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LOOOL that's a very fair point. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
How did we manage to miss that?
Anyway, legal now and banned next round?
I think that might be the best solution.
Or we could rethink the entire banned list.
The thing is: half the cards on there aren't dangerous for 4CB anyway.
Fast mana is dangerous, but for instance card draw is mostly irrelevant.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
I didn't consider playing it or playing around it because the rules clearly said Legacy B/R. Mishra's Workshop and Sol Ring could also lead to powerful decks, but they're not Legacy legal either. Mental Misstep is quite powerful in this format. Some of the cards could safely be unbanned, but shouldn't that be mentioned beforehand?
I built my list to be legacy legal expect for the specific cards, had I known Vintage cards were legal I might have chosen differently then.
Oh well, guess I'll get a support ticket to have my entry fee returned /s
PirateKing
1. Asthereal (TO): Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (6)
---
3. Matsu: Both Racks get countered, but a 5/5 is fine too 6-0 (12)
4. CptHaddock: A Rack and Lupine Prototype gets countered, but the other Rack gets there before the Griffin be relevant 6-0 (18)
5. Taconaut: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you before Confiscate turns live 6-0 (24)
6. Mr. Safety: Ensnaring Bridge makes Lupine Protopype sad, but Racks beat Tongs because broken 6-0 (30)
7. Clx33: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (36)
8. Fallen_Empire: I explode 0-6 (36)
9. tescrin: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (42)
10. PapriNgomo: Scythe Leopard is a 4/4 at most, Lupine Prototype does just fine 6-0 (48)
11. ronco: Getting out both Racks sidesteps Nether Spirits eternal blocks, wins the race 6-0 (54)
12. JackaBo: Thought-Knot Seer dies unless it takes Lupine Prototype, either way Racks race well 6-0 (60)
13. H: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (66)
14. mistercakes: We trade 5 and 6 damage, you die in your upkeep seconds before I'm to die 6-0 (72)
15. Dan Pyre: Phyrexian Crusader is a 5 turn clock without blocks, Racks kill you in 4 6-0 (78)
16. kombatkiwi: Eternal blocks in spades, but Racks haven't been banned yet so... 6-0 (84)
17. Tylert: I explode without a permanent to my name 0-6 (84)
18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of Sanctity doesn't stop The Rack (had to check) 6-0 (90)
19. spartan117: Two Racks win 6-0 (96)
20. beardstorm: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (102)
21. phonics: Something gets Blackmailed, but what's left races faster 6-0 (108)
22. Sloshthedark: I play Lupine first OTP and win, Sphere locks me OTD, but slow playing Racks wins the race 6-0 (114)
23. JosefK: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4, solo Rack wins in 7 6-0 (120)
24. spirit of the wretch: I get to keep a single Rack which is enough 6-0 (126)
25. apple713: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (132)
26. Darklingske: Even not paying for Lupine Prototype doesn't change the math 6-0 (138)
27. FTW: Cabal Therapy with perfect info takes both Racks, but Lupine Prototype wins in 4 before Student can do anything but chump 6-0 (144)
28. Kap'n Cook: Something gets countered, but what doesn't kills you 6-0 (150)
150 points
Ban my deck
Question for AstherealQuote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
In this match would we go to stalemate because he isn't forced to play eureka? I can't tap out to attack for fear of eureka and he can't cast it for fear of tithe?
My list above. He's what I came to:Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
1.) Asthereal: I can Force in Dryads and race Boggle both on the play and the draw. 6-0 (6)
2.) PirateKing: I don't think I can win here. I have to counter the Prototype if I want to be able to win and then even holding Force of Will, both Racks will win the race, play and draw doesn't seem to matter. 0-6 (6)
3.) Matsu: Pretty sure I can't beat Missteps or Factory, play/draw doesn't matter. 0-6 (6)
4.) CptHaddock: Can't beat both Misstep and Force. 0-6 (6)
5.) Taconaut: Eventually lose to Griffin plus Confiscate. 0-6 (6)
6.) Mr. Safety: Force the Bridge, race the Tongs with Dryad, I don't think play/draw matters. 6-0 (12)
7.) Clx33: "H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - I force dryads, you force back, I can land a propaganda, but if you play nothing, if I play griffin, you force, then I lose my propagannda too force back, but your dryad coming down the next turn is too late. So you need to dryad earlier and not force my force, meaning you can force my griffin, and we draw. If i don't force drad and take some hits to land propaganda, I can't cast griffin with protection, so again, it's a draw" I tend to forget the option of do nothing, so this does seem it would be a draw. 2-2 (14)
8.) Fallen_Empire: Force the Torper Orb, don't he can do anything meaningful after. 6-0 (20)
9.) tescrin: EDIT: tescrin actually wins on the Play, playing a Factory, I play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, I can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so I'd have to pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if I trade yourself I lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 myself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and me at 0.
