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Thoracle seems superior to any haste giving options. There is Akroma's Memorial but that is only reasonably cast off new Academy. The bigger problem and what likely makes this just a meme deck is that it miserably gets creamed by Bowmasters. Doesn't seem tenable to essentially automatically lose to such a prevalent card. Is there anyway for this deck to answer Bowmasters?Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Plenty of ways, the first being Bowmasters cost 2 and you go of before thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
The second, and what will probably be the kill instead of thoracle, is aether grid. Just shoot it in your top 27 cards.
Or, spell bomb if you go saga. Or dress down since none of your abilities matter.
IDK about Aether grid it seems worse than Thoracle or even Concordant Crossroads / Brainfreeze.Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Relying on winning turn 1 is dubious.
Spell Bomb and Dress Down are good options but do you wanna play Dress Down in a Saga deck?
Every hand that has an sealing should be able to cast it t1 and win. If it doesn't you built the deck wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Aethergrid kills players and kills creatures that would stop you, and let's you turn all your dead draws into damage. GG even on a whiff.
Maybe I'm missing something here but I don't see how you can cast Unsealing and a Frogmyte at the same time.
Best hand:
tomb/city
petal
unsealing
opal
any other 0 mana artifact
frogmyte
enforcer
Still doesn't work.
The new enforcer is also a frogmite.
And?
tomb/city
petal
unsealing
opal
any other 0 mana artifact
frogmyte
enforcer
Play tomb, opal, petal, bauble. Tap tomb and opal. Play unsealing.
Hand is now 4 mana affinity and 7 mana affinity with three artifacts in play and all lands tapped.
Pass turn.
I suppose if you were on the draw it technically does work with adding any other zero mana artifact but we are literally talking the perfect hand and only on the draw.
And 8 frogmite 4 grim monolith 4 mox 4 petals should do it
Yeah I don't see this working as an explosive T1 combo reliably enough. You'd need the perfect hand, or to probably be on LED + Echo.
But the fair mode in blue artifacts or Beans seems pretty insane. You only need 1 Thought Monitor or Nulldrifter to go way up on cards. I thought you could use those extra cards to counter stuff (FoW, FoN) but both Unsealing and Nulldrifter are "colorless" blue cards, -8 blue count.
Same with Murktide (different shell). Beans has already shown that just making cantripping Murktide is very annoying to beat. Murktide + draw 3, you're too far ahead in resources.
For full combo mode, does Metamorph copying Nulldrifter/Thought Monitor count as 7cmc? Probably not. Is there a way to bounce Myr Enforcer to keep replaying it?
Hence why I thought the most likely way for this card to go broken was pitch/delve cards in a control shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
FoW, Solitude, Fury, Grief, Murktide, Nulldrifter, etc. (not that you can play 5c pitch reliably but just as a list of potentials)
With so much card draw you can afford to pitch constantly and control the game through sheer card advantage and no longer being bound by mana.
No. It's a trigger on cast not etbQuote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Interesting idea, but how are you going to generate 7UUUU from lands to draw your deck? We don't have Academy for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
Equilibrium does interesting things with Unsealing since Frogmites can give you two activations with Unsealing which leads to either infinte mana if you alternate between Frogmites or drawing your entire deck if you alter between 4 cmc and 7 cmc creatures. Bonus points for being able to bounce Bowmasters. However, since it triggers on cast, you need two creatures to get started and the mana cost is kinda iffy, aside from being another card for the combo.
There could be a deck somewhere with these cards:
Yorion
Leyline of the Guildpact
Brainstorm
Ponder
Force of Will
Flare of Denial
Endurance
Subtlety
Up the Beanstalk
Kozilek's Unsealing
Veteran Explorer
Flare of Cultivation
Uro
Solitude
Leyline Binding
Bowmaster
Murktide
Nulldrifter
Forth Eorlingas!
Imagine what happens with the Flare cycle if you have Leyline of the Guildpact in play. Veteran Explorer is probably way too cute but it can lead to some busted play patterns.
