[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by conboy31

I just looked through every green / green + x color creature on magiccards.info looking specifically to see if a 5 or 6 drop creature has been overlooked. It doesn't seem like it. I also looked at off color gold creatures to zenith into and splash a single dual land. Found nothing. I was briefly excited when I saw Vulturous Zombie, it is a 5 drop and from the new commander set which I did not pay much attention to. I then read his abilities and power for the first time. It is trash... oh well.
I am looking forward to the printing of a 3BG creature to zenith for in this deck with a nice CIPT.

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In 5CC creatures, if you're looking for:
- a domination of the board: Lord of Extinction or Spiritmonger
- a utility creature: Acidic Slime
- a creature that cannot be dealt with: Grave-Shell Scarab or Gigapede
- a high number of blockers: Deranged Hermit or Ant Queen

Also the 5-split-mana gods are all worth considering attention, in particular Deus of Calamity.

But once again, I'm not sure you need this. GSZ on Witness is already generally the best move you can get when having loads of mana.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maveric78f

In 5CC creatures, if you're looking for:
- a domination of the board: Lord of Extinction or Spiritmonger
- a utility creature: Acidic Slime
- a creature that cannot be dealt with: Grave-Shell Scarab or Gigapede
- a high number of blockers: Deranged Hermit or Ant Queen

Also the 5-split-mana gods are all worth considering attention, in particular Deus of Calamity.

But once again, I'm not sure you need this. GSZ on Witness is already generally the best move you can get when having loads of mana.

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The deck has a lot of mana so having some expensive cards is just natural. Grave Titan for example is worth his Mana and I would recommend not cutting it. Maybe even a second Titan could be played but there are so few slots. With 4 GSZ it is good to have something like a finisher. Deranged Hermit is imo the best choice green has for this slot all things considered. It puts a lot of pressure on on a control deck, often stabilizes the board against aggro, has synergy with Recurring Nightmare, is good against spot removal and is not affected by yard hate. No other green creature for under seven Mana can do so many that this deck wants.
Spiritmonger is a vanilla 6/6 (all 3 abilities are basically irrelevant). Acidic Slime is competition for Wickerbough Elder but not a game winner. Deus ability in a deck that tries to suicide Veteran Explorer is bad. Scarab and Gigapede just win long drawn out games but GSZ on Witness usually does that too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

The deck has a lot of mana so having some expensive cards is just natural. Grave Titan for example is worth his Mana and I would recommend not cutting it. Maybe even a second Titan could be played but there are so few slots. With 4 GSZ it is good to have something like a finisher. Deranged Hermit is imo the best choice green has for this slot all things considered. It puts a lot of pressure on on a control deck, often stabilizes the board against aggro, has synergy with Recurring Nightmare, is good against spot removal and is not affected by yard hate. No other green creature for under seven Mana can do so many that this deck wants.
Spiritmonger is a vanilla 6/6 (all 3 abilities are basically irrelevant). Acidic Slime is competition for Wickerbough Elder but not a game winner. Deus ability in a deck that tries to suicide Veteran Explorer is bad. Scarab and Gigapede just win long drawn out games but GSZ on Witness usually does that too.

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If your looking for a finisher go to CMC 6 and drop in a Vigor. ...it's lights out with your loved hermit squirrels.

Edit: Also on Rampaging Baloths:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

@Maveric:
Rampaging Baloths out of GSZ don't give anything when Sworded unless you have 7 Mana in play plus a land in hand.

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This looks like a pessimistic outlook. It also doesn't do anything when your GSZ is countered. :) I say play to win, and let your opponent worry about stopping you. Don't let a possible outcome stop you from adding a good card.

You don't need a land in hand necessarily. A grave bound Veteran can trigger 2 4/4's. Or a Scryb Ranger can net you a land fall out of nowhere, and should be considered regardless for all the other tricks it provides. (see this thread again for a different take) toMAYto / toMAHto {shrug} Just my two cents.

How about combining Veteran Explorer with Aven Mindcensor?

Scryb Ranger is horrendous in this. This deck is not even remotely comparable to the Mono Green Zenith deck. This is a control deck while the other list is some kind of Ramp/Aggro hybrid. And of course you should consider possible outcomes when you build a deck. In a deck with no other good targets for Swords to Plowshares (Explorer can be sacced immediately to Therapy / Tower) it is bad to give them a juicy target if you don't have to.