When I am on the play though Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw. 1-3 (21)
10.) PapriNgomo: Force Leopard, win with Dryads. 6-0 (27)
11.) ronco: Force of Will the Smallpox, win with Dryad. 6-0 (33)
12.) JackaBo: Force The Seer, win with Dryad. 6-0 (39)
13.) BYE: Myself.
14.) mistercakes: Force the Culling, win with Dryad. 6-0 (45)
15.) Dan Pyre: Force Crusader, win with Dryad. 6-0 (51)
16.) kombatkiwi: This one is actually rather complicated, probably need help getting this right. On the play, I play Trop into Dryad. He plays Bog tapped. I attack, putting him to 17. He untaps, if he plays Smallpox, I Spike it. If he plays Bitterblossom, I have to let it resolve. So, in the case of Smallpox first, it gets Spiked, and on my turn I attack him to 14. On his next turn, he cast Bitterblossom and I can't do anything. On my turn, I attack him to 11. His turn, make one Fairie, go to 10. My turn, I attack, he can't block or he gets no where, so he goes down to 8. His turn, he is at 7 and two has two fearies, so he can attack with one, putting me at 19. My turn, he can't profitably block, so he goes to 5. I think this ends up that once he has 3 Fearies to block with, he can't both block and attack back fast enough to win before he loses to his own Bitterblossom.
On the draw, though, he has the time to win, because he ends up with the three toekns to block while at 7. Which is better than when he was on the draw, so he will win. 3-3 (54)
17.) Tylert: Force the Eureka, win with Dryad. 6-0 (60)
18.) Ace/Homebrew: Force the Myth, win with Dryad. 6-0 (66)
19.) spartan117: Force the Vineyard, no way for him to activate the Village, win with Dryad. 6-0 (72)
20.) beardstorm: On the play, Dryad just directly races and win. On the Draw, Force the Spike to get Dryad and race to win. 6-0 (78)
21.) phonics: This one is a little complex too. I don't think I can win, because I can't beat Mishra's Factory. So, I can't stop the Rack through the Blackmail, so I lose in any case. 0-6 (78)
22.) Sloshthedark: I can't race the manlands. 0-6 (78)
23.) JosefK: On the play, I should win, because we have identical clocks, but mine comes out sooner. On the draw, he can snag my land or creature before I play it, so I have to Force. I think this means I am still a turn faster with my threat, but his hits on my upkeep, so I'd lose. 3-3 (81)
24.) spirit of the wretch: We can both stop each other's threat, so will just be a draw in every case. 2-2 (83)
25.) apple713: I believe this is a draw, because I can Force the Mana Tithe, but he can't attack with Factory past Dyrad and I can't attack past Factory myself. 2-2 (85)
26.) Darklingske: This is another complicated math one. I think I can Force the second Punishing Fire that will need to kill my Dryad, which will give me enough time to win before he can do it again (Hold needs to be tapped for 4 turns, so it's a 5 turn cycle). 6-0 (91)
27.) FTW: I don't think I can win on the play or the draw here, because I can't Force Student. 0-6 (91)
28.) Kap'n Cook: I can't beat Rampager and I can't force a draw because of Familiar. 0-6 (91)
I'm stupid and realized my list was bad the moment I sent it. Force Spike is useless and should be an unblockable threat. Oh well, it would have only done slightly better. 91 doesn't seem terrible though.
I actually think Force is OK, but Griffin is kind of stupid and OP, but likely The Rack should be banned too and Blackmail seems absurd because it can take lands.
Keep in mind, I wrote all this pre-coffee so that plus general stupidity likely accounts for any errors above.
Playing optimally, I'd think so.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Playing anything for either player results in a loss, so it's best case draw for both players.
Guess WOPR was right all along
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Not sure what this means.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
the only winning move is not to playQuote:
Originally Posted by H
Ah, ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
On a side note, I actually think Force of Will is "good for the format" and is only really absurd in the case where you have Griffin. Even so, those decks are painfully slow, so maybe they are OK.
Thanks to Asthereal who organized this awesome tornament!
