better answer to Progenitus deck (E.tutor into Humility), and +1 weapon against Storm in the form of negate.Quote:
-1 Pyroblast
-1 Hydroblast
-1 Wing Shards
-1 Misdirection
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Negate
+2 Ajani Goldmane
It's nice to see some of you guys trying out the deck and tweaking it.
P-M
Lol Enigma, your latest list is almost like landstill, with the Standstills changed for Ancestral Vision and the Brainstorm changed for Fire//Ice and Top changed for Jace. I believe your latest list plays like Landstill except that your earlier plays are more fragile without Brainstorm/Top but you have better mid/late game with the walkers and Visions.
I'm just curious as to if you had any problems stabilizing in the early game. If not, it may because your meta is slower (aggro-control) and this is the deck that's better in that meta. If your meta is faster, then I think Landstill gives a much more stable metagame.
The list is almost like Landstill now, with the exception that you play Visions over Standstill and run no Brainstorms. I like the card advantage of this deck, but I don't like how those spells are easily countered by Counterbalance (Vision is more easily countered by Balance than Standstill). Fire//Ice is prone to Snares so it's not that great a removal. It kills bobs and lavamancers, but doesn't hurt cats and goyfs.
People : To those asking for results, this deck made TOP 2 yesterday at a 33 persons Timewalk Tournament in Montreal. I do not have the list, but I believe the deck co-creator will post it shortly.
I couldn't see him play, because I was too busy playing (You know, Landstill isn't exactly a fast deck, although I believe I play very fast. I've played even faster than aggro decks in certain matches). But from what I've heard here and there, the deck did fairly well, even against his worth matchups (Canadian ThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh for example. I believe my MU is also slightly bad. If they disrupt too quickly too early, there are little chances of recovering. If you have more lands than they can destroy, you should win :D I believe he has the same gameplan as me against the Canadian deck)
Too bad we didn't play the top 2, but 8 hours of Magic were getting us all tired. I haven't had the chance of playing against Ultimate Walker yet. He believes he has a favourable match against me. How strange, because I believed the same :P
anyway great tournamnet!
Robert
Here's the last list Omega's talking about:
Piloted by Yan Lampron for Goyf-walk tournament:
Soon to be on deckcheck.net
4 Force of will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Helix
2 Forbid
2 Humility
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Jace Beleren
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Spell Snare
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Decree of justice
1 Ajani Vengeant
2 Cunning Wish
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
1 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
SB:
4 Meddling Mage
1 Misdirection
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the field
1 Extirpate
2 Relic of progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Pyroblast
1 Blue elemental blast
1 Path to exile
1 Volcanic Fallout
Major difference:
+4 Helix (thanks to Klaus)
+2 Humility
+1 Plateau (MVP land of the day)
-4 Fire/Ice
-1 E.E
-1 Tolaria West
And the 61st card
SB: +1 Volcanic Fallout (it made him win an unwinnable game against Goblins on top4 by killing 7 Goblins)
-1 Wing shards
Default: Low blue card count
Advantage: Wreck the aggro MU.
P-M
I have some good news and some bad news.
The bad news is I did not play ultimate walker at worlds due primarily to my inability to settle on a solid sideboard. The good news is I did take 23 overall out of 182 players using my custom built Loam list. If you guys have any questions about my current list I am still also deciding on my win con... Decree just seems to poor without Standstill in play...
Probably a stupid question, but has anyone considered running solitary confinement? In conjunction with Jace you wouldn't be in any danger of running out of cards to discard, but I guess you'd be giving the opponent too much card advantage?
EDIT: Nevermind, stupid idea, I realised this doesn't prevent your planeswalkers being damaged/killed, since they'd opt to attack the planeswalker instead of you.
I played various gimpy versions of this deck in a few of the legacy tournies at Gen Con. The list above seems a lot better than what I ran and I am switching over. I agree though that decree seemed a little weak over the weekend.