Aven Mindcensor was suggested before. If the deck would care about the opponent getting free lands it wouldn't play Explorer in the first place.

got top8 at a local tournament with a 3-2 record with the following list:

4 Windswept heath
4 Verdant catacombs
2 Marsh flats
3 Bayou
3 Swamp
4 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad arbor

4 Green sun's zenith
2 Recurring Nightmare
1 Birthing pod
3 Pernicious deed
2 Maelstrom pulse
3 Hymn to tourach
3 Cabal therapy
2 Garruk, primal hunter

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Bird of paradise
3 Skinshifter
1 Wall of blossoms
4 Eternal witness
1 Kitchen finks
1 Aven mindcensor
1 Harmonic sliver
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Deranged Hermit

SB:
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Loaming shaman
1 Pernicious deed
3 Diabolic edict
3 Krosan grip
1 Cold-eyed selkie
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
2 Angel's grace

I could write a small report if anyone is interested.

I think a small white splash (1 plains, maybe 1 savannah) is well worth it, but only for 3 cards: aven mindcensor, harmonic sliver (way better than the alternatives), angel's grace (hivemind). Mindcensor is there against decks that play intuition, natural order, infernal tutor, stoneforge mystic, and zenith. Decks not playing these cards, i most likely board out mindcensor.

Just some notes from playing the deck:
Hymn is the right card here, the deck needs a turn 2 bomb.
Birthing pod only resolved in 2 games, but it won those 2 games for me.
Skinshifter is good but not great, however the alternatives (goyf, qsali, wall of blossoms) are even more underwhelming.
Pulse is amazing, and i want to find room for a 3rd. Spot removal, can 2 for 1, and hits planeswalkers.
I wanted a zenith target that could destroy a creature, but I don't know of one that exists (i.e. shriekmaw, necrotic sliver, or fleshbag marauder, but green). There's also a hole at 4cc, which i plugged with thrun (which isnt a bad choice), but i feel like there's something better out there in this slot.

I regret not playing orzhov pontiff somewhere in the 75.
This deck folds to most show and tell decks (hivemind specifically).
recurring nightmare is underrated.

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Congratulations? Too bad it wasnt enough for a 4-1 or 5-0. Would be very interested in a report.

- I agree with the 3rd Pulse. Probably in the side though because the maindeck is overly full.

- Birthing Pod. Great suggestion. Upgrading Explorer into Wall into Finks into Wickerbough Elder into Deranged Hermit sounds like fun. What I especially like is that it could tutor removal (Bone Shredder, Shriekmaw). And upgrading Shriekmaw into Grave Titan, yeah, that is fair. I think it was mentioned before but I never really considered it. Its onboard CMC of 4 even survives most Deeds. With your good experiences and some more thoughts I guess I have to try it now :)

- Skinshifter is not good. That I don't have to test. Tarmogoyf is usually bigger than a 4/4 Skinshifter anyway and that without being forced to pay G every turn, especially after a Deed.

- The SB was made in order to combat Hive Mind so don't change it and then complain that you lose. 4 Edicts are usually enough to keep Emrakul away and with 4 addional Thoughtseizes there is enough Discard to slow them down significantly. Extirpate is an awesome counter to their Intuitions and it gives information for Therapy. It sometimes randomly wins games by getting a discarded Hive Mind but that is of course not the main reason to play it.
Leyline of Sanctity is a hard problem though. Once you know they play it you have to bring the Nature's Claims too (which is one of the reasons why imo Nature's Claim is better than Krosan Grip).

round1: mono white life gain
game 1: He attacks into my explorer, allowing me to set up hermit druid + nightmare. He has 3 soul wardens, and gains alot of life because of the token army im amassing, and his serra ascendants get me down to 4 before i find skinshifter to chump. At one point its 153 life to 4, but i wipe his board with deed, and attack with ten 6/6 wurms, and it doesn't really matter how much life he has.
game 2: goes to time because deed and pulse were in my bottom 20 in game 1 so it took forever. Ill take the win anyhow
(1-0)

round2: ledless dredge with bloodghast
game 1: I dont see deed or pulse before getting overrun
game 2: seize takes away his brokenness, and i swing with skinshifter. A zenith for loaming shaman seals the deal.
game 2: two explorers and two therapies plus deed. Zenith for ooze takes the game
(2-0)

round3: UW stoneforge + standstill
game1: A hymn hits mystic, so i slowplay my topdecked mindcensor, which works like a charm, and his 2nd mystic faceplants into it. Zenith grabs thrun, and i start swinging. Unfortunately he topdecks sword of feast and famine, which combined with jace overpowers me.
game2: 2 therapies and explorer in opener just destroys his hand and clears the way for birthing pod. Pod ramps my 2nd explorer into a thrun and i take the game easily.
game3: i keep a discard heavy hand, and we go into permission / discard war. I sneak my selkie through, and he gives me enough card advantage to steal the win.
(3-0)

