[Deck] Angel Stompy

My main thing with the Kami is I see alot of people not get a turn 1 bird, and drop a turn 2 SotF. In these cases they are tapped out for the Kami to swing in and take care of it. And that is the end of it till they see an Eternal Witness or another SotF. The first game will more than likely be difficult, but after you board in, games 2 and 3 should be a breeze.
But the main thing is speed, whether it slows them down a turn or not, being able to kil off the survival right after it has been played (turn 2) is alot better than kill it off turn 3 or 4 or 5. Since they have already searched for what they need and will just kill you(or just be a threat) with what they have. But hey, just my opinion... :p

If your going to move Kami in, thats a metagame decision, what your replacing with is your own choice, but I think I would like a guaranteed disenchant for an earlier survival and keeping the creature base where it is. If your going to face survival, take out some creatures for Kami, sure it's a hard choice, but if you insist on running Kami, it's a wise choice.

If you want sideboard slots dedicated to hating out Survival, Erase/Wipe Clean seem better than Hearth Kami since it cuts the number of Survivals they're running almost in half.

I believe we're talking about Kami of Ancient Law not Hearth Kami...
I have had positive testing with maindecked Kami's versus a survival enviroment, they replace 3 creatures I run (simply personal opinion on which to remove) and they have allowed a much easier time against any such deck. They also haven't been that bad as simply a 2/2 for 2 mana despite the lack of Pro Red on them. Thats why I'm only running 3 though, and that IS what mother of runes is for is it not..
Does anyone else have any positive feedback running them or is this all just speculation?

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

I'm very much looking forward to GodZilla's perpsective on our developments as well.

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I haven't had much time for testing lately, Scrumm, so the following comments are based essentially on first impressions:

1. We agree that there should unequivocably be 4 StP.

2. 2 True Believers main don't make sense to me. What matchups do they significantly improve?

3. Devout Witness as a one-of seems like a mistake. The deck is built around redundancy. The reduction of many 4-of's to 3-of's in order to accommodate 1 and 2-of's strikes me as counterintuitive.

4. Less than 4 Parallax Wave seems like a mistake to me in nearly any meta, short of a completely combo-dominated meta, which to my understanding doesn't exist.

5. Anything less than 4 Angels is blasphemy.

6. Auriok Champion: I get that you're in an extremely Sligh-heavy meta, but are these really necessary? I don't know that I've ever lost a game to a mono-red deck with Angel Stompy, short of a poor draw on my part and a god draw on theirs. Do you really find yourself having enough trouble racing burn to warrant their inclusion?

7. Soltari Visionary: In a very Survival-heavy meta, I could see this being a decent choice, but the loss of ability to remove artifacts is significant and deserves attention. The Disenchant/Kami/Soltari slot is almost entirely a metagame choice. Further, I concur with Matt's assertion that Visionary is dead under Frog lock. What's the solution there?


Again, these are first impressions, so I'm interested in hearing further reasoning on these issues. Most importantly, I'd like as clear and concise an answer as I can get to the following questions (and they're not rhetorical): What matchups are significantly improved by your changes? What matchups do you feel are compromised by these changes? Essentially, what makes these changes necessary and/or worthwhile?

OK, I've read the whole thread, and if anyone's listening, I have
a few questions.

1) Cataclysm? Seems like it would be a complete beating with parallax wave, and have a similar effect to armageddon without it.

2) Fetchlands? Seems like responding to you own fetch with tithe be good times.

thanks in advance.

There isn't really a point to putting a little lockdown combo in the deck because it's just a win more. The only reason Geddon is even boarded is to fix little control matchups where it would be impossible to hit the field with BOTH lock affects.
As far as fetches are concerned the land isn't something to mess with. You already have a little too little land in the deck and thinning it out more then the tithes already do isn't such a good idea as you usually wanna get between 4-6 land in the late game.
Tithe even grabbin gone land is just sweet so there is no reason to further mess with the lands.
Another problem with fetchies is that if you start with a one fetchie hand and you know your opponent is going first on game 1 that might be reason so mulligan because you never know when a random stifle may come and ruin game 1 for you.

