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-i'll try cutting down on crimes and see how it feelsQuote:
Originally Posted by EdsonDettoni
-i was thinking of charm as a double duty card as a x/1 creature kill. Instant speed discard also comes in handy :)
-no, I didn't even think about wrench mind.
-brigdes is a good defensive card. Too defensive that I'm thinking I may also miss the chance to swing with totems and ghasts if there's a chance.
Words of waste + Phyrexian Arena for modern, perhaps?
Isn't words of waste illegal for modern? Its a good card to include for the discard route though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
You are right; the filter must have been bugged.
Oh well, here is another card that may have potential:
Delirium Skeins. I see it as Pox for modern. With recurring creatures and dredge cards it could be powerful.
I tested a modern pox deck, played it onyl a few times but won them all. Maybe we ca nbring that to legacy with some changes.
The list:
3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
1 raven's crime
4 smallpox
3 abrupt decay
1 darkblast
3 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 lingering souls
1 eternal witness
1 worm harvest
1 unburial rites
3 life from the loam
4 grisly salgave
lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
2 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 horizon canopy
1 forest
1 dakmor salvage
1 treetop village
2 tectonic edge
1 ghost quarter
8 swamp
I think one of the main factors it worked is because nobody expected it.
Caould we adapt that into legacy?
1) nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by abetman
2) ok.
3) You are right.
Another Tuesday tourney. Only got 2-2, but the deck perform well. An unexpected problem turned up in the counter-top deck, however. The original deck is supposed to be very strong against it, but mine is weak.
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
2 Nether Spirit
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
2 Wrench Mind
3 Darkblast
4 Dark Ritual
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
18 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
SB
4 Powder Keg
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Perish
3 Surgical Extraction
I guess it's the lack of wastelands and Sink Holes that makes the match-up, vs counter-top, worse than it should be.
There is room in the deck for new cards to rectify this; the Wrench Minds was mostly a way to fill up the numbers due to lack of ideas.
Also, I am wondering if the rituals are needed. They don't win games.
To make it easier to figure out the weak cards and find replacements I tried rate them:
Darkblast
Smallpox
Sensei’s Divining Top
Pox
Bloodghast
Tombstalker
Dakmor Salvage
Dark Ritual
Nihilith
Innocent Blood
Hymn to Tourach
Nether Spirit
The Top is high on the list, Hymn to Tourach is not.
I guess that shows my thinking on discard, that it is not very powerful any longer. Not like the pox effects are.
The Nether spirits are simply win conditions. As such they can be replaced by anything.
Lastly the Dark rituals. While they allow casting expensive spells, when you have destroyed your own lands, rituals do not any longer equals "swamp, Ritual, negator, Go!"
Of course, now I need to find better replacements.
I like the fact you rate SDT rather high on your list. Would you state that SDT would be a permanent in Pox? Did you had the feeling it gave the deck an edge?
I recall keeping a one-land hand, something I would not normally do, because I also had a top.
It was like having serum powder:laugh:
Still, not proper card draw, and it is not as good filter effect as that which is employed by blue decks.
However it give you a feeling you have control over your draws. This is an illusion because you lack the blue manipulation elements.
Were it comes in handy is mid-and late game when you have failed to kill the opponent and need find more threats.
Phyrexian arena is probably better, but the game plan is not exactly to win by card advantage. Casting cost is also high, btw.
I well keep my two for now, and see no reason to ever have four.
I wouldn't be surprised if you get equally good results with Mishra's bauble that the original deck designer did.
I'm kind of surprised those 3 are on the bottom considering they're probably the strongest cards in the deck as far as my rating goes. Practically all lists run 4 Bloods, 4 Hymns, and 1-2 Spirits. Why are they so bad if they're considered Pox staples?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
The purpose of this rating exercise was to improve the deck in the same way you do your sideboarding: figure out what cards are weakest and what substitutions would be stronger.
Remember: all the cards are strong, the list merely reflect their worth in my deck design.
Innocent blood is low because it not a win con and just do one thing. Of course, since it so good at the only thing it does AND I need lots of creature kill, they will remain in my deck. Same can be said for hymn to Tourach except that it is not a card you want to draw when in top deck mode, unlike innocent blood. (bad top deck and being not a creatures kill is the main reasons for looking for replacements for it)
I would happily replace both by four more smallpox!
Nether spirit is there to increase the creature count. As a win con he is to weak:/but numbers matter more. Of course, even he will be replaced by better cards if I find any
One could think that without hymn and duress that the deck would be more vulnerable to combo, right? But that depends on the design of the whole deck. Also, it may be a design decision to make the deck stronger against non combo. (I am thinking of omniscience as the primary combo threat)
Here is what I consider the core of the original Days of Disease deck:
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
3 Darkblast
2 Dakmor Salvage
18 Swamp
This is 47 cards. Not tourney legal no matter how try look at it. Pity, 16% Pox effects had been quite nice.
So, from here I can go two ways; either increase the number of cards, but keep the proportions of categories, or take the opportunity to be creative.
I have 13-14 slots to fill with brutality so the later seem more fun!
I will continue this post later on, but in the meantime I am interested in hearing any crazy idea you guys got^^
Well, I wouldn't say it's crazy, but your land count is extremely low running 8 Pox. Even with the Salvages, CITP is very dangerous in Legacy. If you're not in a combo meta, forgoing targeted handkill is nice but ultimately, Hymn to Tourach is mandatory. Why? Well, Pox is a card advantage deck in a different flavor from Blue. Instead of Ancestral Recall or Concentrate or Divination, we use 8 Pox and Hymn to Tourach since we're spending less cards than them. Unfortunately, the blue adv. (hard draw) vs. Pox Advantage (Cards binned) has a better performance late game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
So, we need permanents on the field to lock our opponent. Liliana of the Veil comes to mind and Trinisphere or Nether Void. Since we can't use hard draw, we need to punish their topdeck.
Your advocating an aggro Pox by this list so I'd go the Land Destruction route. Why? Suspend / play a threat on turns 1-2 using Dark rit or hard casting, then start going after their land hard with Sinkholes, Poxes, and Rancid Earth. If all goes well, they'll be dead before they can topdeck a land to stabilize.
Land Destruction Pox threat to consider? Epochrasite. He can come out turn 1-2 and comes back with a vengeance from Innocent Blood/Poxing.
Citp?
It is a mistake, it's CIPT (Comes Into Play Tapped)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I really dig the idea of using Epochrasite, never heard of the card before (not suprising, there are too many sometimes) I would also try Mox Diamond, love the idea to go all the way. Instead of Rancid Earth I would opt for Ghost Quarter, backed with Life from the Loam. Note that this is just a rough list: I would like to add some Liliana's for instance.
4 Bloodghast
4 Epochrasite
3 Life from the Loam
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Hymn
2 Top
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Mox Diamond
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
8 Swamp
Do not run G/B Pox without Abrupt Decay. It address the things mono-B can't handle. I used to run a Loam Pox with it but discovered myself durdling too much with the Dredge. If I wanted lands to come back, I have to say Crucible of Worlds is superior. At least you won't end up dredging precious disruption cards while doing so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
Let me know how this list goes after fighting a few people with it. I never did get G/B to work. Heavy creature rush down meta forced me to go the mono-B route and I found it to be much more consistent. That and Mono-B gets FAR better use of Dark Ritual and Liliana whereas the Green splash doesn't.
From what other people have posted, (Ali Aintrazi's article comes to mind) Cursed Scroll and Life from the Loam do NOT like each other at all. Be wary of that. ^_^
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/5294139 4th list down, gotta love seeing that. ^.^
Another interesting primer
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=483236
old thread here:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=158085
Glad to see that Reid Duke still carries some love for the Smallpox.Quote:
Originally Posted by feline
Hardcast Batterskull is a cute addition, but he'd better hope he doesn't dredge it away by accident.
Edit: I tried it on Tapped Out. That is a painfully slow build, even by grindy Pox standards, unless you happen to get your lone Batterskull. I'm surprised he doesn't have Bured Ruin to get it back in case he accidentally dredges it away.
Yeah, I already read some of the discussions. On some issues they have some interesting point of views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Also love the writting about the math behind casting Pox in the old threat :)
So one thing: Hymn vs Targeted Discard... Opinions?
Edit: anybody ever heard of Tarmopox in Modern? For reference: http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=194&meta=51
Looks like ordinary BG Pox. Not sure how good it is ( I don't play modern).
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
3 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
3 Wrench Mind
3 Darkblast
4 Dark Ritual
18 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
I am currently thinking on this configuration for a bigger tourney this saturday.
SDT was a bit clunky, especially that all cards I find are good cards;). I rather play real card draw because in some match ups it is more important to draw more threats than the opponent can find answers.
Geralf is like a Soul Spike on legs. I have played that card before in my old deck, and, while not a Griselbrand, people tend to complain that he is hard to get rid off. The card offers me a way to easier kill someone using pox only, if that situation arise. (Ensnaring bridge and all that)
Wrench mind is extra discard vs anythinbg but dredge. I figure it helps the combo and Blade match ups.
Sideboard:
I have seven cards that are less useful vs combo and control; Innocent Blood and Darkblast. I would probably keep the blast as they help me get ghasts and Tombstalkers into play. So this give me four slots for fun things like... Duress? It hits both arche types hard.
I don't need extra vs burn. Duress works there too, btw.
I think I will play at least three Perish. Maybe four. It is too unfair not to play if one got the cards.
Graveyard hat vs dredge. I got surgicals, and they will do for now. Also Powder Kegs vs Affinity. Note that I do not specifically expect these two deck types to appear, but if they should i would be screwed:P
That's it. I figure the SB is like at 60% optimization, and could be improved a lot. Therefore are other ideas for the Sideboard much welcome!
I'd recommend Leyline of the Void with a Dark Rit config. No other deck bins cards as fast as Pox does. The ONLY decks I ever have problems with are those that utilize the grave. Be it Lavamancer, Threshold, Crucible of Worlds, Life from the Loam, etc. Bar none, there is no better GY killer than the Leyline which saddens me as nobody wants the [must be in opening hand] stipulation. I suppose the other options I find as my 5th GY hater is Nihil Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt. I run Perish as a 2-of. My other Creature hate is 2 Spinning Darkness and 1 Tainted Aether in the sideboard. (T. Aether is funny vs. decks that flood *see dredge* and aether vial)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Trying to implement hard draw in Pox is like trying to have your cake and eat it too. Blue is known for pricey but *hard* card advantage. Standstill, Ancestral Visions, Concentrate, Accumulated Knowledge, Fact or Fiction, etc. This card advantage is "Draw advantage". Pox's advantage is what I'd call "toast" advantage. You toast cards that are expendable or returnable to Poxes and your opponent loses real cards. Hymn to Tourach is a solid example. Nether Spirit is tempo/card advantage as well in the face of non-exile removal.
Double edged sword however, as that means your deck on the whole is weaker per card than other decks, but you should get more advantage and quality from your spells, despite them having weaker power levels.
Actually I will run a list with no rituals. I upped the land count to 24 instead and that feels good (when I goldfish at least). Feline made a good suggestion.
Nihil spell bomb seems like one could play one or two main deck even.
Maybe I should buy four leylines. But they seem too focused on anti-dredge.: /
Last Saturday i attended a legacy tourney that was held as side event for a world championship qualifier (Olle Råde won that one btw) .
We were only 14 players, and everyone seemed to play combo:p
My result sucked but I don't mind much; the experience is valuable. I played this deck, which is much like the other I have posted here except the increased land count.
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Nihilith
3 Geralf’s Messenger
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
4 Innocent Blood
3 Wrench Mind
3 Darkblast
22 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
SB
4 powder keg
3 perish
2 surgical extraction
2 leyline of the void
4 duress
My first opponent played Cloudpost I think (Emrakul,crop rotation and all that).
My mistakes was in not realising that 1. He run no counters, and the implication of that, and 2. That every turn I play pox and discard is a timewalk for him. I counted to much on pox effects to slow him, but actually drawing a pox would have been devastating. Smallpox didn't do the job.
I think I met Dredge next.
He won the first game.
In the second he played cabal teraphy and forced me to cast my surgical extraction on
Golgari grave troll. I would have preferred to remove ichorid and bridge from below, still, it was enough to stop him.
Third game I started with a leyline in play. My poor opponent could only beat down with imps, and scooped the cards when Tombstalker got serious about it.
He told me that since he saw surgical game two, he reasoned that I had no leylines and boarded out his enchantment hate!
My randomness won it for me.
Next i met a met a local player that attended with his ANT. It didn't go that well despite all my discard.
1-2, and opponent four played Stoneblade control = 1-3
I played an extra game vs the control player and forgot tell the judges I would drop, so I played also in the last round. I figured it would be over quickly either way:P
Opponent five played some kind of artifact combo. I saw Metalworker so perhaps it was what is called MUD?
Anyway, only Null Rods would have stopped him.
Conclusions on performance so far: My deck work well vs Creature based decks like Elves and RUG. Even decks that include SFM for batterskull.
Batterskull can be managed if my opponent do not run counterspells.
BW control can dig after answers to my win conditions because they are creature based. Knowing if my opponent have counterspells is important so I don't play pox into one. Then again i boarded in my Duressses against the stoneblade player, and ripped his hand apart. He still won.
Cloudpost can die to better deck and better strategy.
I am thinking on speed as being key against these two decks. But my creatures are not that fast...
Pox's original design was to give you decent matchups game one. By having no targeted discard game 1, the combo/control decks cut you in half. I'd recommend ditching Geralf's Messenger and 1 tombstalker for 4 Inquisition of Kozilek.
Pox does NOT have to be fast. But it needs lock pieces. Trying to design it closer to an aggro deck (more than 10 threats) causes Pox to cut you down quite hard as well.
Lock pieces I've used well in the past is Trinisphere, Tainted Aether, Engineered Plague, Leyline (woot leyline win gg), and Liliana of the Veil.
Also, you're playing against counterspells incorrectly. My Magic buddy/coach clearly pointed out that by waiting to 'play around' counterspells, you sell precious turns to your opponent. Does that mean I play into Daze all the time? You bet your arse...
The vast majority of counter spell decks do not run more than 12 counters from what I can recall. Pox supposed to run almost 20 MUST COUNTER spells. Inquisition, Hymn, Sinkhole, Smallpox, and Pox. Force of Will is a joke. Ask anyone with FoW what it's like to get Hymned after it. Not fun ^_^
Black supposed to be the most 'honest' color. LoL. ALWAYS call an opponents bluff and MAKE him counter your spells. Since all of your spells are 2cmc or less, you'll be on the winning end in all cases. That and watching an opponent's island disappear for a turn for Daze brings a smile to any pox player's face running Sinkhole.
Yeah, I have run spot discard before to good effect, and may do so again.
As for UW control it doesn't matter trying to force it; they have to much cantrips to dig for answers.
A big creature may attack once or twice before getting removed. Meanwhile the control player build up his mana for Jace. GG
I have phyrexian revokers that I may substitute for the messengers. They die to all my sacrifice effects, but that is OK if one think of them as timewalks on legs.
Another idea is to play Hatred. Against non-blue combo this is should be quite safe.
I may make another try with profane command. I didn't realise you can choose
The same effect twice. Spending four mana to kill two SFM is nice.
Cantrips can't save you from Pox. You're running 8 of them. The reason they have answers is cause you chose the creature route instead of the *can't be sacrificed and dodges pox fx* threats. Rack/Shrieking Afflictions is superior with all your discard. Your fear is misplaced. They're losing a card, a creature, and a land. They have to cantrip THREE TIMES to recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
They will cast Jace if you let them build mana, so I suggest removing 1 Pox and 3 Wrench Mind for 4 Sinkholes (or 4 Rancid Earth as its threshold is its only saving grace for 1 more cmc)
Pithing Needle won't die to sac effects. ^_^
You say you hate counterspells but think of Hatred? I'd say not to go that route if counters and burn even exist in your meta. The original Pox thread specifically stated that the deck works best with 8-10 threats with the rest being a barrage of disruption. Running creatures to run Hatred doesn't make it a traditional control Pox anymore but an Aggro Pox. Sadly, it's never done well in other people's experience as well as my own.
I don't think you can use the same effect twice. It says "choose two" but I'm not a judge so I'm not certain. Spending 4 mana is very unlikely in an 8 Pox deck.
The card list you've posted is Aggro so little things like Bloodghast won't cut it. For the sake of speed, you'll be playing Pox arse-backwards. Play/suspend threats first. Consider workhorse threats that can be played (cheated) for 2 mana or less:
Epochrasite
Nihilith
Tombstalker
All of them hit hard and work well in certain time frames. Epochrasite is excellent turn 2-3 and then you start Poxing them to death. Nihilith should be cast asap and after several Poxes should be the only thing on the field turn 5-6. Tomby is Tomby. ^_^
I went 2-1-1 today. As usual I stomp on Canadian ***** and Elves combo. My only loss was to storm.
I think I will focus my sideboard to fight combo, which is the weak match up. Thorn of Amethyst,, phyrexian revoker, Duress, leyline of the void etc.
Damn. The 3 most pronounced weaknesses in Pox are Graveyard Use (countered by Leylines), Burn (countered by faster disruption/Sun Droplet ^_^), and True Draw (Concentrate, STANDSTILL!, Divination)
One of my friends built a budget form of Landstill. Standstill is insane. I know to break it early but I'm wondering if there's a way to punish it. After extensive searching, I only found Underworld Dreams, but it seems kind of awkward for what it does, though I'm sure that Ad Nauseum decks would love to see it turn 1 via dark ritual... :cool:
Any ways to punish someone for 'excessive drawing' that Pox can deal with?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
What do you think about : Chains of Mephistopheles ?
A counter is not always the right way to go. Using card draw yourself may be better, for example.
Another plan is beat down with Mishra's factory. Great vs standstill!
Misinformation is a something I would like to try.
This is weird. Standstill.deck are usually good matchups for pox. If you have the usual waste+factory package, alongside bloodghast or nether spirit, a resolved standstill is at least 50/50 if not slighlty in your favor.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Not sure what's weird about it. The matchup becomes even game 2 when I can Leyline his Crucible of Worlds recursion. Game one I MIGHT win if I can keep him off his 3rd land to prevent the crucible from ever hitting the field but it's hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cthuloo
I do run Mishra's / Waste and Cursed Scroll to shoot his manlands, but that crucible! lol. Liliana of the Veil definitely pulls weight no question but again, the hard draw, is there anything besides Underworld Dreams?
Reid Duke himself said he feared the UW match with things like Land Tax etc. This is just as nasty. Thanks for your input btw.
You assume you can play underworld dreams before he play standstill, and that it will not be countered. Also,do you really want it in main deck?
I was testing the deck a little.
My current list looks like this:
Deck (60)
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Wasteland
4x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Polluted Delta
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
1x Nether Spirit
2x Crucible of Worlds
2x Cursed Scroll
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Dark Ritual
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
3x Sinkhole
3x Innocent Blood
1x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
3x Thorn of Amethyst
2x Pithing Needle
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Engineered Plague
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Krosan Grip
Any thoughts? Thanks for your help!
Are you sure to play 23 land? Lot of double black, why not the 4th Urborg? Maybe a little more green sources?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighning Bebbi
Seems solid, but a lot of double black...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighning Bebbi
Also, do you really need three SDT? I rather would -1 SDT and +1 Innocent Blood. Why one Seize?
Maybe something like Perish, Dystopia? Green aldo gives you Pulse, Deed, Loam... No love there? Than again, SB are always meta-choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighning Bebbi
On other news: finally got my hands on two Nether Void, thanks to a little bit of trading and a little bit of cash :))
Don't see the need for dark rituals. Replace them with dark blasts and swamps for more early game creature removal and consistency.