My super lame deck gave 80 Points IICC
Player: Deck OTP OTD Points 1. Asthereal (TO): Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island L L 0 2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype L L 0 3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep W W 6 4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep L L 0 5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate L L 0 6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs W D 4 7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda L L 0 8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought W L 3 9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory W W 6 10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear W W 6 11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal W L 3 12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thought-knot-seer 13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads L L 0 14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator W L 3 15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader W W 6 16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox W W 6 17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn W W 6 18. Ace/Homebrew: Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized L L 0 19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin W W 6 20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim W L 3 21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack W L 3 22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance W L 3 23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack W L 3 24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker D L 1 25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void W L 3 26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, [cards]Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold W W 6 27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare W L 3 28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager L L 0 Results 80
Thoughts:
The deck wins on the play alot thanks to the built in Thoughtseize. I can not beat fow at all.
Please let me know if you want me to explain any of the results.
The rack and lupine prototype where cool tech!
Bans:
FOW is very strong, especially with Misthollow Griffin - One of them maybe need the axe?
Therapy and Blackmail should be banned if Thoughtseize is.
1. Asthereal (TO): If you attack with your Factory, I get to Claim it and Bogle wins. So you don't attack, keeping Mana Tithe for defense. If I try to Claim your Factory and protect my Claim with FoW, I have to pitch Bogle, leaving me without a wincon. So I also don't do anything. That's two draws. 2-2 (2)
2. PirateKing: You have extra mana to cast through tithe and win 0-6 (2)
3. Matsu: Neither of us cast spells and you race me losing 1 factory but the other wins. 0-6 (2)
4. CptHaddock: No one casts spells. Misthollow is faster than Mishra 0-6 (2)
5. Taconaut: Same as above 0-6 (2)
6. Mr. Safety: OTP you cast tongs before I can counter and I can never attack for fear of bride. OTD I hold out to counter your tongs. If you use spirit guide to pay for tithe I win, so you cast nothing. If I tap out to attack you land tongs then bridge. 1-3 (3)
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda Lose race to misthollow 0-6 (3)
8. Fallen_Empire: OTP you cast torper and win. OTD we stalemate because I counter your torper if you try to play it and I can’t tap out to attack. 1-3 (4)
9. tescrin: 2 Mishra’s are better than 1 0-6 (4)
10. PapriNgomo: Eventually you race and win. 0-6 (4)
11. ronco: Leyline of the Void too strong. Stalemate because I cant tap out to attack for fear of stalemate… 2-2 (6)
12. JackaBo: OTP you win but OTD it’s a draw bcause I can’t tap out. 1-3 (7)
13. H: No spells cast. Mishras blocks old growth and we draw both games. 2-2 (9)
14. mistercakes: OTP you win but OTD it’s a stalemate because I can’t tap out. 1-3 (10)
15. Dan Pyre: Stalemate both games because I can block your attack but can’t race. Manatithe irrelevant. 2-2 (12)
16. kombatkiwi: Stalemate, OTP you never cast bitterblossom for fear of counter and I can never attack. Leyline prevents smallpox from being cast. Smallpox thows game into draw. 2-2 (14)
17. Tylert: Stalemate because neither of us can tap out for fear of losing. 2-2 (16) He needs to fix his matchup
18. Ace/Homebrew: Myth bigger than Mishras 0-6 (16)
19. spartan117: Stalemate, you can never cast Eladamri's Vineyard, but I can never attack. 0-6 (18)
20. beardstorm: This is like an improved version of mine. OTP you cast zealous guarding before I can counter it. I can never block for fear of island. OTD it’s a stalemate because I never tap out to prevent zealous. If you try to seas curse something I’ll counter that and I can race zealous. 1-3 (19)
21. phonics: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
22. Sloshthedark: You win the race because you can block with blinkmoth 0-6 (19)
23. JosefK: blackmail hax 0-6 (19)
24. spirit of the wretch: You can pay for hangerback 0-6 (19)
25. apple713:
26. Darklingske: Stalemate, 1 pfire prevents attacks but 1 pfire can’t win the game either. Leyline strong. 2-2 (21)
27. FTW: cabal takes tithe and student is bigger than Mishra 0-6 (21)
28. Kap'n Cook: Greenbelt bigger than mishras 0-6 (21)
19 total, adjusted for errors
Lessons learned
Don’t submit a list at like 3am on no sleep
Mishras failed me. Zealous guardian is so much better in my deck.
Almost no one played removal… Everyone with the counterspells and discard.
Recommended bans
These are just thoughts. I’d like to see how the games shake out though before deciding.
Blackmail (oppressive because it pulls lands, even basics)
Cabal therapy (has to go if thoughtseize is gone)
Lion's Eye Diamond (I thought this was good too but no one played this but I was prepared with leyline. Maybe we see how this plays out in future metas?)
Eureka (4 mana spells are typically all in in this format but chancellor is the problem with it. Alone chancellor is generally garbage so Eureka has to go. If it gets countered it’s beat by anything though.)
