I'm buying some of the expensive cards hopefully tonight. Are we still running 1 candelabra or are we bumping it to two?
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I'm buying some of the expensive cards hopefully tonight. Are we still running 1 candelabra or are we bumping it to two?
Have a look at the updated list on the first page of this thread, they're 2 atm
Saw that, looks like I need to pick up a 2nd now. shouldn't be hard though. I actually liked the 2nd when I was playing, but not as much when I had both in opening hand unless it was a turn 3 dump hand.
Those turn three dump hands make this deck so much fun. All the joy of a combo win, without the slimy feeling.
Question for you fine folks: Combo Elves and Reanimator are rampant in my meta. Like epidemic level. The event I was at earlier in the month has a total of 34 players, and 14 of them were either Combo Elves or Reanimator. I could use some suggestions on shoring up my game in these match-ups, either in strategy or sideboard choices. I'm currently running the following:
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
1 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
The rest of my meta is mostly aggro(goblins die so hard to this deck), not much storm, almost zero other combo decks, with a core of dedicated RUG. I dont worry too much about RUG.
Thanks guys.
Easy fix, if this truly is your meta, and you don't have to worry about heavy-tempo oriented decks, then just swap pithing needles for cursed totems. You can also swap pithing needle for flusterstorms.Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseweasel
I am just full of ideas today, has anyone tried a GB version and played a rockish plan with deeds/decays. You could use coffers/tomb to accelerate mana and you would have black for disruption options.
That would be called "Damn Awesome Deck", there is a primer and a discussion on it in the developmental section that you can take a look at.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
how about a MUD version: 7-8 Sol lands, Kuldotha Forgemaster + Blightsteel Colossus
also,
we can call it Turbo MUDrazi.. anyone?
The deck already exists and did "ok" at a SCG. it was basically MUD with a Locus manabase. I've tested it extensively and concluded that it is not as explosive as normal MUD, has more longevity, and still loses too often.Quote:
Originally Posted by death
About GB cabal coffers the prior poster mentioned already.
My most interesting newer testing has been a RUG version of Eldrazi that ran Bonfire of the Damnedx3. It was hilarious and made the elves matchup laughably easy. Ultimately it made the deck walk into wasteland even harder though, so it required a specific meta.
updated the list to reflect my decisions about the Junk/Abrupt Decay & Sea Stompy meta that is rising up.
I piloted it to 1st at Danvers, MA today, so it works. Still messing with the sideboard to acommodate it.
Tourney report plz. I hope there are carrots.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
It would be a pretty pathetic tournament report, only 6 people showed for a 4x Tundra event. So weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseweasel
So, sure enough, Cursed totem fixed just about everything. I ended up cutting the GSZ, a brainstorm and
an expedition map for a extra repeal and a pair of All is Dust. I swapped out the maindeck pithing needles for cursed totems, per your advice. And blammo-kapow. Elves now roll over and whimper.
I'm really starting to see what you mean when you say this deck requires more choices per turn than most. But man, is it ever satisfying to sit behind an Elephant grass in game two and snicker.
*Edit*
After reviewing your latest decklist it seems I was mirroring you. Lol.
Glad to hear the changes worked out for ya!Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseweasel
I often wonder why others don't play the deck, and the only conclusion I can come to is that Legacy players aren't used to having to think 3, 4, 5 turns ahead. They can do combat math, they can see what the correct order of spells are for this turn, but I've concluded that the vast majority of them just crumple when they have to make game-changing choices on simple decisions like turn 1 land drop, or having the ability to look at 20+ cards off of 3 lands.
I recently had a conversation with some budding Legacy players about what their best deck choices would be and the conversation turned towards what is the "hardest" deck in Legacy to play. When people were debating between Storm combo and U/W Miracles I knew that Legacy simply didn't understand the numbers of permutations that were necessary to win a normal game of magic with this deck, never mind what a complex stack, competent opponent, and facing against an unknown deck does to that number of possibilities. I commend everyone in this thread who pilot this deck successfully, you are the rare players out there.
And yes, I love Elephant Grass.
Some of it is being willing to put the time into learning a deck, too. Nic Fit suffers the same problems in that regard -- there's a few competent players here and there (most of them seem to congregate around me, for some reason....I guess because they see me make it work on a regular basis), but largely, people don't touch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I'm slowly working on assembling the pieces for this deck now, as well, so hopefully I can start terrorizing locals with it soon enough. #RampDecksinLegacy4Life.