Has anyone tested Scour versus Survival? It seems very effective, as this deck can reach 4 mana fairly quickly. Is there any reason this wouldn't be run over other enchantment destruction, seeing as it completly neuters their deck and their witness's. I'll go test it out unless some one has a convincing arguement against it.

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Originally Posted by Aeneas

Has anyone tested Scour versus Survival? It seems very effective, as this deck can reach 4 mana fairly quickly. Is there any reason this wouldn't be run over other enchantment destruction, seeing as it completly neuters their deck and their witness's. I'll go test it out unless some one has a convincing arguement against it.

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You don't win when you cast that 4 CC spell, like you would when, say, morphing an Angel. I also should bring up the suttle point that the only good way to get rid of Survival fast engouth and consistantly engouth is Erase. That's still too narrow, however.

Soltari Visionary has been my weapon of choice vs Survival as of late for many reasons ...

1. Recurring removal of Survival is key.

2. At a 3cc, lots of time he comes out before any sort lock or loop or recursion can be created. If only he costed 2W, he would be perfect for the deck.

3. Shadow + Mask = My draw engine. He just gives me a another good target for Mask to equip.

4. And last and least-most ... He's still a 2/2 beater over the 2/2 suicide-diver that the Kami is.

Your taking the survival issue way out of context. I own both ATS and angel stompy, The deck does not need survival to win. Secondly visionary isn't that great and should not be main decked, not that many decks other than survival use enchantments that ruin you. I don't even think he deserves a SB slot, I tested him in board and wasn't to impressed, by them time he swings turn 3-4 ATS and/or R/G has an answer. all you can do is kill there early manabase, and pray you draw a disenchant effect from sideboard. Why not abolish or aura of silence. both fairly cheap both can be effective turn 2 when survival is weakest.
The deck has other issues than survival based decks now lets move on with a different topic. Discuss the control problem the deck has control in my metagame smashes it horribly, what could be some possible options?

If you want to ruin control based decks run vials. Just because everything doesn't cost the same doesn't mean this won't work.

It's been my experience that you shouldn't have to worry much about the control matchup.
Play your equips, play one threat, equip him and beat: when he dies force another threat through, repeat until opponent is dead.

Disk ruins your day there, most smart control players run board sweepers.

Second sunrise vs. decks with sweepers? It fits the play mode of drop a few threats, sit back. You could even seem to overextend to invite the wreckage on your timetable.

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Second sunrise vs. decks with sweepers? It fits the play mode of drop a few threats, sit back. You could even seem to overextend to invite the wreckage on your timetable.

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Huh? The only instance this would work is if they cast Wrath of God. Otherwise, their sweeper comes back too, which doesn't do a whole lot of good, unless you swing lethal the following turn.

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Originally Posted by GodzillA

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Originally Posted by scrumdogg

I'm very much looking forward to GodZilla's perpsective on our developments as well.

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I haven't had much time for testing lately, Scrumm, so the following comments are based essentially on first impressions:

1. We agree that there should unequivocably be 4 StP.

2. 2 True Believers main don't make sense to me. What matchups do they significantly improve?

3. Devout Witness as a one-of seems like a mistake. The deck is built around redundancy. The reduction of many 4-of's to 3-of's in order to accommodate 1 and 2-of's strikes me as counterintuitive.

4. Less than 4 Parallax Wave seems like a mistake to me in nearly any meta, short of a completely combo-dominated meta, which to my understanding doesn't exist.

5. Anything less than 4 Angels is blasphemy.

6. Auriok Champion: I get that you're in an extremely Sligh-heavy meta, but are these really necessary? I don't know that I've ever lost a game to a mono-red deck with Angel Stompy, short of a poor draw on my part and a god draw on theirs. Do you really find yourself having enough trouble racing burn to warrant their inclusion?