Misthollow Griffin or Force of Will (Force seems fine alone because it’s a 241 but Misthollow seems like the big offender cause it’s the enabler. However, I see problems down the road with the Mercadian counter lands that add counters. They are slow but will typically allow force of will to be too strong because they dont lose a resource to play an additional land)
The Rack (maybe too powerful because discard is a strong enabler and no one can fill their hand. Maybe people just need to pack removal? Almost no one played removal of any kind)
Yes, you are right. i won't play eureka, you won't tap out so it's a stalemate. 2-2.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
These should both be draws. OTP the only safe time to cast Sea's Claim is after blocks, so you'll have an island in MP2 but he won't have a creature. No other threats remain.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Super fun contest! I realize now that The Rack is a better win condition than Scalding Tongs (in racing situations.)
Looks like I ended up with 68
1- OTP - Force has to hit Tongs due to racing math including 1 life for Force, then Bridge locks out attacks DRAW (1), OTD same situation DRAW (1) {2 total}
2- OTP – Racks win race easily, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
3-OTP – Bridge t1, tongs t2, WIN (3), OTD Bridge t1, Port active prevents Tongs, DRAW (1) {4 total}
4-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow wins race, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
5-OTP-Force Bridge, Misthollow beats, LOSS. OTD-same, LOSS (0)
6-BYE (lol)
7-OTP-another Force/Griffin matchup? Ugh, LOSS, OTD same, LOSS (0)
8-OTP- big 12/12, twice! Bridge says no, WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
9-OTP- Bridge gets ahead of Sphere but Tongs uncastable, DRAW (1), OTD sphere stops all, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
10-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same, WIN (3) {6 total}
11-OTP-Bridge forces draw, DRAW (1), OTD-smallpox forces draw (discard tongs), if he waits a turn I still land Bridge and he poxes, forcing DRAW (1) {2 total}
12-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD Thought-Knot takes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 total}
13-OTP-Force pitch Spike on Bridge, 3/3 beats LOSS (0), OTD- same LOSS (0)
14-OTP-Bridge wins easily, WIN (3), OTD – same WIN (3) {6 total}
15-OTP-Another favorable matchup, WIN (3), OTD – same WIN (3) {6 total}
16-OTP-Bog is too slow of a mana source, I get both Bridge and Tongs down before he untaps(3), OTD-bog allows Smallpox but bridge stops beats DRAW (1) {4 total}
17-OTP-doesn’t matter if it’s 100/100, Bridge WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
18-OTP-Bridge t1, Tongs can't target through Leyline DRAW (1), OTD-same, I can't target, he can't attack, DRAW(1) {2 total}
19-OTP-Bridge WIN (3), OTD same WIN (3) {6 total}
20-OTP-Spikes Tongs or Claim on City so it can't be played, DRAW (1), OTD Spikes Bridge, LOSS (0) {1 Total}
21-OTP-Rack drain, LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes Bridge/Guige, Rack & Factory make quick work LOSS (0)
22-OTP-Bridge and then Sphere forces DRAW (1), OTD-Sphere wins LOSS (0) {1 total}
23-OTP-Blackmail takes Tongs LOSS (0), OTD-Blackmail takes a crucial piece, LOSS (0)
24-OTP-cool combo but doesn't bounce Bridge WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
25-OTP-Bridge forces DRAW (1), OTD-Tithe Bridge, Tongs too slow, LOSS (0) {1 total}
26-OTP-PFire combo too slow with available mana, Tongs WIN (3), OTD-same WIN (3) {6 total}
27-OTP-Bridge gets down but Therapy nabs Tongs DRAW (1), OTD – if he goes first in the round I can still force a draw (unlikely he names Bridge in the blind) if he is second OTP he knows Bridge, names it and wins easily. OTD-LOSS {1 total}
28-OTP-Bridge gets Force-d, Rampager beats LOSS (0), OTD-same but faster LOSS (0)
Total Points = 68
Matthew Broderick FTW.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Pretty sure as I understand it both games are played with perfect information, hence Cabal Therapy being totally busted. So assume they will take the best line possible.
So you OTP need to jam Bridge or lose, then you'll lose Tongs and it's a draw
OTD you'll lose bridge and get raced
Decklists are known ahead of time? If not, why would he name Bridge in the blind g1 while he's on the Play? If he doesn't, I get to jam Bridge and it's a draw. On the play I jam t1 Bridge, he plays Therapy and names Scalding Tongs? I think that is unlikely given the unknown nature of this format. Game order is pretty important here for perfect information on Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
There is no unknown. Decklists are public and if there is a line that gets a better result, it's taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
As others are saying, Cabal Therapy is busted in this narrow format, so it'll be out with Thoughtseize and Blackmail.