What about swapping decree with a single copy of Vedalken Shackles? The deck may not run enough islands for it, but nearly each round I felt like a copy could have swung the game. Also note that I play 2 copies of EE and one enlightened tutor, so the shackles would be fetchable. Has anyone else considered shackles?
Thx
Would Moat be a good fit in this deck instead of a second Humility?
Yes and no, me and Yan Lampron just taklked about putting Moat in the deck...instead of what?? Tetsing will tell us!! Until next week, good testing everyone!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
Most creatures do not have flying in Legacy, so we can say Moat is about the same as Humility.
But Moat stops you from attacking too, forcing you to rely solely on the Elspeth. A smart opponent will see that too
Robert
I agree. Moat makes Decree useless, and Elspeth/AV your only real wincons.
Against landstill that could be a big problem. They run more hard counters and vindicate. Granted we have forbid cheese in our favor in the long game, but I still think moat would hurt more than it helps. Humility blasts flyers too, so it negates any random jank.
Decree can win over moat, you just have to do yourself the injustice of hardcasting it.
Point taken, but yuck. I'll take Elspeth anyday :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabas
I played this list to a 13th place finish in a field of 60-70 people.
NY Walker
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Spell Snare
2 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinket Mage
2 Compulsive Research
1 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wrath of God
4 Force of Will
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tolaria West
2 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Ancient Den
1 Island
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pulse of the Fields
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
I beat Elf Surivival, Bant Countertop, Canadian Threshold, and Grb Survival. I drew with Solidarity, which was very lucky, and Goblins, which was played by an unusually slow player. I lost to a 5 color, 64 card awful counterbalance deck.
The deck ran very smoothly, and I didn't miss the Decrees at all.
You might be able to watch a couple of my matches in the coverage thread for the August 22 Vestal tournament.
legacyplayer0 do you think that threads is really made a difference? did you ever wish it was a decree? what if u cut one vision and the threads and made them a decree?
The one Threads is actually there because I didn't think Explosives was enough mass removal on its own, and I wanted a few more cards that could deal with more than one creature at once. So I put in some Wraths, but that really clogged up the 4cc, so I turned the third Wrath into a Threads to make things run more smoothly. Plus there's nothing more fun than playing Threads on a Dreadnought.
I used to play 2 Decrees in my list, but after playing some actual games I realized that Decree doesn't actually do anything. For it to make a real difference, you need to spend a huge amount of mana. It's too slow against aggressive decks, and many of the blue decks that it's supposed to be good against are packing Stifle. Cutting the Decrees is how I found room for the Wraths, and they have made a big difference. You're the control deck in almost every matchup, so even against slow decks like the counterbalance the extra removal is useful, because anything that drags the game on longer is good.
Good job phil. Losing to such pure unadaltered luck against gus had to be painful. Nice showing though.
Thanks for the support. The loss against Gus's pile was more painful than you can imagine.
Is there a reason not to run Pernicious Deed over Engineered Explosives besides the fact the deck can recur Explosives with Academy Ruins? I ask because Deed would seem to be a functionally better board sweeper given its ability to hit just about everything. Plus, it can board sweep everything will still leaving the Planeswalkers intact.
Deed can be really slow, getting green mana + black can be harsh to have. Plus you waste a turn playing it and another turn activating it. EE does almost the same thing and cost way less and not to mention the academy ruins "lock" which will win game by itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fossil4182
I'm really just about to try this deck for the first time. I thought I would put up what I am about to run with.
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Plateau
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Academy Ruins
1 Eternal Dragon
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Lightning Helix
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
4 Ancestral Visions
3 Brainstorm
3 Cunning Wish
2 Compulsive Research
SB
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Negate / Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Instant Sweeper (ideas? I was thinking Volcanic Fallout but that is heavy red. Cleansing Beam? This slot probably isn't even needed.)