7. Soltari Visionary: In a very Survival-heavy meta, I could see this being a decent choice, but the loss of ability to remove artifacts is significant and deserves attention. The Disenchant/Kami/Soltari slot is almost entirely a metagame choice. Further, I concur with Matt's assertion that Visionary is dead under Frog lock. What's the solution there?


Again, these are first impressions, so I'm interested in hearing further reasoning on these issues. Most importantly, I'd like as clear and concise an answer as I can get to the following questions (and they're not rhetorical): What matchups are significantly improved by your changes? What matchups do you feel are compromised by these changes? Essentially, what makes these changes necessary and/or worthwhile?

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Sorry about the delay in responding, the holidays are not conducive to long, reasoned responses for those of us outside of the student life :cool: Let me respond to your concerns as well as I can, although pohlo probably has more relevant information than I do.

1) agreed, 4 STP is a necessity in this environment. The problem was that I had 3 extra when I handed Gunnari the deck & he had to find & fit a fourth one.

2) True Believers are specifically for combo, and if I expected heavy Brain Freeze I would be running them as a four of. They also make the red based matchup even better (although that really isn't necessary) :cool: Mom + Believer makes a very difficult scenario for Brain Freeze.

3)Don't look at Devout Witness as a 1 of, since she truly wasn't. She was simply a different form of the whole Disenchant/Abolish/Aura of Silence/Soltari Visionary spectrum of artifact & enchantment control. She has since been cut, although on board, re-usable control that can swing (or block...) is an idea worth considering.

4) I only had 3x Parallax Wave at the time (since remedied) and didn't realize I still had them! Pohlo found them in my binder (good man, somebody should have some clue where my cards are....) and then went & bought the fourth at a later date. Quite frankly, the meta should be shifting more toward control and combo, which would dictate a shift away from the Wave. Look at the skyrocketing popularity of Brain Freeze.dec and Holy/Scepter/Welder type decks. Sometimes I try and idea for the sake of the idea, sometimes, I have a plan (or a vision...), and other times I simply don't have the cards for an exact copy of a deck. In the end we all have to run what we have....

5) See above....we didn't have 4 Angels at that point, since remedied. Agreed, but deck shouldn't absolutely need Angel or it is flawed and vulnerable.

6) Auriok Champion is the nutz draw against a heavy red environment and pretty good against random Black nonsense that crops up (still, probably until the end of time...and that WW has trouble dealing with, imo). Quite frankly, in an aggro heavy meta, how is gaining more life off both your critters and your opponents critters a bad thing? Admittedly, the card has been swapped out for Samurai of the Pale Curtain in the meantime, which has been testing well. But I love the Bikini Chick.....

7)Are we not in a SotF heavy meta? And while not able to hit artifacts, I am much more concerned about enchantments than artifacts in the meta as it stands. They are also part of a package, the other part of which hopefully can hit any problematic artifacts. Furthermore, Frog Lock doesn't bother me excessively. A) the opponent has to be running it - which isn't always the case B) the opponent has to get both elements in place C) the opponent then has to continually use said Frog-lock while I am developing my board. Sooner or later (probably sooner...) I will hit the STP or the Wave which renders the Frog useless for my Big Ass Strike. There are multiple options main deck to deal with Frog and boarding in Crypt makes it even less scary.
Banky is correct that Visionary is a nightmare for SotF when it gets active. They either must attempt Frog Lock or be in the unenviable position of getting back SotF every turn (impractical...). Visionary is a serious tempo advantage against SotF and a continual tempo advantage, not a 1 turn speedbump. Furthermore, like every other creature in the dekc, he has added utility.Everyone does something more than swing & look pretty. In the case of Visionary, even if the enchantment-whacking isn't enough, he has shadow. That makes him evasivy, which is fine normally but finger-licking fucktastic in a deck with SoFI and Mask of Memory. Synergy (and serendipity) should be the goal of every good deck, correct?