round3: UBW faeries (spellshutter sprite, mystic, bitterblossom)
game1: Keep 1 lander with 2 zenith. First zenith gets missteps, 2nd one gets arbor but then eats an innocent blood. By the time i see a 2nd land, bitterblossom + jitte is swinging for 10 a turn.
game2: He didnt play anything white, or white lands in game 1, so i boarded wrong. His turn 2 stoneforge mystic for feast/famine just wrecks me before i can answer it.
(3-1)

round 4: Dream halls combo w/ show and tell
game1: mull to 5, with explorer + witness. I swing with explorer and draw lands for a couple turns, and he combos out turn 4 or 5.
game2: hand of therapy explorer, hymn, witness, and i think i have it in the bag. Therapy naming show and tell misses, but he rips one off the top of his deck, and goes turn 1: tomb + lotus petal + show and tell + dream halls + conflux.
(3-2)

Birthing pod is nice against slow decks, but i would board it out against anything faster. Its amazing under standstill, as it turns 1 fetchland into every creature in your deck.

Skinshifter seemed really good on paper, and i do think its a decent card against stompy decks, but i wouldn't play 3 in the future. For the record i don't like wall of blossoms either. 1 will become shriekmaw for sure.

Against hivemind, Leyline ignores you discard, and they have more counters than you have edicts and enchantment hate. Just in testing against this deck with various sideboards, i almost never won, which is why my sideboard wasn't aimed at beating it.

Good report.

Birthing Pod gets absurd if you change the deck a little bit. Totally missed the potential of the card, the people who mentioned it were right. This is a Birthing Pod deck.

What I like about it: Compare it to Recurring Nightmare. Nightmare only gets creatures back so it will usually downgrade them because you play your small creatures first. This is still good because of the "comes into play" and/or "leaves play" effects but Birthing Pod actually upgrades the creatures and still gets these effects. And it tutors. It also doesn't care for the colors of the creatures like Green Sun's Zenith. You can finally tutor Removal like Bone Shredder.
It gives so much value and makes you use your Mana every turn while at the same time being absolutely realiable. I went back up to 4 Explorer, 4 Therapy and had to cut Hymn because of the Mana.

I play a slight W splash for Academy Rector (was also mentioned already but I didn't listen), Stoneforge Mystic and Reveillark. Turning a Veteran Explorer into a Stoneforge fits perfectly. Academy Rector is pretty sick with Birthing Pod. It puts Nightmare/Deed and Reveillark/Hermit into play. And turning a Reveillark into a Grave Titan, yeah.
I also came up with a nice little Combo but atm it is not included because I don't want to waste the slots. If you sacrifice Academy Rector into Pod you could get a Corpse Connoisseur plus Nightmare and reanimate a creature of your choice (Iona, Elesh Norn).

I played another small Magic League tourney and easily went 3-0, beating Merfolk, Zoo and the Stoneforge/Standstill deck, only losing a single game to Mana screw after I kept a 6 card one lander on the draw against Merfolk. 8-0 atm, and though it is only Magic League the deck feels very impressive. . The deck has serious DTB potential now! Play it, it crushes 3/4 of the Meta and is not bad against the rest.


// Lands
2 [B] Swamp
4 [B] Forest
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [B] Bayou
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
2 [US] Phyrexian Tower
1 [B] Plains
1 [B] Savannah
1 [U] Scrubland
4 [ON] Windswept Heath

// Creatures
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
4 [SH] Wall of Blossoms
4 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
2 [UD] Academy Rector
1 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
1 [UL] Bone Shredder
1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
1 [MOR] Reveillark
1 [JGC] Deranged Hermit
1 [M11] Grave Titan

// Spells
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [NPH] Birthing Pod
2 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
1 [EX] Recurring Nightmare
1 [NPH] Batterskull
1 [LG] Moat

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 [COM] Scavenging Ooze
SB: 3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 [M11] Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [TO] Mesmeric Fiend

Did you ever miss the Maelstrom Pulses or Garruk, Primal Hunter? Also, I don't like the fact that titan's tokens die to deed. Have you thought of running Sun Titan or even Baneslayer Angel in his place? I'm tempted to even try Rampaging Baloths because of its synergy with explorer and though those tokens die to deed as well, they are bigger. You probably spoke about the benefits of Grave Titan earlier in the thread and just forgotten.