The Palinchron deck would need hightide and wouldn't be an artifact deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Don't think you need Equilibrium in the artifact version since once you can actually get going it is likely very easy to start drawing you whole deck without having to resort to bouncing.
These lists have me wondering how win-more Kozilek's Unsealing will turn out to be. Spending 3 mana and a card is pretty significant for something that doesn't do anything by itself. And, most of the "cost reduced" creatures with cmc greater than 6 require a big commitment to work. Is something like Thirst For Knowledge going to be better in an artifact deck most of the time?
Palinchron is too clunky. It needs either:
A) 7 lands. But even control rarely reaches 7 lands.
B) High Tide + 6 Island to loop
C) 2 High Tide + 4 Island to loop
D) Archway of Innovation + many artifacts
B & C are worse than what High Tide can already do with Time Spiral. D doesn't work with High Tide.
Forcing the combo leads to win-more (or lose-more) tech that's fragile to disruption/mulligans.
But it seems strong in a fair shell. Is Beans worse than Accumulated Knowledge? The repeatability is where it really takes off. For the same reason you can't really compare to Thirst for Knowledge.
Yorion 8Beans
//Companion: 1
1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
//Enchantments: 12
4 Up the Beanstalk
4 Kozilek's Unsealing
4 Leyline Binding
//Spells: 24
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Negation
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Terminus
//Creatures: 17
4 Solitude
4 Nulldrifter
4 Murktide Regent
2 Triumph of Saint Katherine
3 Sailors' Bane
//Lands: 27
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 URB triome
1 WRB triome
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Forest
1 Karakas
11 draw 3s
8 more that make Spawn
30 cards that trigger Beans
Although you tap out for 2U (Unsealing, Nulldrifter), there are 8 Force + 4 Solitude + 10 1-mana removal so you can still interact.
Or just U Stompy
//Mana: 18
4 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Urza's Saga
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Archway of Innovation
2 Otawara, Soaring City
//Artifacts: 18
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mox Opal
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lavaspur Boots
1 Manifold Key
//Engines: 8
4 Simulacrum Synthesizer
4 Kozilek's Unsealing
//Creatures: 16
4 Sicarian Infiltrator
4 Thought Monitor
4 Nulldrifter
4 Sojourner's Companion
There should be enough payoffs that the deck is fine without Unsealing but draws insane # of cards with it.
Yeah it's really only worth it if you're triggering multiple times fairly reliably, based on the draw three. Otherwise you could just be running like, Painful Truths.Quote:
Originally Posted by rufus
This is what I had in mind except also with Dorks, Bowmasters, Guildpact, and Flares in place of stuff like Bane and Triumph. Consider Guildpact from hand can pitch all colors and in play any creature can be sacked to any of the Flare card. I think that has a lot of potential to tie everything together. That may be a different (modern) deck though since the Flares don't place nice with the Beans plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
So the problem with going for Bowmaster, Dorks, and Flares is you need a critical % of 7+ cmc creatures in the deck. Otherwise Unsealing is bad and you're better off cutting it to be regular Beans. Luckily there are enough playable 7cmcs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
If on Leyline of the Guildpact, play Scion of Draco.
The Leyline mechanic also clashes with 80 cards, so maybe drop Yorion too?
What do you think is the minimum amount? Best options are Angler, Murktide, Nulldrifter, and Bane. Consider that a control deck getting even one 3 draw trigger is likely enough to put them over the top.
Also consider it is still really powerful to get the 4-6 trigger especially when you are playing a lot of high CMC cards.
the problem is its a 3 mana do nothing investment to start with. Show and Tell wins the game on the spot and also costs 3 mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple Blood
The do nothing part was one of my initial concerns. That said, I don't find this comparable to SnT at all nor does the impact of resolving SnT somehow set the bar of what is a viable 3 drop in the meta as a whole.