1. Asthereal (TO): 2-0 (6pts) ; Bogle can't beat (or race) Factory #2
2. PirateKing: 0-2; (0pts) Racks win the race
3. Matsu: 2-0 (6pts -12 total) 2 Factories > 1 Factory
4. CptHaddock: 2-0; (6pts -18total) If you attack with Griffin you lose the race. If you block I pump Factory #1 to 3 and kill the griffin; leaving a second factory to kill you
5. Taconaut: 0-2; If you go "rush" confiscate then I'm stalled until you Griffin
6. Mr. Safety: 1-0-1; (4pts - 21 total) You're locked out OTD, I'm locked out OTD EDIT: added 4th point at end of post
7. Clx33: 0-2; locked by Propaganda
8. Fallen_Empire: 1-1; (3pts 24 total) OTD you can't play Orb. OTD I get munched
9. It's a me!
10. PapriNgomo: 0-0-2 (2pts 26 total) The biggest you can get is 4/4; which I can block with two factories. But I can't attack because I will lose the race.
11. ronco: 1-0-1 (4pts 30 total) You lose OTD because you can't cast anything. OTP you cast smallpox so you don't get locked out, then you block every turn because you'll lose the race
12. JackaBo: 1-0-1 (4pts 30 total) You lose OTD because you can't cast anything. OTP we draw because TKS is max 4/4, which a factory pumped by the other will block and kill, causing you to lose, so you instead hold back since I can't attack either.
13. H: 1-0-1 (4pts 32 total EDIT: Actually 4 but corrected at bottom!) [s]We end up standing off either way. If I go for a Sphere OTP you'll force it, so it's the same. You can't attack into me and I can't win the race attacking into you. (If I attack I have no mana for Factory #2 to block.)[/s] OTD we tie because you can't attack without losing. OTP I win the race by 1 turn and you can't block without losing
14. mistercakes: 1-0-1 (3pts 35 total) OTD you can't play anything, OTP EDIT: I sac vein to turn on both factories, killing the oblit (or we stalemate)
15. Dan Pyre: 1-0-1 (4pts 39 total) OTD you get locked out. OTP I can make a 4/4 to block causing a stalemate
16. kombatkiwi: 2-0 (6pts 45 total) You're always locked out by sphere
17. Tylert: 2-0 (6pts) You're always locked out by sphere
18. Ace/Homebrew: 0-2; (2pts 47 total EDIT: Actually 0 Corrected points at bottom!) [s]you pump Myth until he's 4/4 or bigger; but can't win the race I think (at 5/5 OTP you're at 6 HP) so we stalemate since you can block/win[/s] Myth is all instant speed so he eventually becomes a 20/20 and kills me.
19. spartan117: ) 0-0-2 (2pts 49 total) No matter the play sequence the treetop can't attack through a single factory (after you kill the first.) I can't win the race if I attack-> stalemate
20. beardstorm: 2-0 (6pts 55 total) Double factory beats 1/1 flash
21. phonics: 0-2 I believe Rack outpaces me
22. Sloshthedark: 0-2 My brudda! Infect outpaces Factories
23. JosefK: 1-1 OTD (3pts 58 total) you're locked out, OTP you win by 2 damage I think (we do the same amount every turn, but you have "haste" so to speak)
24. spirit of the wretch: 0-2; Hangerback eventually outsizes Factories and can threaten block+pump; meaning I can't attack. You can stall until you're a 20/20.
25. apple713: 2-0; (6pts 64 total) I always attack, pump to 3/3. If you block you lose that factory and I kill you with the other one. If you race you lose 2/2 vs 3/3.
26. Darklingske: 2-0 (6pts 70 total) You have to cast double PFire to kill Factory #1; which is too slow; especially if I Sphere (meaning you need 7 mana; then require 3 more for second factory)
27. FTW: 1-1 (3pts 73 total) You get locked OTD. OTP we stalemate until you're an 8/4; in which I'm screwed.
28. Kap'n Cook: 0-0-2 (2pts 75 total) I slow-roll Sphere either way; you force it or lose. When you do, we eventually stalemate because Greenbelt can't attack into a blocking 4/4 and I can't attack into it.
Too many "nobody can attack" issues. Had those draws been 1-1's, we'd each have an extra point and I'd be at 80ish. Worth noting for next time.
EDIT: I missed a Draw for Mr. Safety; so total is 76 not 75 (+1 net point)
EDIT: Corrected Myth's game from draws to losses? 74 is new total (-2 net points)
EDIT: Corrected H's game. I win a game here rather than two draws; bringing me to 76 (+2 net points)
EDIT: Corrected Mr Cake's game; I don't lose OTD, I tie. Thanks Wrath! (+1 net point)
77 (see edits)
All information must be perfect, otherwise we couldn't come to actual optimal lines.