I just played a local tournament with this deck with a fairly stock list
4x Glimmerpost
4x Cloudpost
4x Vesuva
4x Tropical Island
4x Flooded Strand (mostly to look like miracles when i go strand->island->top)
1x Island
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Glacial Chasm
1x Karakas
1x Eye of Ugin
4x Primeval Titan
1x Ulamog
1x Kozilek
1x Emrakul
4x Expedition Map
4x Crop Rotation
3x Pithing Needle
2x Candelabra of Tawnos
3x Show and Tell
3x Cyclonic Rift
4x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Brainstorm
1x GSZ
SB:
4x Flusterstorm
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Venser, Shaper Savant
3x Elephant Grass
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Spellskite
I went 3-1-1 and just missed top 8 due to terrible breakers. My loss and draw were both to Rug. I have to say that the delver, delver, 2x waste, 2x force hands are really hard to beat. I also made 2 play mistakes (at least) that cost me 2 games versus Rug--both times it was me mapping for the wrong land.
As for cyclonic rift--I really liked it throughout the day. I overloaded it a couple of times versus maverick/elves and just cast it for 1U versus delver and turn 2 kotr a couple of times. It's really quite versatile. It really just breaks open board stalemates versus aggro decks that clog up the board--i used it a couple of times to swing in with titan, fetch 2 posts, then rift before blockers. Another time, i hid behind chasm for about 3 turns, eot overloaded rift to buy myself another 2 turns.
I was underwhelmed by both pithing needle and spellskite in my matchups--I never really found a needle early enough to matter; by the time I found it, it was usually after 1-2 wastelands already. Spellskite also didn't seem like it did that much for me: versus Rug it blocked goose, then ate a bolt (which isn't terrible I guess), but it's just useless versus ancient grudge. I think i might substitute cursed totem for the spellskite spots.
Not to grind home this point, but you and I have bounced back and forth about repeal/bounce spells in the past, and Repeal is in the deck specifically for RUG and delver more exactly. Sometimes it takes missing top 8 on breakers to realize that though. =D Still good job on a strong showing.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
If you dislike that Spellskite protects you in versatile ways against artifact removal, then I suggest Phyrexian Revoker in its spot. It is a stronger card than Cursed totem. I strongly like Spellskite because it can fix problematic situations, but my most current list doesn't run them anyhow.
Well, I'm still not convinced that repeal is better than rift. However, I think I'll try a 3-3 split of them by tweaking some stuff. As for spellskite--maybe I just didn't play enough games with it (which is entirely possible), but the artifact protection was just rarely relevant. I'm basically torn between revoker and totem--totem is better versus maverick/elves/mud while revoker is better vs storm. I suppose storm is a bigger threat than maverick, so I may end up leaning that way.
You also can bring in revoker against griselbrand and gads of random combo decks. I also consider revoker better than totem against mud. I found my most recently happy split between 6 removal spells to be 2 All is Dust, 4 Repeal for fairly logical reasons, but there is a large area of interpretation here.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Yea, I think revoker will probably get the nod over totem since it has broader applications.
Another question: Have you considered replacing brainstorm with ponder lately? I found brainstorm mediocre a lot of the time--it was great when I could put miracles back on top, but as the deck looks now, brainstorm is useful until top comes online. After that, brainstorm basically just becomes U: dig 1 card deeper. I was finding myself in the mid-late game stuck with 1-2 brainstorms in hand and really wishing that they were some kind of shuffle effect instead.
Dafuq did I just read?Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
I appreciate the thought and time you put into your explanation, but Ponder - while a good card - can not compare to Brainstorm, especially in decks that have a certain number of redundant cards built into them. Brainstorm sculpts hands, Ponder can only do so much to fix them. On top of that, Brainstorm is instant, helps a lot against Discard, is insane with shuffle effects and has pretty good odds of one day curing cancer.
tl;dr: It seems you want to play Ponder mainly for the shuffle effect - however, shuffling with Ponder is something you often try to avoid in the first place. I agree that using Top over the course of several turns sometimes leads to desperate need for shuffling but that's what Fetchlands etc. are for. Brainstorm on the other hand, is on a completely different level and undoubtedly the most powerful card in all of Legacy. Play it.
I think Ponder is stronger in decks trying to assemble 2 card combos i.e. Sneak Attack/Show & Tell; however they shouldn't be replacing Brainstorm. They should be working in concert. I don't think it's a good idea to cut Brainstorm altogether. Playing Ponder to supplement Brainstorm is fine in my book. I'm not sure if this fits well with SDT however.
Well the latest list does only run 3 brainstorm, but you can keep a hand on Trop-> brainstorm. You can't do that on ponder.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
I was about to write exactly what Koby stated as the response to Ponder vs Brainstorm. Older lists ran both Brainstorm and Ponder. Ponder is better when the value of your cards differs relative to the gamestate, specifically when you want to assemble combos and make the decision "I only want 1 of these 3, or none."Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
The way I play and build Eldrazi, you can often win with whatever you have ontop, thus making ponder weaker. If you were to build a Show & Tell or Crucible-heavy build, I could see ponder's strength greatly increasing.
SDT is this deck's Ponder, and I would not run Ponder over brainstorm in the current meta or build.
Yesterday I played and win the November tournament of ELL with a 42 players attendance.
I played the same list as the previous month to win the tournament http://manainfinito.com/coverage/lis...l-2012-octubre with a small change in the sideboard.
This is the link to the videos of the October final.
http://manainfinito.com/videos/ell-2...ada-vs-mendibe
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Flusterstorm
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Phyrexian revoker
2 Elephant Grass
1 Cursed Totem (Not expecting elves)
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
Given the short time I've had to test the last 2 weeks, I could not try the new changes of Rock Lee. I feel very comfortable with the main list.
Round 1 - BUG Landstill 2-1
-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm
Round 2 - Esper blade 2-1
-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm
Round 3 - RUG delver 2-0 (The player makes TOP 8)
-2 Candelabra of tawnos -1 Bojuka bog
+1 Tabernacle +2 Elephant grass
Round 4 - UW Miracles 2-0 (The player makes TOP 8)
-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm
Round 5 - UR Burn ID (The player makes TOP 8)
Round 6 - UW RIP Miracles 1-2 (The player makes top 8)
I played this round to be the first of the tournament and can start in the top
-1 Bojuka bog -2 Show & tell
+3 FLusterstorm
Quarter finals - RUG delver 2-0
-2 Candelabra of tawnos -1 Bojuka bog
+1 Tabernacle +2 Elephant grass
Semifinal - Junk 2-0
-1 Bojuka bog -1 Glacial chasm -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
+3 Flusterstorm
Final - UR burn 2-1 (Recorded in video, in 3 weeks or so in http://manainfinito.com/)
2nd game
-1 Bojuka bog -3 Pithing needle -1 Candelabra of Tawnos
+2 Elephant grass + 3 Flusterstorm
3rd game
-3 Flusterstorm
+3 Chalice of the void
Congratulations on your win! I didn't realize that you won the entire event, so I had to read through the whole report to find out how you did, hoping for your success. =DQuote:
Originally Posted by Zeisse
It appears that you like Flusterstorm even more than I do, which is no crime, the card is incredible. I don't side it in against any of the matchups you did it for, which amuses me. Though Junk-build depending I might, if they run hymn and snapcaster.
Against RIP Combo I'm sure how you can see how Flusterstorm was not effective against RIP Combo, and Beast Within, or if you indeed have that much RIP Combo, Krosan Grip, would be stronger choices. You also could bring in Venser, although I find him somewhat slow against RIP combo, which can have a significant clock build-depending.
I am amazed that you sided out bojuka bog against RUG Delver, since it is the major answer to Nimble Mongoose, and I find that often playing single lands against them is the least-dangerous route. Again the deck shows its resilience against multiple siding strategies though!
Lastly, against UR burn, I often side exactly the same as I do against rug, despite WANTING to side in Flusterstorms. I'm sure you realize that you would have loved Spellskite against that matchup. I think not siding in Chalice game 2, but opting for it game 3 is controversial, but a significantly better choice than in game 2 and keeping it in game 3. I have been testing a chalice-less sideboard recently, so I am intrigued as to how important chalice was for you in your Finals game 3.