Well, if you attempt to StP or Wave the frog during their endstep, the Frog is either going to be removed or they will (most likely) sac the Frog in response. You the proceed with your turn and are open to attack them, hopefully with some SoFI/Mask equipped beats to draw you into a new Wave or StP to repeat during their next endstep.

If you are worried specifically about Spore Frog enough to board for it, you can board a numerous number of effects to keep the pesky thing from being around:

Samurai of the Pale Curtain: I like this guy, he has no evasion but 2/2 (Bushido 1, so effectively 3/3) for 2 mana isn't a bad body.... especially when he's got an almost-Planar Void attached to him. He's not as strong as your Pro-red beatsticks main, but if there are many a deck in your metagame that provide the need for graveyard hate, he may not be a horrible option to include as he doesn't drop your threat density any.

Funeral Pyre: I wouldn't suggest this unless you are supremely swarmed by SotF in your metagame and they're all packed with Froggie Recursion, because it is way too narrow. But used while Frog is in their yard, I would much rather give them a 1/1 Spirit token that does nothing but ping than let them have a recurring Fog Frog.

Tormod's Crypt: Broad and encompassing Grave hate, but with survival it's fairly easy to play around.

Just some suggestions, although, I still believe Frog Lock is too slow and vulnerable vs. AStompy.



Edited By CorruptedAngel on 1104858102

U use them against spore frog on their turn, so u can attack on yours =P

One think i dont get it is the decrees on the side, whats their use?

Whoa.
1. Please develop your posts further.
2. Use the shift key when appropriate
3. You're not on AIM. Please take the time to hit the two extra keys required to properly spell "you."
4. Be clear. What is the "them" that you are talking about?
5. Please carefully read all posts. Zilla explains ALL of his card choices.

Seriously, if you wish to continue to post on this board, you must follow our rules.

Peter_Rotten

Quite frankly I am not worried about frog lock for a multitude of reasons including, serious tempo loss to the SotF deck/player, ability to alpha strike anyway with Wave or STP, and synergy with Samurai of the Pale Curtain & Tormod's Crypt. Crypt is very good vs. SotF anyway and if you can catch as few as two main elements in the graveyard it is a successful enterprise (since you have invested 1 card and zero mana...). Samurai turns the Frog into a one-shot pony (mixed metaphor...I know...) and while not stopping the SotF engine does remove the abusiveness of Witnessing back elements from the board (including SotF if Visionary becomes active...). Finally, Wave does create a 1 turn window from under frog lock...for 3 turns. Will the Frog be sacced in response? Absolutely, but your Wave remains in play & active for several turns...

Decrees are a great weapon against control or any matchup that will degenerate into a stall. EOT Decree (not counterable & Stifles presence seems to be at an all-time low) for a metric asston of Soldier tokens wins many, many games. It is also one of the best ways to get around Nevy's Disk - still one of the best sweepers in the game, because if the Disk player drops it early, Angel Stompy has time to blow it up. EOT Decree doesn't leave time to drop & use the Disk effectively, thereby essentially neutralizing it.

You know, I used to not fear Frog Lock with this deck. Until I faced it. And lost. It's a serious pain in the ass. Rarely are you able to alpha strike in one turn with this deck, so StP isn't all that great. Also, with as much accelleration as R/G has, it's not very hard for them to eot Survival for Zealot, bring back Frog during upkeep, play Zealot, nail Wave, and play Frog. Basically, 8 disenchant effects and Geddon just doesn't cut it against SotF. You really do need some graveyard hate against them. I'm torn between the Samurai, because it beats, and Honor the Fallen, because it'll get everything else if you draw it later. And it'll gain you a little bit a life as a fringe benefit.

I'm rather surprised that no one has mentioned Orim's Chant. It helps force things against control, is a veritable Time Walk against most decks, and can be a nightmare to play around for combo. It doesn't help much against Survival or other aggro decks, but I think it should at least be given consideration for the sideboard.

Due to the style of Angel Stompy, it would probably be Abeyance over Orim's Chant, and as far as that goes, there simply isn't room in the deck, In an all control environment there are just things I would rather run in it's place.