The list is not final yet. There is A LOT of undiscovered terrain. I am not sure about anything, really. I just know that Pod does amazing things and that I dont really lose anymore^^

I cut Pulse because you can tutor the Bone Shredder now. I cut Garruk because I rather have a 5 drop that I can search for with Pod.
Sun Titan is also good but I think with Witness and Lark there are enough cards that get back stuff. Baloths are conditional and I don't like that about a 6-drop. Grave Titan is usually enough so a potential upgrade is not very important.

If you are running academy rector, you should play one enchantment that just wins when it lands. In this case, i think that enchantment is Dovescape. With birthing pod + dovescape on the board, i can't see you ever losing. Your opponent cant cast spells, and through witness/rector/sun titan/reveillark, you gain huge card advantage. Your 2nd/3rd rector becomes deed if you need to sweep, or recurring nightmare if something important is in your grave. Sun titan recurs deed or recurring nightmare indefinitely, and dovescape protects your board.

Also dovescape with garruk on the board, would win most games as well. Even with nothing else on the board, you play enough utility creatures to dominate any control/combo deck.

With that said, i am not convinced birthing pod is all that good. It has been very slow in my experience, and puts poor results against combo, zoo, merfolk, and goblins. It also suffers against heavy control decks, which counter/destroy it, or destroy your creatures before they get to the higher cc tier. But this is just my limited experience.

If i were to run birthing pod heavy deck, i would try to fit these in: dovescape, garruk, fleshbag marauder, sun titan, recurring nightmare, 2 academy rector, aven mindcensor (in SB), and some discard for tempo (mesmeric fiend, thoughtseize, tidehollow sculler). Orzhov pontiff combos nicely with dovescape (as does goblin sharpshooter, alot of other cards) but deed is probably all you need, if that. Necrotic sliver is a really good card too, not to be overlooked.

I went to FNM tonight with 0 Birthing Pods and was able to trade 1 M12 pack to 3 different people for 1 birthing pod each. I am surprised at how liquid M12 packs are. I ended up with about 70 of them from Gen Con.

Anyways, I feel like 2 birthing pods and either a Garuuk or Liliana Vess might be more correct than 3 pods. As I was playing games and slowly acquiring the pods I morphed the decklist to Tao's current list. Along the way, cutting the placeholder planeswalkers.

The other placeholder was 1 volraths stronghold instead of the 2nd phrexian tower. I made mental note of which would have been better and found they came out to be about equal. Having the sac ability was often relevant, however it came up that i needed 2 colorless mana and the legend rule would have been a problem. Also, putting a witness on top during the midgame feels good. It was also able to help out vs. Jace fatesealing me during a game vs. bant stoneforge.

Yeah, it is either 2 or 3 Pods. The current setup is extremely weak to Tombstalker, though. I have atm cut the Moat for a different approach to stop creature beats via Pod when Rector/Deed does not work or is too slow. One Phyrexian Metamorph for the one big guy plan (Prog, Emrakul, Tombstalker) and one Silent Arbiter for the swarm Plan. The long game plan is still Rector for Recurring Nightmare.

So my Birthing Pod plan atm looks like:

0>1: Fetchland > Dryad Arbor > Explorer
1>2: Explorer > Wall /SFM
2>3: Wall > Witness/Finks/Bone Shredder/ Kitchen Finks
3>4: 3-drop > Academy Rector / Silent Arbiter / Phyrexian Metamorph
4>5: Academy Rector > Deed/Nightmare+Reveillark / Nightmare+Hermit
5>6: Lark > Grave Titan

This of course can change pretty fast. The Academy Rector into Iona / Elesh Norn is still possible too.
This deck is challenging to build. Also there are probably tons of cards or combos that can be still found.

I think 4 Deeds and 4 Witness are too much.
We could get some slots from there.
2 Zenith and 3 Pots +3 Witness = 8 Possible Ways to get them (we want to have some good recursion anyway)
3 Pots on Rector + 2 Rector + 3 Deeds = 8 Possible Ways to get them (even if its slow)
Witness with Deed combined (and maybe Nightmare) = Tons of chances to get a Deed #2.

Metamorph is a great add to the deck. I think it's a must-play as you can copy Equipments as well.

Protean Hulk, Ranger of Eos could also seem play in such a deck. Ranger would give us more Veterans to sacrifice to Pot or to block.
Hulk is just a mean-mashine, but there aren't many moments where you want to sac a Grave Titan or Hermit for it (only with Nightmare available!).
Hermit Shanigans seems nice as well.