Just won a 3 Round bye for GP Denver!
5 Rounds, to a Top 4. I'll post a report in a bit.
Report here.
grats on the win!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
quick question, what exactly prompted the addition of 2 all is dust at the expense of brainstorm?
and how does it fair against the premier aggro decks of legacy in your testing (merfolk, gobs, RUG, zoo, etc.)?
I love brainstorm. It is great, awesome, super strong. However when you have a strong hand, Brainstorm is weak and often only "draw 1 card for 1 colored mana." For most decks this is an acceptable loss. For this deck, colored mana is at a premium, so I've been testing sub-4 Brainstorm for awhile and finally went through with it. I'm not sold on only 2, but for now it is working for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
All is Dust has been a card that existed in the deck in the past. It is a meta call. With more combo, more control and less permanents, you can go down to 0 All is Dust, and simply ignore the board. Even with high tempo presence, you can ignore the board, as is seen by my beating goblins in SCG Providence many times. However, this requires more elaborate and specific play, which always opens up possibilities of losing. All is Dust simplifies these games into, ruin your board, buy myself a huge amount of breathing room, and just win.
It proved itself to be extremely strong at the GPT and the event last week at Danvers, MA, which I also won. Another way to think of All is Dust, is the stronger Cavern of Souls, Planeswalkers, and 3 cmc creatures becomes, the better All is Dust is. Considering that the Meta is rich with those three, All is Dust was the obvious choice.
Sorry with my English, I am using a translator.
The truth is that I've found the flustestorm very useful against control decks and discard/GSZ decks. In my metagame, miracles players have learned to play against our deck knowing how important is a fast Entreat the angel and Vendillion clique or adding cards like Humillity and Back to basics to the sideboard. Do not get me wrong, the pairing seems favorable but I like being able to completely protect the Repeals. We do not lose anything by taking out the Bojuka bog and 2 Show & tell a card does not seem better than the flusterstorms in this pairing.Quote:
It appears that you like Flusterstorm even more than I do, which is no crime, the card is incredible. I don't side it in against any of the matchups you did it for, which amuses me. Though Junk-build depending I might, if they run hymn and snapcaster.
In this pairing I sideboarded wrong. In the second game I did not know that my opponent was playing Rest in peace and Helm of obedience and he beat me in the fifth turn with the combo. In the third game my opponent played a needle naming candelabra, necessary for my game at the time, followed by a Vendillion clique and a Jace the mind sculptor. I was not in the game at any time. I will test the Krosan grips or Beast whitings in the sideboard this weeks.Quote:
Against RIP Combo I'm sure how you can see how Flusterstorm was not effective against RIP Combo, and Beast Within, or if you indeed have that much RIP Combo, Krosan Grip, would be stronger choices. You also could bring in Venser, although I find him somewhat slow against RIP combo, which can have a significant clock build-depending.
The truth is that every time I've faced RUG Delver I've never had problems with the Nimble mongooses.Quote:
I am amazed that you sided out bojuka bog against RUG Delver, since it is the major answer to Nimble Mongoose, and I find that often playing single lands against them is the least-dangerous route. Again the deck shows its resilience against multiple siding strategies though!
This UR burn did not play Force of will, only Daze and Spell pierce with more burn. I lost the second game by two Price of progress after making a wrong play, and in the third game I decided to change strategy. I made several mistakes again in the third game from exhaustion but I could take the win.Quote:
Lastly, against UR burn, I often side exactly the same as I do against rug, despite WANTING to side in Flusterstorms. I'm sure you realize that you would have loved Spellskite against that matchup. I think not siding in Chalice game 2, but opting for it game 3 is controversial, but a significantly better choice than in game 2 and keeping it in game 3. I have been testing a chalice-less sideboard recently, so I am intrigued as to how important chalice was for you in your Finals game 3.
Sorry for not being able to express myself as I would like.
PD: Now I have a little more time I'll try All is dusts.
PD II: Congrants on your win Rock Lee, I hope you get a good result at the GP.
Your English is better than 99% of native speakers. All is Dust has proven to be wonderful! Thanks, the GP is in 2 Months, so plenty of time to prepare and further tune to a Junk centered metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeisse
Are there any matchups except Storm and High Tide where you are not favorable?