Ok, I'll admit that I'm too lazy to read all 8 pages of this thread, so this issue might have been cleared up earlier, but has anyone considered splashing blue in this deck? Serendib Efreet is a strong choice for this deck, especially since you can't have Angel in your opening hand every game, and Dib's fat ass makes him tough to kill. It would also give you access to Meddling Mage, which was some good last time I checked.

You should REALLY playtest this deck before suggesting a color splash. If you have, you would know about the color problem that sometimes arises about getting WW on the second turn. Adding a second color would only worsen this fact but diminishing your already slim base of white sources.

Tundras wouldn't be a really huge deal to get U for Meddling Mage/Serendib and is fetchable by Tithe, but it increases your vulnerability to Wasteland, and as such, probably is not the best idea in the world.

I did test blue. Then I gave up on it. Splashing blue waters down threats, your draw is actually WEAKER, and you weaken matchups that were strong before the splash.
My blue build ran 4 Brainstorms, 2 FoF, 3 Cunning Wishes, 2 Leaks, and 4 Force of Wills.

Still the deck just doesn't have the same strength when you splash, and not to mention the mana base is weaker.

See, I'm not suggesting blue for control aspects, I'm suggesting blue for more solid threats. You could add the blue without removing any white sources, just 4 tundras, maybe cut 2 plains for fetches, which also have nice synergy with tithe(fetch, tithe in response). You're only looking at like 8 blue spells you'd wanna run, 4 Dibs and 4 Mages.

The problem arises from the added fragility of the manabase. Currently the only targets for Wasteland are the Ancient Tombs, which can either be held for a one turn effect or dropped for an early burst of speed that the other deck will have trouble overcoming. Wasteland seems to fluctuate in amount of use & if you see little Wasteland in your meta, try the blue. Please let us know how it works, but it seems both dangerous & unnecessary.

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My blue build ran 4 Brainstorms, 2 FoF, 3 Cunning Wishes, 2 Leaks, and 4 Force of Wills.

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Gimbles my man, I wouldn't call that 'splashing' by any means.
:D

I've been following this thread from day 1, and everytime we start talking about some of the deck's weak matchups, I've been asking myself, "Could meddling mage help that?"

Most of the time, the answer is yes.

Bonuses: Mage is a top-tier card that could be extremely useful, and mega-powerful when protected by Mom.

Drawbacks: Yup, wasteland is a beeyatch. As is stifle, if you choose to go that route with the fetchlands (personally I wouldn't).

In addition, you have to take out 4 damn good creature cards to fit them in. I think this is the part that hurts the worst.

I run 2 builds of this deck in apprentice to test against. The first one looks identical to Zilla's list, and the second is -4 plains, +4 tundra, -4 lions, +4 mages.

Some games, you can't even tell the difference between the two.

But there's games where the mage pops up, and if you have a decent idea of what your opp. is running, he pays off in spades.

Besides all that, pitching a meddling mage to your chrome mox (which I have done on occasion, with 2 in my opening hand) makes your mox into a tundra, and you don't have to worry about wasteland (just oxidize, disenchant, shatter .... ).

Anyway, just my 2¢

HM

Hehe, I guess mine is more of a mix then a splash. The thing is, I found when running blue that with the fast mana I can produce is was foolish not to abuse FoF so I would at least try finding room for that if you run with the blue splash, it brings up consistency and quality of hand late game.

I don't think this build needs blue. It has enough card-drawing through equipment, and adding counters n' what not would only dillute the deck. Brainstorm can't be abused either, because, as far as I know, most AS builds don't run fetches(granted, they do run Tithes, I guess...). From what I've seen, AS has enough answers already to deal with threats, and wants very much to drop an early Angel. It wants to be the aggressor, instead of responding to most threats.

Of course, I don't have much experience with the deck, but I think it's better off as mono-W.

An experiment with W/u sounds like an interesting idea, although again it damages the manabase. I like the idea of not running fetches, since you really want as much mana as the deck will give you (and the deck runs Tithe, a fetch that can't be Stifled....). Mage under a Chrome Mox could work (although don't you want to be casting the little weasel? Isn't that the point of screwing with the deck? It also benefits the deck against combo, if you know which key piece to call, and has broader application against the rest of the field than my idea of True Believer (although True Believer might still make my sideboard...since multiple options versus combo & burn are good...). Savannah Lions are the obvious drop for any piece that upgrades what the deck needs to do, we dropped them long ago for Samurai of the Pale Curtain.

Gimbles, what you have is actually a completely different deck. Maybe you should start a thread with the decklist, how your version is testing, and explanations of why you chose that version over traditional Angel Stompy? It would be fun to see how many cases of parallel development occur :cool:

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although don't you want to be casting the little weasel? Isn't that the point of screwing with the deck?

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You're absolutely right, Scrumdogg. But the opening hand was looking something like this:

Plains
Chrome Mox
Medd. Mage
Medd. Mage
Soltari
Silver Knight
Parallax Wave

So I had a choice. I could send it back and mulligan down to six, or I could drop a mage to the mox, start dropping threats, and hope for the best.

Since I was fiddling around in apprentice in a 'controlled lab environment', I decided to roll with it and hope for another mana and mask of memory to put on the soltari ... if you get that going, the rest will take care of itself, IMO.

Another small factor to take into consideration is the metagame value, ie, if you drop a tundra (or tithe for one), your opponent is most likely thinking "Blue/White Control" or "Random Ass Deck", when you're really running "Stompy with a twist".

It's only a small advantage, but I'll take every one I can get.

Cheers,
HM

First Off, Godzilla, your deck is really nice.
Second, The only two weaknesses Ive found is Solidarity (I decided here just to loose) And Mirror. I think finding something that could give you the edge in a mirror match would be great. Null Rod could be removed (in my opinon) since the only two decks its stops is Ravager and Belcher. And I dont see why you have a problem with these to board in in the first place. (Ravager seems like an almost auto win and belcher can be circumvented with Removal/TB) Anyway, to the point, whats the purpose of Null Rod and what can you do against mirror match? Or am I just a complete scrub who should never play Magic...

The only thing I could truely see sideboarding for the mirror would be Sword of Light and Shadow. But Angel Stompy is so scarse that it isnt needed for the board. Other cards that come to mind are, Eight and a Half Tails, Reciprocate, and Wing Shards. But other than that, it is just like every other aggro mirror, you race for the win.

For the mirror I've put wrath in my sideboard. If you hold back your serious threats and dont overextend you can blindside your opponent with something completely unnexpected, then swing the game in your favor. It makes you play a bit differently, but not bad at all. Instead of playing your creatures first you play your equipment. It really works quite well, but it all comes down to wheather or not you see enough aggro in your meta.

Why not just up the Parallax Wave count, or run even run Topple so you can actually put early/mid-game pressure on while still being able to deal with their threats? Wrath seems fine and all, but it essentially causes you to change the entire focus of the deck in the mirror.

Wouldn't Radiant's Judgment be a better selection then that of Topple? I mean the Judgement basically does the same thing, and you can cycle it if its dead. Another reason Radiant's Judgment might possibly be a better choice is because your able to target what creature you want to kill.

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Originally Posted by finley

Wouldn't Radiant's Judgment be a better selection then that of Topple? I mean the Judgement basically does the same thing, and you can cycle it if its dead. Another reason Radiant's Judgment might possibly be a better choice is because your able to target what creature you want to kill.

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The reason why I suggested Topple is because you won't always be wanting to destroy an Exalted Angel, but rather an opposing Soltari Priest, Silver Knight, or other low-power creature, clearing the path for your threats and safely being able to put pressure on the opponent.

Well Radiant's Judgment might be the better suggestion simply because usually a Sword of Fire and Ice will power up the creature enough the the Judgment can kill it, and as I stated before, you can always cycle it if its not useful. Not to mention, Instants > Sorceries, at least when it comes to killing one creature.