Gotcha. I would argue that due to perfect information Therapy is definitely a ban-worthy card then. Format isn't really blind then, amiright?Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
I don't know the origin if the name, but yeah. Round 1 is wild west. Didn't plan for Misstep eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Hmmm, I forgot about the mana issue with that. Seems you'd be right, that would be a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Perhaps I need to reevaluate my other losses to Factories.
Wouldn't then Myth win the game, because he can bring it all the way to a 20/20 and you'd have to block. At which point, he wins, because he is still at 6 and a crack-back would only take him to 4 and blocking only delays the inevitable.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
can we also ban meddling mage? seems not so fun. :)
leyline of anticipation, 2 lotus petal, meddling mage. (feels similar to the cabal therapy lines)
how do i find my results?
Post your best estimates, other players confirm/correct. Waiting for poor Asthereal to grind through all of them is a torture I wouldn't want to inflict on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
FTW's Results for S01R01: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare
1. Asthereal (TO): Draw both ways. 2-2 (2)
2. PirateKing: I can Therapy Racks or Lupine, but the other outraces Student. 0-6 (2)
3. Matsu: I call Judge for violating the Legacy B/R. Alternately, you Mental Misstep both Therapy and Student. 0-6 (2)
4. CptHaddock: Same as #3. You Misstep Therapy and Force Student. 0-6 (2)
5. Taconaut: OTP I Therapy and you FoW it. Student is 1 turn too slow, putting you to 4 (Level 6) the turn before you would Confiscate. I flashback Therapy Confiscate and you cast Griffin FTW. OTD I'm 2 turns too slow. 0-6 (2)
6. Mr. Safety: OTP I Therapy Bridge and Student wins. OTD you play Bridge, I Therapy Tongs, and we draw. 4-1 (6)
7. Clx33: Therapy trades with Force, Propaganda locks student, and Griffin flies over FTW. 0-6 (6)
8. Fallen_Empire: I Therapy Dreadnoughts and Student wins. 6-0 (12)
9. tescrin: OTP I Therapy Sphere. Student plays defense until level 7, then crushes face. OTD you sac Vein to play Sphere and I can't play spells. 3-3 (15)
10. PapriNgomo: I Therapy Leopard or Gear and Student wins. 6-0 (21)
11. ronco: Leyline! OTP I Therapy Smallpox and Student wins. OTD if you play turn 1 Smallpox, I discard Cabal Therapy and cast Student FTW. If you hold back Smallpox, I Therapy it and win with Student. 6-0 (27)
12. JackaBo: OTP I Therapy Thought-Knot Seer and Student beats Gray Ogre. OTD you Thought-Knot me and I lose. 3-3 (30)
13. H: Therapy trades with your counters. You can FoW it, I can Therapy you naming Force Spike, or you can Force Spike Therapy OTD. Then Student beats Dryads. 6-0 (36)
14. mistercakes: OTP I Therapy Obliterator, then Student beats through Shield Sphere. OTD Obliterator wrecks me. 3-3 (39)
15. Dan Pyre: OTP I Therapy Crusader and win. OTD Crusader has pro-white FTW. 3-3 (42)
16. kombatkiwi: Bitterblossom can outrace Student. You suck up some hits to get to 3 tokens, then attack with 2 and chump forever. The 2 tokens narrowly outrace Bitterblossom life loss (OTP you'd win at 1 life). Therefore I must force a draw. I reveal Leyline, Therapy Bitterblossom, and Smallpox stops Student. 2-2 (44)
17. Tylert: For fun, I could Therapy Emrakul instead. It gets exiled due to Leyline. 6-0 (50)
18. Ace/Homebrew: I can force you to trade and draw because Student gets in too many early hits. See below. 2-2 (52)
19. spartan117: I Therapy Vineyard, shutting off Treetop Village and Field of Ruin. I cast Student and pay the upkeep forever while beating you for 1. 6-0 (58)
20. beardstorm: OTP if I Therapy either Force Spike or Sea's Claim the other one stops Student, so I take Guardian and force a draw. OTD you Force Spike my first play (Therapy/Student), then Sea's Claim to stop the other and win with Guardian. 1-4 (59)
21. phonics: I don't play Leyline. OTP I lead with Student. You play The Rack, then next turn Blackmail one of my 2 cards. Student holds off Factory, but The Rack bleeds me for 2 a turn. Student gets to level 7, but a turn too slow to win the race. OTD I have to hide Scrubland from Blackmail, you take Student and win. 0-6 (59)
22. Sloshthedark: I can Therapy Sphere OTP, but Inky outraces Student. 0-6 (59)
23. JosefK: I fail to play Leyline. OTP I play Student, keep leveling, and outrace The Rack. OTD you play Rack and Student is 1 turn too slow. 3-3 (62)
24. spirit of the wretch: OTP I Therapy Walker and draw. OTD 1/1 Walker kills me. 1-4 (63)
25. apple713: Mana Tithe and Therapy trade (either I Therapy it or you counter it). Student outraces Factory. 6-0 (69)
26. Darklingske: I Therapy Punishing Fire and Leyline exiles it. I play Student, pay the upkeep forever, and beat you for 1. 6-0 (75)