I have a theory about Legacy, that whenever someone states this questions, the answer is very likely to be "Dragon Stompy." And in case this is true, you are looking at a pretty damn strong deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Any combo deck that isn't 100% reliant on the graveyard is contingent on winning both of game 2 and 3. Winning both those games is based off of proper sideboard choices before the event relative to the meta. In this sense, nearly all combo is unfavorable, but with proper sideboarding only a small portion of the remaining combo is unfavorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Because of this, the unfavorable matchups change with every sideboard choice. Currently, the worst matchups are as follows in this order:
MUD, Elves, Belcher, High Tide, Tendrils-Storm, Dragon Stompy, Sea Stompy, Sneaky/Omni-Show.
The entire sideboard is geared towards beating these matchups with high consistency game 2 and 3, whilst not being entirely dead to other random combo decks at the same time.
The last 3 on that list I have a strong plan against, they all lose to Show & Tell resolution, and Beast Within has a strong role, so I don't fear them nearly as much as the first 4.
This question goes out to all who do testing with this deck.
Imagine an extremely diverse meta, with virtually equal amounts of the following decks:
1. UW Miracles
2. RUG Delver
3. ANT
4. Merfolk
5. Goblins
6. Burn
7. Dredge
8. Mono-Black Aggro/Control
9. SneakyShow/OmniTell
10. Blade Control
11. Other Random Combo (MUD, Elves, High Tide, Belcher)
how would you tweak the main or sb for such a meta?
That's a healthy meta, if there truly is an even split among those decks. If you have NO maverick or Bug/Junk decks, which I find unlikely but possible, then you don't actually NEED 2 All is Dust on the main, and those could become stronger anti-combo cards, which you seem to have more than normal amounts of. However I think that the current maindeck/sideboard as of Nov 24 would suit you fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Code:// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [B] Tropical Island
1 [ZEN] Island (2)
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [CMD] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [ZEN] Forest (1a)
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
// Spells
3 [US] Show and Tell
2 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [GP] Repeal
3 [10E] Pithing Needle
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 2 [VI] Elephant Grass
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 1 [NPH] Spellskite
Oh right, I knew i forgot something! haha!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Yes, there is plenty of Mav over here too, but varying builds... There are a couple of Traditional GW lists, 1 or 2 Natural Order lists, and 1-2 punishing mav
Yeah, sounds like a very healthy meta. The maindeck and sideboard as listed are fine for what you're describing. If you insist on changing it, which some players do despite it being a worst-choice for the deck, you could go upto 4 show & tell. if you do this be sure you go upto 3 venser in the sideboard as your show & tell matchup will be weaker.Quote:
Originally Posted by SBGpinas
Haven't posted in a while (been working on Tezzeret Stax as a second Legacy deck), but it looks like I may finally be able to acquire a Tabernacle soon. Does anyone play Tabernacle main, or is it just purely as a silver bullet in the board?
I'm leaning towards playing it main, since I can always sac it to Crop Rotation if I don't need it and it's an easy board-out in those matchups. On the other hand, the main is pretty tight and I'd probably have to cut Sylvan Scrying or Crucible for it, which I'd rather not. It probably comes down to meta. Obviously, Tabernacle's amazing vs Aether Vial decks, Dredge, Affinity, and Zoo. I'd guess it's also probably decent vs Reanimator. And obviously, Tabernacle's terrible vs Storm (unless they whiff and have to Empty the Warrens), Omniscience, Lands, and random combo. Stoneblade and Miracles are auto-wins anyway. So I'm wondering how good Tabernacle is in the Delver and Maverick matchups? Great or just mediocre?
My current list is:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
9 Forest
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
1 Sylvan Scrying
3 All Is Dust
4 Crop Rotation
3 Exploration
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard
3 Spine of Ish Sah
2 Powder Keg
2 Pithing Needle
3 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
Why don't you play Primeval Titan?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Not to sound biased, but it is probably the strongest card in a 12-post deck. It gains you insane amounts of life through Glimmerpost/Vesuva shenanigans and greatly accelerates the deck so you can play threats faster.
You might say that Crop Rotation does all that... what it doesn't do is provide you a tempo advantage because you never gain additional lands with Crop Rot, but you do with Primeval Titan.
I've been playing the Tabernacle main over the 4th Show and Tell.