Sac Rector, get Pandemonium and then search hermit/Grave Titan also seems very nice. But I don't see a way to deal lethal with it (Lord of Extinction, huh? Needs 20 cards in all graves...we should test the average when we go for the plan)

Yeah, three Deeds and Witnesses are probably enough, that gives some slots and should still be enough to dominate Maverick, Zoo and Merfolk. Maybe with the 4th Deed in the Side?

I think I go for the Corpse Connoisseur with an Elesh Norn in the main. I know from my time with Survival that drawing conditional one-offs is the safest way to lose games so I disliked it. That's why I don't like the idea of Pandemonium and Lord as well.
But I didn't think about that you can use Connoisseurs ability to grab a Genesis which sounds pretty sweet. Especially against the plague that is Jace TMS in BUGstill I actually want to draw Connoisseur and because of Unearth they can't even do anything. So I will try that.

With Genesis, you will up your count of (by themselve) useless cards.
Derangend Hermit, Reveilark, Grave Titan and even Witness are cards that (multiplied in your opening hand) are really annoying. Now 2 more slots?

I think I cut Grave Titan and/or Deranged Hermit.

At the point, where you can upgrade your critters to one of those, you will have won anyway.
Recurring Revailark is enough with Witness. I think 2-3 Swords to Plowshares should be in the main 60.
I missed it so many times....

I play this deck once in a while for fun,

I really do think it has potential, and playing against someone in mws with birthing pods was a pain.. However, I don't think we should build around birthing pods too much... as it is quite slow...

I agree that swords should be somewhere in here... having no targeted removal is quite a pain...

Good points. No fancy combos, only 2 Pods. And way less 1-offs. Danger of cute things, I fell for it. If we start to run Swords then Witness will become multiple times better, too, and you don't have to name it in the list of annoying cards anymore :p

How do your current lists look like?

With the 3 or 4 witnesses main it does seem like a lot of value could be derived from at least one targeted removal like swords. Another card I have been thinking about is fleshbag marauder. It is a little clunky as a 3 mana sorcery edict, but it has extra value of being podded into/nightmared and allows for sacrificing vet or rector.

I played some games vs. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=40387
(Bgw knight + depths) and preboard we can't interact with it on a meaningful level. Post board swords and seizes allow for some mobility but the opponents 4 living wishes allows for a lot of redundancy and the 4 missteps still counter the sb options.

We switched decks back and forth and the gbw explorer won by flipping back revilark with reccuring nightmare while getting value with witness/walls. Otherwise the 20/20 wandered through the redzone. The deck is able to stave off the tarms/knights well. A resolved bob on t2 is a huge problem.

I won the next Legacy trial, too, only 32 players and 5 rounds but no bye this time, so 5-0 again. Same main deck list as last time because Hymns and Pulses are awesome and I haven't figured a Pod list with them yet.

- Hymn was awesome
- Maelstrom Pulse overperformed every single game. List needs more Pulses.
- Recurring Nightmare underperformed
- Garruk was good, Grave Titan was good, GSZ was good

Slightly altered side. I will write a short report later.

List here:

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/722...0Control163890

Report:

R1 McKeks with G/W Maverick:

The matchup is quite one-sided because of Deed and superior card power level. Another option to buy time for finding Deed is stripping his hand off Swords and locking him with Spike Weaver. He was not the best player, but even really good play wouldn't have changed anything.
In G2 he tried to Ruleslawyer but failed pretty badly. He starts to stall by playing defence with not attacking and tutoring Maze which is odd in a KO round when at 0-1. So I just keep on not losing and playing defensively and ultra-safe around everything from Geddon to Cataclysm without attacking, keeping lands and spells back. Then when time is over he goes crazy. It was 19-18 life for him (I have an active Ooze with 4 Mana up though) and I say end my turn so he somehow thinks he has won. It was kind of amusing how he tried to sneak a win that he not only didn't deserve but also couldn't get by the rules for multiple reasons.

1-0, 1-0


R2 Figazin with Stoneforge Mystic / Ancestral Vision / Jace TMS

Unlike my round 1 opponent he played good. He made one mistake in G1 with losing too much to a Deed but those things happen in long games and other than that he played fine.

The games were as close as it gets with another judge call in G3. This time I don't know if he tried to sneak something or if it was just a miscommunication:
I play a Therapy on him and in response he Wastes my Phyrexian Tower. So I take Mana in my Pool. We put both lands to the yard. Then he says "Ok". So I assume my Therapy resolves and I name "Force of Will". Then he tries to Force it and says he said "Ok" to the Mana ability that I take 1 instead of BB into the Pool from Tower and not "Ok" to the Therapy. It was ruled for me because the Stack was empty and you usually never Ok to Mana anyway. So I see his hand which was quite empty but he rips a Jace from the top of his deck so the game gets close but I manage to win on the back of Thrun from GSZ. Had he managed to find a FoW with his Jace I would have lost. This matchup very difficult and Jace/SFM in combination with Vision for more gas is extremely tough to outcontrol.

2-1, 2-0


R3: Mockingbird with Natural RUG + GSZ and Cliques

G1 is pretty hard domination because he didn't do anything up to his fourth turn when I already had Deed and 2 Walls in play. He then played a Scavenging Ooze which I had to Deed away because of the two Witnesses in my hand. I then played a Garruk on turn 5 because I drew my second and wanted to draw the Force but it just resolved. He played a Clique next turn and races me a bit with it and Bolts me in response to a Hymn but it was too little too late.

G2 is close then. He goes for a turn 2 Goyf while I hymned him but only hit excess lands. A turn 3 Clique that took my Pulse away puts a lot of pressure on me, especially after a GSZ on another Goyf. I can GSZ for Thrun and luckily he doesn't find the Instant to 4/5 his Goyfs so they have to stay home for one turn and that was just enough time to stabilize. I play a Garruk and he has to decide if he wants to use his attacks to go for Garruk or my life total. He goes for my throat but that means I get to draw 4 off Garruk thanks to Thrun. Nice Combo btw, -3ing without worrying about removal. I find the Deed and win then. Attacking Garruk wouldn't have been much better though. He wastes 6 damage and I still get 2 3/3 and 2 cards from my draw step out of the deal plus way more Mana while being ahead on cards anyway. Maybe one attack on Garruk and then attack me so I don't draw. I don't know.
Btw. I only know he played with Natural Order from checking the decklists, he never had one his four.

2-0, 3-0


R4: Gero 789 with Natural Order RUG

G1 He makes an extemely bad play in G1 that I just have no explanation for. His board is Sylvan Library and Goyf and he plays a Clique, looks at my hand and lets me keep my Deed. So I play Deed, wipe his board next turn and win. the heck was that...

G2 he draws 4 cards for 16 life with Library and 2 cards with Edric Spymaster during the first turns. I have triple Hymn that takes 6 spells in total so it is at least a bit fair. I deed him twice, then he finds Order but I had an Edict all game long that I couldn't use because he always had a Hierarch. I have to consider switching Edict to Damnation as long as RUG is big in the Meta, despite Edict being better against Reanimator and Hive Mind. An earlier Prog could have been lethal and the Spike Weaver plan is daring against a deck with red removal.

<Gero789> nice luck
<Fanboy1> thx
<Gero789> gg
<Fanboy1> gg
<Gero789> but
<Gero789> deck is orrible
<Gero789> no blue in legacy is bad

2-0, 4-0


R5: Delacroix with Team America
Opponent has no mana. He edicts me twice, forces once then still has no land so he loses to Hermit, but it could have been anything. Bad luck for him.
And a third judge call, oh my, the drama. He Edicts my Dryad Arbor at the end of his second turn off Bayou and Wasteland. Then in his mainphase he wants to play a Brainstorm off his Bayou, I tell him that is impossible and he ends the turn without a land drop. This looked very fishy to me. I mean when you only have one color producing land how can you not know the colors of it? So I go to judges and let them give him a warning and after that he of goes crazy, threatens to leave the game and behaves like I am an asshole. I think if he honestly made a mistake he would have just apologized because it obviously DID look fishy. So I think he just tried to cheat.

G2 I sided wrong because I thought he was playing some Loam deck from what I saw in G1. Should have known better. But he mulls to 5 on the play so it doesn't matter and I even get to tilt him a bit more with the Extirpates so that is good.

2-0, 5-0

Awesome deck! Has bitterblossom ever been an option? Its a great black control card, but Im unsure how it is with deed.

Btw, why isnt this in the Established section?

Yeah, this belongs in Established.

@Tao: You should update the list in the first post to match the one you're currently playing. Otherwise well done.

I feel like blossom would get swept under the rug far too often with deeds and the deck loves to attrition out games so the life lose would be notable. I would not test it, but if it makes sense to you, i'd say give it a shot!

I can't wait for innistrad to be fully spoiled. I have a great feeling about a GB or B planeswalker for this deck.

Bitterblossom: This is not a Blossom deck. The deck is rarely aggressive and conserving the life total is quite important.

For the Established section: The deck itself is certainly good enough, but there is no widely agreed list yet. Atm I play the list mentioned above with 2 extra Pulses so I guess we could take that for the OP and I could write a bit about strategy and boarding. The Birthing Pod territory isn't explored yet but this can be done in Established as well.

Birthing Pod: I tested with the Standard UGW Birthing Pod deck from Ruel and it is very good. Not to transition to Legacy the way it is but awesome to play. Endless tricks.
If you play the Sun Titan version then Phantasmal Image is a card to look at. Returning Image with Titan cloning Titan is great. Also an Emrakul/Prog/Tombstalker solution and copying KotR or Witness isn't the worst.

New Liliana: The new Liliana is quite busted. She will be best in either Pox or Loam Control or BG Vengevine. In fact she might very well be good enough to make real decks out of them. Unfortunately I can't imagine that she has a place in this. She is a solution to Prog. and Emrakul and good against Combo but the +1 just flat out sucks for this in every other matchup.

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ng-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

Nice.
I'm not so sure about bringing additional Gift engines from the SB, since you will def. be facing GY hate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ng-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

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Congtratz man. Keep up the good work!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tao

Double post but Holy cow this is on Channelfireball !!!

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ng-the-format/

List looks sweet I have to admit (at least the main). Plus last time Caleb picked up one of my decks and changed it, it went pretty far.

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I was talking with Caleb inbetween vintage side events about what he was going to play, he said blue zoo or hivemind. He then joked about a vet explorer deck, and I was like hey... I have all the cards for the deck, and brought 8 explorers with me. He showed me is list and explained what he was trying to accomplish.
When he did not show up the following morning I suspected alcohol was involved (if anyone sees him, ask him about the mountain dew bottle story from the previous night).

Also, the new garruk is intruiging for this deck: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...6&d=1314936567

I just got back from a 4-round swiss tournament running a Gbwu build. I think you can get away with the risk of fun things with this deck.

Round 1 against UBG Dreadnought
Deed and Maelstrom Pulse are generally sufficient to deal with Dreadnoughts. These weren't very close ever.

Round 2 against UW Mystic
Sat under a standstill forever waiting for good colored lands and then won with some Cabal Therapies. Won game 2 with a Pridemage knocking out a Batterskull and then Jace + beats.

Round 3 against Merfolk
He didn't get nutty 5 creature hands so I attritioned him out slowly. This is probably an unfavorable matchup unless you're running a lot of the cheaper removal.

Round 4 against GBwr Loam
Significant advantage here. You can basically just answer threats as they're played and go for the long game. Won game 1 with a turn 3 Future Sight which netted me 0 cards for 4 turns after he cast Devastating Dreams (for 5). It still won the game.

My list was approximately
19x fetches, basics, and duals
1x Maze of Ith
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland

2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Future Sight
1x Karn, Liberated
1x Recurring Nightmare

3x Eternal Witness
3x Green Sun's Zenith
3x Veteran Explorer
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Lotus Cobra
1x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Sun Titan
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Wall of Blossoms

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Gifts Ungiven
2x Sensei's Divning Top
1x Regrowth

3x Pernicious Deed
3x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Innocent Blood

Sideboard:
4x Leyline of the Void
4x Thoughtseize
2x Duress
2x Life from the Loam
2x Wasteland
1x Ghost Quarter

I find I bring in the 4 Thoughtseizes against everything. The LftL engine should probably be some anti-combo cards although I do enjoy the extra Wastelands.

Some more anecdata for you all.

First of all congratulations.

Weeeee more ideas ... like there were problems filling the 60 :D So Lotus Cobra and Future Sight.
Lotus Cobra seems good. And Future Sight is a great thing to Fetch with Rector against Control when you need something to win. I don't know about splashing White just for just those three cards though. Titan is really good while 1 Qasali and 1 KotR are nothing that justifies and Extra color. But with 1 Future Sight, 1 Rec. Nightmare and 3 Deed in the deck isn't Rector an obvious inclusion?

Just for the record I am 22-1 at Magic League now. That includes wins against the likes of an Elf player who died to his own pact and a Solidarity player who played Accumulated Knowledge and tried to Combo and Reset in his own EoT step after I Extirpated something during that EoT. But it also included a lot of Goyfs and Merfolk and Stoneforge Mystics and 22-1 isn't too shabby even with a wins that could have been losses. Most of the games were played with straight GB though recently I switched back to experimenting with Gifts.

Hi Tao,

I have been following this thread for quite some time and got interested in building this kind of deck. What are your thoughts on Caleb's build in ChannelFireball? I kinda got lost in translation as to how to play that build. Your version is straightforward and I like it however, I am also interested in getting to know the mechanics of Caleb's build. Gifts has been missing in action for quite sometime and I would love to bring it in our meta (btw, I'm from the Philippines). As the deck's proponent, do you have any plans in dabbling with Caleb's build? If so, what would be the approach in playing that deck? Your input will surely clear things on my mind as to which version should I play.

Haben Sie vielen Dank! [did I type that right :-)]

I´m glad that i found this Thread after i saw the first Decklist on TC-Decks from "fanboy1". After some testing and two tournaments, my current list:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thoughtseize

3 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms

4 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

4 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
5 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
2 Chainer´s Edict
1 Consuming Vapors
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Summoning Trap


It worked well in the first three Rounds of the last Tournament, but then my luck was gone against NO Rug, TES, Punishing StoneBlade and Reanimator. Now i´m thinking about the third color. Don´t know why but i don´t like blue in this Deck. Perhaps something like that:

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Swords to Plowshares

3 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Sun Titan
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Spike Weaver
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms

4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Plains
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs


Sideboard:
2 Retribution of the Meek
1 Consuming Vapors
4 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
3 Orim´s Chant
3 Summoning Trap

So, what do you think? Sideboard decisions like Summoning Trap or Sadistic Sacrament are first trys and discussably.
Some explanation: I don´t like Academy Rector - too often there is no Therapy or Tower and he got a StP. In my opinion it is almost the same like Birthing Pod - too much playing around something what looks great, but is it realy necessary? Normaly this Deck is able to beat most Aggro Decks with many removal + recursion and lifegain. In the G/B Builds is a bundle of Discard for Control and Combo but in my Testgames it was not enough to Win above average many games aggainst Punishing Fire, Progenitus, Hivemind and Jace, the Mind Sculptor.

Your list is very similar to mine:


// Lands
4 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold

// Creatures
4 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Veteran Explorer
2 Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Karn Liberated
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Profane Command
1 Recurring Nightmare

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Vexing Shusher
SB: 1 Loaming Shaman
SB: 1 Uktabi Orangutan
SB: 3 Diabolic Edict
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog

Guys have you checked Caleb Durward's build in ChannelFireball? He tweaked Tao's decklist with a splash of blue (Gifts Ungiven) and did not rely on GSZ this time. Its quite good but I'm a bit lost in translation in terms of playing that (Caleb's) deck. I know its a control deck but I'm a bit clueless regarding which card should you fetch via Gifts against these decks --> NO Rug, Folks, Bant and Maverick

I'm a bit torn between Caleb's and Tao's built. Tao's is straightforward Rock Control-esque and Caleb's has a toolbox approach. I want to know the thoughts of the followers of this thread. Im planning to surprise a lot of people in our upcoming tourney this October/ November (depending on the speed of the deck's creation)

I think one difference between the lists is Gifts vs Zenith. GIfts is more powerful than zenith in testing, however, it forces you to run different spells, that produce the same effect. It also makes you rely more on the grave (as for Calebs list). Gifts also pushes you to run the 4th color or 3rd(if you do not wish to run white), which seems to be ok for now, as I haven't run into an opening basic island yet...

Taos list is the basic skeleton of the entire deck. Everyone is entitled to tweak it to their playstyle and preference..but the concept remains.

One thing Ive noticed is that, whenever I zenith, I always look for a really good Green finisher, that can't be easily killed. As for now I can't seem to find any. Sun titan is white, grave titan is black.

I still run the 3 color build, as I think not running spot removal is a big mistake..where a simple dark confidant can beat you via card advantage. So for me its gbw for now... Gifts is incredibly strong, but further testing is needed..

@dakkonblackblade08
4 No rug in the top 8 of the last tournament in Manila is quite something, and you have to prepare for it... I suggest you test the basic deck first which is Taos list, and see the concepts of how it really works.. Don't make the mistake of testing it in the tournament itself, as there are tons of interactions and plays you might not want to do depending on your opponent. Then tweak it from there...as for me..

More testing is key to improving the deck..

Im pretty interested in the deck. If any of the german friends or other people are interested in going to GP Amsterdam let me know and maybe we could get some sort of playtest group going with this deck.