I think Up the Beanstalk and Simulacrum Synthesizer show that "do nothing" enchantments with repeatable effects are powerful. Now, both of those cards do have an effect when they come into play. Kozilek's Unsealing actually does nothing when played, and it is more narrow than those cards, so I don't think it joins Tier 1 decks, but I think something can be built around it and be a Tier 2 list.
https://i.imgur.com/v5om0xe.jpg
This seems impactful
Looking at the most recent MtGTop8 MTGO League (https://mtgtop8.com/event?e=55647&f=LE), here are the cards that would get stopped by this:
Reanimator: 4 Grief, 4 Unmask, 4 Lotus Petal
Rhinos: 4 Fow, 4 FoN, 3 Crashing Footfalls, 2 Endurance (+1 Endurance in the sideboard)
Beanstalk: 4 FoW, 3 Daze (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 1 Force of Vigor, 1 Surgical Extraction)
Lands: 4 Mox Diamond (Sideboard: 3 Force of Vigor)
Control: 2 Endurance, 2 Solitude, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 2 Force of Vigor, 2 Surgical Extraction)
Control: 4 FoW (Sideboard: 3 Surgical Extraction)
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW
Ranimator: 4 Grief, 4 Daze, 4 FoW (Sideboard: 1 FoN, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction)
72/480 = 15% of maindeck cards
91/600 = 15.17% of total cards
This card looks to mainly affect Grief and FoW. There were no decks in this top 8 with baubles, which this would also hit. This cards is almost a combination of a Chalice on 0 + spells can't be countered, at least for the early game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoshim
It also hobbles Omniscience.
You play that against grief scam they're just going to reanimate grief and you'll still lose
Yeah man those 1-for-3s are too OPQuote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
huge win for fair non blue decks, i love it, also its not "opponent only" so the non fair decks wont just adopt it themselvesQuote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
Historically I feel like cards that neuter Force aren’t for the “fair decks”Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Almost lock with Knowledge Pool?:laugh:
I think a lot of decks will run it. The fact that the owner can turn it off for 1 mana and also get a draw out of it breaks the symmetry of the effect some.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
I see it very good in dark depth decks ; shuting down tempo decks and combo decks all the leds petal mox, beseech the mirror creative technique which were auto lose for dark depth ( i speak about gwdepth maybe in lands where you can play your mox diamond before the card and also maybe in bgdepth) might be playable in death and taxes but it still shuts down solitude.
The card can't be played in combo deck because it shuts down all the fast mana. I don't think the card will see ton of plays but it will definitely see plays because of the fact that you have to build a little around cause really lot of decks are impacted by the card, a little like playing chalice deck, you need to adapt your deck not to be shut down by your own card.
I see the card restricted in vintage like chalice of the void was restricted play your mox then this card, but it is an other format.
Do you think a normal grief scam is a 2 for 3?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Because this line, like regular grief scam, is a 3 for 3.
In which I spend 3 cards: A black one, A grief, and a Reanimate, and get 3 cards of value: Your useless bauble, a card from your hand, and a 3/2 menace.
bauble can still draw a card so it is not that uselessQuote:
Because this line, like regular grief scam, is a 3 for 3.
In which I spend 3 cards: A black one, A grief, and a Reanimate, and get 3 cards of value: Your useless bauble, a card from your hand, and a 3/2 menace.
It is until they do itQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
Useless in that it draws a card instead of you making me discard a card?Quote:
Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit
This is a really bad argument, do you seriously think that the initial instance of Grief doing something and not nothing is entirely incidental to this line of play being good?
Elves, Ruby Storm, and High Tide don’t care about it much but can use it protectivelyQuote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
You guys are missing other uses:
1) decks can cycle it at any time to dodge the symmetry
2) Urza's Saga target
3) does what Baubles do: digs, triggers Prowess, triggers descend, adds card type to graveyard, adds to Affinity, increases GY size, feeds Welder
Any artifact deck like 8cast, Painter, Coveted Jewel, and Black Saga Storm can play it as a 1-of Saga target. If they need to cast a 0, cycle. Until then it boosts artifact count and disrupts a lot!
Decks with Force could even play it if they're using Force defensively to protect a proactive line (Show and Tell, Dredge, Doomsday). It shuts off most enemy interaction you'd use Force on (Force, Daze, Grief, Surgical, Force of Vigor, Solitude). Helps protect when you don't have Force in hand. If you have both Bauble & Force and still need to Force something... pay 1.