27. FTW: That's me.
28. Kap'n Cook: OTP I Therapy Judge's Familiar, then Student outraces Rampager. OTD you lead with Rampager (to get energy), I Therapy Judge's Familar, and Student still outraces you by 1 turn (hits Level 7). 6-0 (83)
Total: 83 points.
Grind vs Ace (you going first)
T1 - You play Myth. I play Student.
T2 - Level 1. I attack for 1. EOT you add 1 lore. (19)
T3 - L2. Attack for 3. EOT you go to 2 Lore. (16)
T4 - L3. Attack for 3. EOT 3rd Lore. (13)
T5 - L4. Attack for 3. You still can't profitably block (first strike), so EOT 4th Lore. (10)
T6 - If you attack for 4, I outrace you, so you hold. L5. I can't attack. EOT 5th lore.
T7 - If you attack for 5, I outrace you, so you hold. L6. I can't attack. EOT 6th lore.
T8 - L7. 4/4 double strike. I attack. You block as a 6/6 and trade, or you go to 2 and trade as a 7/7 next turn. (If you attacked, I win the race)
Lol I was going to run removal or another threat (The Rack, Doomed Traveler for Therapy shenanigans) in place of Leyline, but I was too worried about beating Unburial Rites -> Iona. Leyline turned out to be bad.
Edit: I forgot Leyline beats Darklingske's Punishing Fire.
Edit2: JosefK actually trades games with me.
I believe you're correct, rethinking it. I was thinking you had to choose between pumping vs blocking (basically during your own upkeep) but you can actually pump if I don't attack. I'll go reviseQuote:
Originally Posted by H
Could someone double, or triple check this for me?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
At first I figured this was a loss, but tescrin pointed out that even if he doesn't bother to cast Sphere (and he shouldn't, there isn't a point) he doesn't have the mana to both attack with a Factory and block with the other profitably. So, I think that means we'd both just be in a stalemate, because it will always end up better for him to not attack. I think.
Doesn't tescrin win OTP, playing a Factory, you play Dryads, he plays Crystal Vein, you can't attack because he can trade and have a factory left over, so you pass, he plays a second Factory and can attack for 3, if you trade yourself you lose, so you take 3 and crack back for 3 yourself, but then the volley ends with him at 3 and you at 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by H
With you OTP Dryad comes down first, you can hit for 3 before Factories are live, but past that you're stuck back into the same loop as before, only you'll win if tescrin attacks, so they don't, and it's a draw.
I think you're right. I was thinking he got to get an attack in so I couldn't win the race; but if I defend T2 then he can't attack without losing, and he can't block without losing. I'll go make amendment #3 to my post hahaQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
how do i see everyone's lists? is there a post somewhere? i didn't see it on opening post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
A little annoyed about Mental Misstep because I pushed for it's legality, but read ''Legacy Banned List' + cards'... Oh well, my all in on a 1 drop deck got worse. :rolleyes:
1. Asthereal: Force of Will, Sea's Claim, Slippery Bogle, Island - 0, 0
2. PirateKing: City of Traitors, The Rack, The Rack, Lupine Prototype - 0, 0
3. Matsu: Rishadan Port, Mishra's factory,Mental Misstep, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
4. CptHaddock: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Mental Misstep - 0, 0
5. Taconaut: Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Saprazzan Cove, Confiscate - 0, 0
6. Mr. Safety: City of Traitors, Elvish Spirit Guide, Ensnaring Bridge, Scalding Tongs - 1, 1 ( Tongs says 'target' and I have 'can't be targetedable')
7. Clx33: Saprazzan Cove, Force of Will, Misthollow Griffin, Propaganda - 0, 0
8. Fallen_Empire: City of Traitors, Torpor Orb, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Phyrexian Dreadnought - 0, 0
9. tescrin: Sphere of Resistance, Crystal Vein, Mishra's Factory, Mishra's Factory - 3, 3
10. PapriNgomo: Undiscovered Paradise, Undiscovered Paradise, Scythe Leopard, Adventuring Gear - 3, 3 (it takes 6 turns but MR finally gets big enough then we stare at each other until MR threatens lethal and you chump, then take lethal the following turn)
11. ronco: Swamp, Smallpox, Nether Spirit, Lotus Petal - 1, 1