2 Krosan Grip
3 Path to Exile
4 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds
I hate changing decks up before testing, but since there really is no established list, I tried to mash them all together. I am definitely trying out Phil's list now since I love the toolbox, however, I am trying to tune this to a more aggro meta. Thoughts? Is there anything that definitely needs to be in here that I am missing? I also know that it is 62 cards. I plan to trim it after testing.
If you're going to run singleton Shackles, I'd consider running Enlightened Tutor as a 1 of so you have some ways to get it.
I've liked 1 Tolaria West (may go back up to 2) just to tutor for EE or Academy Ruins to complete the EE lock.
I thought about Tutor, but it just really isn't worth it. Shackles is more of another removal spell / win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Totally forgot about Tolaria West grabbing EE. I had the 1-1 split with Ruins but I figured 2 is better than one if it gets destroyed or something. If I don't like Trops, I'll probably add in 2 Wasteland and 2 Factories to go along with 1 Ruins and 1 West.
Tolaria West is amazing in this shell: Ancestral Visions, Engineered Explosives, Wasteland, Academy Ruins, Mishra's Factory... can grab card drawing, answers to any threat, recursion engine or beats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
The only reason I'm running 1 of Tolaria West right now is when you get it in your opening hand with say 1-2 other lands, you just want to cry :(
I just mentioned the Enlightened Tutor with Shackles since you're playing Shackles as a 1 of, you probably won't see it that often. With Tutor, at least it gives you effectively 2 copies of it, plus it can grab other stuff (although I guess you're not running Humility).
Got some questions for you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Why 2 Academy Ruins?
Why do you think Firespout + Helix is better than any other removal? For example: Wrath of God/Humilty/Moat?
Why do you think Compulsive Research is better than Jace Beleren? It says 1UU Draw a card, Then prevent damage or draw another card in your next turn.
Why do you think Ancestral Vision is better than Standstill? Maybe a bit weird question but I personally prefer the effect Standstill has over the game.
I do think the Ancestral Vision vs Standstill debate is an interesting one.
Here's how I see it:
Standstill
Pros:
-Almost always gets your cards faster
-Can almost immediately break stalemates
-Plays really well with Planeswalkers and Factories
Cons:
-Spell Snarable
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it
-Can benefit your opponent
-Greater chance of running across decks that are also built to use it
Ancestral Vision
Pros:
-Amazing if suspended early
-Low mana investment
-Doesn't tend to grow Tarmogoyf
Cons:
-Slow!
-Counterbalance + Top = Sad Times
-Chalice @ 0
so visions win because they only have 3 cons and the same amount of pros whereas standstill has 4 cons?Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
i mean the pros and cons are obvious. but what do you want to play in ultimate walker?
I guess Standstill has lost his effectiveness a bit. Many aggro decks play vial or ways to get past standstill where they might be forcing you to break you own standstill. With AV this problem doesn't occur. You invest 1 mana and 4 turns later mostly you'll be able to draw 3 cards, that is a certainty.
I also like the effect AV has on the board. Aggro tries to overextend because those three cards can mean their end. Control/aggro controll will hold back a counter allmost every single time for it, thus giving you room to play other spells.
You could play either in the deck I guess, but AV seems to be the more attractive card to me.
But you can stifle visions.Quote:
Originally Posted by miko
On the other hand, Daze is almost virtually ineffective against Vision as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimirynk
For me, not all of the pros/cons have the same weight.
I like Vision because:
1) It's not played much in Legacy, so people have less experience dealing with it.
2) Standstill, seeing more play, does suffer from dealing with other decks built around it.
3) I like that with AV, you never (barring the odd Misdirect) risk helping your opponent with it.
It also gives you another potential T1 play.
Stifle is indeed a con. Which makes AV a lot worse since:Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
-Can benefit your opponent (Hardly comes forward)
-On board removal such as Qasali Pridemage/Seals/EE is bad for it (another weird flaw, since you can simply remove the cards before playing standstill. Since you only play standstill if you got a positive board or you want to stretch the game (which is always good for a deck like Landstill or UW (Ultimate Walker).
Spell snare is a con and that other decks are better designed to use Standstill is another con however the cons of AV are much worse than that. Trust me.
The pro's of AV are also vague. -Low mana investment it only costs 1 mana less, which isnt such a big deal since you dont want to play standstill turn 2 or only if nothing have happened on the board which isn't the case like 80% of the time.
If you play standstill at turn 4, you will get as fast cards as AV. AV is only amazing when suspended at turn 1, after that it just becomes a U, wait 4 turns, hope you survive, gather your counters (against U decks) and hope it resolves.
For a deck as Landstill the one power more Tarmogoyf does not make any difference when played:
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
3 Engineered Explosives
Atleast, this is my removal.
Standstill has so much more effect on the game against any other deck than Vial-decks than AV that it is worth playing Standstill instead of AV. Trust me.
1) Random. People only need to read it once (probably already heard from it) and need to gather counters for 4! turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
2) It only suffers from 2 decks, it owns the rest (except maybe other control)
3) The misdirect only happens when you made a mistake or if your opponent is having the nuts. Both will not occur more than 1-3% of all games played.
In case one gets destroyed. It is such a powerhouse and if you run into Wasteland or another Ruins, having the second is nice. I also don't have Crucible in that list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cenarius
Cheaper. 4cc is clunky as hell with the Planeswalkers and having faster answers is better.
Gets answers now than waiting for them.
Honestly, I still prefer Standstill. That's why I would rather play Walkerstill than this. AV is pretty slow and as I said, I would rather draw my cards now than later. It is also weaker to a lot of cards being played heavily in the format.
Cenarius - I'm not sure why you asked about AV in the first place if you were already set on Standstill being better?
For me, I think it's interesting enough that it's worth testing and playing with. I think straight up, Standstill is a better card - but in the Legacy metagame, it may not hold to be true.
Decks that play Spell Snare (Canadian Thresh always seems to be around), decks that run Aether Vial (Merfolk), or use Standstill themselves (Dreadstill, Landstill) lessen the effectiveness of Standstill.
Oh, another reason I can see people playing AV (at least in this deck) is because Tolaria West seems to be a popular card for the deck.
Well I'm convinced that Standstill is better than AV for me because of the way I play the deck, I guess. I just wanted to open the discussion since there seemed to be no discussion going on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
Tolaria West --> AV will cost 4 mana and 4 turns to get 3 cards. Legacy is a fast format, maybe too fast for a card like this.
I played Faeries in Extended (with AV) and I know that sometimes it is awesome (when suspended at turn 1) but I already felt that AV was even too slow for the extended metagame either. AV has no effect on the game since it is just a wait 4 turns - draw 3 cards card.
Standstill does have an effect on the state of the board. Since it will either slow the board down or gives you 3 cards which is pretty awesome for 2 man, isn't it?
I know that Dreadstill, Merfolk and Landstill (in certain amounts) plays standstill but Dreadstill is already a positive/good matchup. Landstill is a good matchup I suppose since you play 6 planeswalkers (with Ajani just being broken) and Merfolk (when playing wog and especially Moat shouldn't be a big problem aswell, although it is not a good or very positive matchup ofcourse).
I'm a Tempo Threshold player aswell (playing it for a long time now) and the threath of Spell Snare can just be ignored. You can always say that you shouldn't play a card because there's a answer to it. Why do people play goyf when people play Swords to Plowshares? Because Tarmogoyf is the best creature in the metagame. Why do people play Standstill when people play Spell Snare? Because Standstill is far more superior than AV.
This is my current list:
2 Ajani Vengeant
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Decree of Justice
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cunning wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
1 Moat
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
2 Island
2 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
It's amazing how nearly identical that list is to everything going on in the UWx landstill thread...