12. JackaBo: City of traitors, Simian spirit guide, Simian spirit guide, Thoughtknot-seer - 0, 0 (assuming lowest life breaks draws, cause we'd draw when I'm OTP)
13. H: Tropical Island, Force of Will, Force Spike, Old-Growth Dryads - 0, 0
14. mistercakes: swamp, culling the weak, shield sphere, phyrexian obliterator - 0, 0
15. Dan Pyre: Swamp, Cabal Ritual, Lotus Petal, Phyrexian Crusader - 0, 0
16. kombatkiwi: Peat Bog, Bitterblossom, Nether Spirit, Smallpox - 0, 0
17. Tylert: Havenwood Battleground, city of traitors, Eureka, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn - 0, 0
18. Ace/Homebrew
19. spartan117: The Tabernacle At Pendrell Vale, Eladamri's Vineyard, Treetop Village, Field Of Ruin - 0, 0
20. beardstorm: Island, Zealous Guardian, Force Spike, Sea's Claim - 0, 0
21. phonics: Swamp, Mishra's Factory, Blackmail, The Rack - 0, 0
22. Sloshthedark: Blinkmoth Nexus, Inkmoth Nexus, City of Traitors, Sphere of Resistance - 0, 0
23. JosefK: Blackmail, Cabal Therapy, Swamp, The Rack - 0, 0
24. spirit of the wretch: Leyline of Singularity, Karakas, City of Traitors, Hangarback Walker - 0, 0
25. apple713: Plains, Mishra's Factory, Mana Tithe, Leyline of the Void - 3, 3
26. Darklingske: Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Dwarven Hold - 3, 3
27. FTW: Leyline of the Void, Scrubland, Cabal Therapy, Student of Warfare - 0, 0
28. Kap'n Cook: Force of Will, Judge's Familiar, Tropical Island, Greenbelt Rampager - 0, 0
I count 28
JackaBo, re-check your math. Pretty sure you win OTP and we draw OTD, but I'd lose because it'd end with me at 4 life and you at 20.
Mr. Safety, re-read our cards. :tongue:
Blackmail and Cabal Ritual for banning. Misstep for unbanning (along with other safe cards on the Legacy Banned list).
That makes sense, yeah, so it's should actually be a 1 for me (a draw and a loss) and 4 for tescrin (a win and a draw). Basically, on the play, he has the option to win the race, on the draw, not.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
look hereQuote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Meddling mage could be an issue in another deck but not the one you posted. That would lose to anything with 2 decent threats threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
I think we need to have more completed tournaments to decide if certain cards like this would be ban worthy. Meddling mage is on my watch list tho with a few others.
Not to mention losing to Force of Will. This is why I think Force is healthy to have, but maybe not Griffin.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
I believe you have the same issues with Mind Maggots* Tidehollow Sculler and other related cards though (in that deck) or if they play those T1. That said, all the decks that play that T1 lose to Chalice decks (which funny enough, was heavily meta-gamed and no one ran it hah!) which was part of why I didn't run a Maggots deck. Those decks are also hyper-weak to removal (such as the heavyweight deck.)Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
*wrong name. Different maggot card that Sculler's the opp
I think Leyline of Anticipation might be something that has to go in order to keep other cards off the banned list.
I made things annoying for myself by having to do bitterblossom math
It's getting late and I didn't get through all of it but I will at least confirm what other people have said
Looking at what other people have said vs me:
Asthereal: Agree
Tylert: Agree
Spirit of the Wretch: Agree
PirateKing: Agree
H: I think you actually win if you're on the play. In your calculation it seems like you evaluated it as if I played Bitterblossom on my turn 1, which is impossible (you do lose when I'm on the play though)
JackaBo: Agree
apple713: Agree
Mr. Safety: Agree (The Rack is 'in general' better than Tongs but probably not for you, because if you had Rack instead of Tongs in your deck your opponents worst case is always a draw by just choosing not to do anything)
tescrin: Agree
FTW: Agree
Ace/Homebrew: Agree
I've figured out all of the non-tricky ones and will post full results when I go through the rest tomorrow
Giving up 1 of your 4 cards to play a card before your opponent doesnt seem good enough. There isnt much you can do with 3 cards to win. Keep in mind you dont get to play land drops instantly so there isnt much you can do with 1-2 mana during opponents turn that will completely bone them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew