I'd like having the Tomb in my SB, more than I think I'd like Minion, because it is also a mana source.
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I'd like having the Tomb in my SB, more than I think I'd like Minion, because it is also a mana source.
Another option is Exalted Angel, as bad as it sounds, it's about as fast as a Tomb of Urami, it can out race aggro with the Lifelink and the deck can turn into aggro-control after the other threats are exhausted or after the top deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by outsideangel
I'm certain Wastedlife is going to shit a brick over that proposal:eek:
Why would you need to outrace agro unless you kept an ass awful hand?
It's a full turn slower then Tomb. It's mana cost is obscene, it's a late-late game card, and if you're havn't beat agro by then, you've probably already lost. It's one advantage is not dying to Deed/EE/Punishment/Powder Keg.
What type of control can this deck play? You don't maindeck Chant, and as far as I know, you have no control options.
I am curious, why are you playing with living wish instead of the original? Minion of wastes seems awful since empty for 16 guys or tendrils for fatal seems like a far superior plan.
Why are you playing both wishes? It seems like your board is being to stretched, and your mana base seems like it won't be able to take it.
Access to Dark Confidants game one, increasing the number of Dark Confidants game two, recurring Xantid Swarm after Swords to Plowshares, casting Minion of the Wastes to circumvent Stifle and Engineered Explosives as well as other storm based hate, access to Tomb of Urami and SB bombs like Magus of the Jar.Quote:
Originally Posted by calosso
Edit: It also increases the deck's access to tutor based removal
There's been no changes to the SB plans against the top three decks, so having two Wish boards doesn't seem to be a serious issue, and I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, so the mana is smoother.
Living Wish is for winning small.
P.S. Exalted Angel was a joke.
A few posts back you (breathweapon) said you needed 8 mana for a ill-gotten gains chain. That's not always true, if you have 7 of which 5 is created by LED plus dark ritual, you can combo with IGG+infernal tutor too.
something like:
tap 2 land,play brainstorm, play lotus petal, play dark ritual, LED, infernal, sac LED, search for IGG and play IGG, return ritual, LED and tutor play them, search for Tendrils for 20.
I'm sure most of you already saw this but just to note.
I can see Tombstalker in the SB instead of Angel...
Tombstaker has a reduced cost and is evasive...
I'd suggest that any further discussion on the living wish build be made in another thread. You are talking about some significant changes to your mana base, and an entirely new sideboard.
On that note, I think burning wish is really what makes this deck insane, in conjunction with LED, and that it can fetch any relevant and powerful spell you need, I don't really see the logic in adding another tutor that doesn't even shore up to that power level. Add in that burning wish is accelerated by the best secondary color accelerants available.
There's nothing all that significant about the changes, that's the thing, I haven't had a single SB plan against a match up that has been affected via Living Wish taking up SB slots, and I feel that Living Wish offers the deck a lot of things Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish don't; casting Xantid Swarm again after a Swords to Plowshares, casting Dark Confidant and tutoring for Tomb of Urami are good enough in most cases against aggro-control, and Minion of the Wastes, Magus of the Jar and Harmonic Sliver are all still options at the deck's disposal. The card doesn't have to be more powerful than Burning Wish, in order to be good, and I'm not even certain it's less powerful than Burning Wish, it's just powerful on a different scale.Quote:
Originally Posted by noobslayer
I'm not advocating that Living Wish should or shouldn't be included in the deck, I'm advocating that the card is a serious option for people who are open minded enough to see its potential.
Simian Spirit is and isn't a significant change to the manabase, I use them in the Living Wish version because I just can't pilot this deck with out "counter target Daze" at this point.
Following the 7 to 9 rule, Simian Spirit Guide and 3 Empty the Warrens makes a lot of sense, take the build on the front page with the following changes, -1 Tendrils of Agony, +1 Empty the Warrens, -4 Right of Flame, +4 Simian Spirit Guide.
At this point SSG starts to make sense on the 7 to 9 principle
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
7 outs to counters.
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
7 alternate win conditions
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Burning Wish
8 cards that bait Force of Will
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Simian Spirit Guide
8 anti-counters, one for Force of Will and one for Daze.
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
8 Tutors
4 Plunge into Darkness
4 Brainstorm
8 Search
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
8 sources of BB+
4 Lotus Petal
4 Simian Spirit Guide
8 sources of 0 for R
4 Chrome Mox
11 Land
15 permanent mana sources
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Diminishing Returns
3 slots that don't abide by the 7 to 9 rule
There is a thought process behind the card, and I don't think it's all that radical to suggest Simian Spirit Guide as a change to the manabase when the card is an analog to Right of Flame.
TES has a superior access to 3 colors with SSG on the first two turns and superior access to 2 colors after a Diminishing Returns, and considering I win more games with Diminishing Returns and Empty the Warrens than Wastedlife, the greater distribution of mana is more important to me than the storm and chances of extra mana.
It's important to remember, all I care about is beating U/g/w Threshold.
If that's what you're trying to accomplish by running Living Wish, wouldn't Orim's Chant or even Defense Grid be better options?Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I feel that Living Wish dilutes the fundamental concept of the deck, which is to win fast. You can't afford to be reactive; you want to combo out and win. Simply put, nothing that you are getting with Living Wish is fast enough or relevant enough to further this deck's strategy. I think you'd have more success with a deck like Salvager if you're dead set on using Living Wish.
No, that's the reason I use Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame, I can counter Daze and cast Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns on turn two.Quote:
Originally Posted by b4r0n
Living Wish is just an experiment, people will either love it or hate it after using it.
Comboing out Living Wish is dead. Period. You could argue that you could get Tomb, but Burning wish would fetch Empty for more tokens that are not vulnerable to the single most common removal spell in the entire format. Nothing else you can find becomes relevant during the combo. Burning Wish is almost always relevant, since it finds Igg and Returns, your best combo enablers, and Tendrils and Warrens, your best wincons.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
And Simian Spirit Guide is almost strictly WORSE than Rite of Flame. It CANNOT provide more mana than Rite. It CANNOT be Igg'd. It CANNOT be returned via Returns and slightly ups the odds of losing more important cards to returns. It DOES NOT add to Threshold for Cabal Ritual. What does it get in return? It cannot be countered. Like Rite under Xantid Swarm. Oh goody.
We're done discussing Living Wish in this thread. Feel free to start a new thread about a Living Wish - based Storm Combo deck in N&D, but it should not continue in the LMF.
Find a spoiler for Storm Entity,Quote:
Originally Posted by Cait_Sith
Threshold is irrelevant, it's not something the deck attempts to achieve so much as it's something the deck gains as the game progresses past the third turn. Storm is irrelevant, because if the deck has the mana for the Ill Gotten Gains chain it has the storm as well, and it can just tutor for Warrens instead of Tendrils at the end of the chain if it is relevant. RFGing is irrelevant, the statistical odds aren't significant after a Diminishing Returns, difficult to calculate, can't be calculated with out assumptions and I've noticed no difference in actual game play.
No, I can't recur Right of Flame in an IGG chain, but a Right of Flame can't counter a Daze either.
Right of Flame produces more mana than SSG in multiples, while SSG produces more mana than Right of Flame after Diminishing Returns, 0 for R, when the deck can't float red mana, which is a common occurrence when the deck uses Diminishing Returns aggressively.
I've won more games using Simian Spirit Guide to counter Daze on Xantid Swarm than I care to recall, that alone doesn't make the card "strictly inferior."
BreathWeapon, I dare to ask, but are you testing against ANYTHING other than U/G/w Thresh? By your comments I'd assume not, which is a very scary thought.
First things first, in all cases EXCEPT daze, force spike or mana tithe, do we agree that Rite of Flame is an overall better mana producer?
Let's consider some facts and some possibilities
1) Of the metagame decks, Thresh is the ONLY one that runs any of the "pay :1: " counters.
2) You may not even run into Thresh in your entire day of playing.
3) Even if you do run into Thresh, for SSG to be most useful, you have to use it reactively which is something you've even stated yourself that you do not want to be. (read: SSG is much more reactive than Rite)
4) Also - even if you do run into Thresh, there will be plenty of times that either they'll have Daze and you won't have SSG, or you'll have SSG and they won't have Daze. Alot of Thresh builds only run 3x Daze so either of these scenarios are VERY likely.
Basically, the times when SSG would be more useful than Rite of Flame are so few and far between that I'm not willing to sacrifice the additional mana that Rite of Flame can provide. As I've said before, I've even gone to 4 Cabal Rituals because there have been plenty of times when I've said "If I just had that one extra mana".
I test against U/g/w, U/g/r, U/g/b, EBA, Faerie Stompy, AfFOWnity, Landstill and Aluren.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sycik
No, I don't agree that Rite of Flame is superior to Simian Spirit Guide in all cases other than Daze and Disrupt, High Tide has a SB (1) counter to.
1) Threshold is the most predominant aggro-control deck and High Tide is the most predominant combo-control deck, pre-boarding for Threshold and High Tide with Xantid Swarm is done on a regular basis, Simian Spirit Guide is just taking it one step further.
2) Then I won the tournament.
3) I meant not answering the opponent's hate with tutors and instead tutoring for an alternate threat to disregard the hate, Simian Spirit Guide has nothing to do with this.
4) There will be a lot of times when I have Xantid Swarm and the opponent doesn't have Force of Will, or when the opponent has Force of Will and I don't have Xantid Swarm; am I suppose to judge the merit of a card based on not drawing it or the opponent not drawing the card it was included for?
The reason people think that Right of Flame is a better mana producer than Simian Spirit Guide in this deck is because they're comparing them side by side on paper instead of comparing them after testing both of them in the deck.
If there is no Swarm in hand, I go for turn one Warrens, which requires more 0 for R mana sources in order to be a consistent play and resistant to Force of Will. If there is a Swarm in hand, and that Swarm is countered or killed, then instead of Wish for Warrens or Plunge for Xantid or Warrens, I go for Infernal for Returns or Wish for Returns with at most a black and maybe a blue mana floating; this is where Right of Flame is dead, Simian Spirit Guide is live and it can add R to the mana pool or protect a ritual from Daze, the odds of which are 80% plus if the opponent didn't draw it in his first 7 cards and drew a new 7 cards off of Returns.
I do not expect to win with Ill Gotten Gains against aggro-control ever, and I do not expect to win with Tendrils of Agony against aggro-control ever. I prepare for the worst case scenarios such as getting the Xantid Swarm Dazed, getting the Xantid Swarm Force of Willed, getting the Xantid Swarm killed and then ask three questions, how do I win around Stifle, how do I win before the opponent casts Meddling Mage or Null Rod and is Empty the Warrens resistant to Force of Will? The answer to the fist and second questions is to Diminishing Returns now, gaining red mana off of Simian Spirit Guide, and the answer to the third question is to cast Dark Ritual, cast a Chrome Mox/Lotus Petal, have the opponent Force of Will it, and then use Simian Spirit Guide to generate the red mana and cast Empty the Warrens or have the opponent Force of Will the Dark Ritual, and then I cast Empty the Warrens the next turn.
So, Simian Spirit Guide is a better mana source in the first two turns of the game while Right of Flame is a better mana source after that or if it manages to draw multiples and the opponent has no defense against it. I am way, way more aggressive with this deck than Wastedlife is, because I have to deal with people who use 4 Daze MD Stifle and SB Null Rod, and I am not waiting around for the last two of those three to GG me.
Easier access to R mana is also a big deal against Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void at one, Right of Flame is worthless there, and Simian Spirit Guide is adding a mana under Trinisphere for Shattering Spree or adding another red mana to destroy Chalice of the Void.
Simian Spirit Guide can't be Duressed either, which has saved my ass by allowing me to Brainstorm the Empty the Warrens back on top of the deck, and in desperate situations he's a 2/2 the cleans up after an Empty the Warrens or Tendrils of Agony falls short, which has also saved my ass after a Swords to Plowshares on a Werebear.
Believe me, I have spent a lot of time with the card, I'm not judging it based on speculation.
I like 1-2 simian, but it really hurts your storm count if you have multiples, which in turn makes it that much harder to win turn 1-2, so I don't think you're right when you say "x is better than x turns x-x." In nearly every case, it's going to be situation-dependent. With that in mind, do you use the one that has the higher power level or the lower? You can't argue that simian has a higher power level, as it doesn't add storm, and it has no possibility for adding more than one mana.
As a metagame choice, Simian isn't bad. In the end your ETWs will be weaker, and you'll have a rougher time getting lethal storm for tendrils.
Here's a quick puzzle, if anyone cares to solve it. It's not that hard, but takes a little thought.
You're on the draw G1, and your opponents first turn is Wasteland-Aether Vial.
Diminishing Returns
Chrome Mox
Dark Ritual
Dark Ritual
Chrome Mox
Infernal Tutor
Empty the Warrens
Tendrils of Agony
What's the play?
Edit: you CAN go off this turn!
I shouldn't play Dark Ritual combo. Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Random newbie
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
Mox imprinting Tendrils
Tap, Play Ritual
Play Infernal Tutor, Fetching Warrens
play Mox Imprinting Warrens
Cast Dark Ritual
Tap Mox for Red, Cast Empty the Warrens for 12 Tokens.
Yes, Right of Flame vs Simian Spirit Guide is situations dependent, but Simian Spirit Guide shines in the first two turns of the game, while Right of Flame shines as the game progresses and multiples are drawn.
If more people were around for post-restriction Burning Long and Steve's Draw7 combo deck, I don't think people would doubt how good a Spirit Guide is in a combo deck that uses a Draw7. Just when the deck had Fastbond and Crop Rotation Elvish Spirit Guide was a great card, with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens Simian Spirit Guide is an amazing card.
One of the lessons I learned a long time ago is that storm just comes, I haven't cast an Empty the Warrens for less than three ever, and that's good enough for me against aggro-control and control.
This is not entirely accurate. In the first few turns, you haven't seen many cards, and are unlikely to be able to generate a very high storm count. If you need to go off with a Tendrils quickly, as you would in the combo mirror, SSG not adding to the storm count or being replayable via Ill-Gotten Gains will often make it weaker than Rite of Flame. I regularly kill with the perfect 10 Tendrils, as it's difficult to storm for more on an opening grip, and most Tendrils kills revolve around the Gains loop, where SSG is pretty bad. In short, there are matchups where you need to Tendrils early, and SSG seems worse than Rite in those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
Well, it's nice that people like to be impulsive with EtW, but the fact that Rite of Flames add to storm actually is very crucial against a control deck. Against aggro-control, you want Rite of Flames to add to your storm when you're setting up EtW or Double Tendrils. SSG is good because it gets around Lock Components though. I might rather run SSG as a metagame choice.
Hi, it's my first post here.:smile:
I've been following the thread for a couple of weeks, and I'm currently playing TES.
I think Rite of Flame > SSG, and if anyone wants to include the simians in Rite slots, is a metagame call. Reasons are obvious and have been explained before.
However, it seems very important to me the power of Simian when Diminishing and first turn ETW. So, has anyone tested a split 2/2 of Cabal Ritual and SSG? The idea is to make easier to kill with Returns, without losing the storm (when you draw SSG in multiples) and reduce the mulligans decreasing the number of caba ritual.
And what about if we cut the Cabal Rituals and add the SSG (-4/+4)?
The only problems I see in the -4 / +4 is that maybe it would be harder to add BB for Tendrils, but you still have Chrome/Petal/Dark Ritual, and it also would be harder the IGG chain without LED.
I don't know if that changes will work, I'll test this week and we will see.
Can anyone kindly tell me how to sideboard when against Deadguy Ale? Help would be much appreciated. Thanks!
-4 XantidQuote:
Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG
+4 Dark Confidant
Play aggressively, and test the matchup a bit. Discard is, in my opinion, the easiest form of hate to play through. I'd much rather my opponnent went turn one dark ritual, duress-hymn than went turn one chalice for one-go.
Don't forget about brainstorm, it's the simplest anti-discard combo move in the book, but it's very important.
Also, they'll be boarding in plagues, but it can still be 100% correct to go for EtW sometimes. After you test a lot you should get the hang of it.
Daze, Trinisphere and Chalice of the Void are all selling points of the card, one of the things that attracted to me to it was that it was an answer for Stax via Shattering Spree that Vintage Long was using when it replaced its ESGs with SSGs and added Burning Wish so it could use Demonic Consultation. Regardless, one of the more popular decks here is a W/g Stax deck that uses all of the traditional Stax components with Magus of the Tabernacle, Living Wish for the original Tabernacle, Cataclysm and Sylvan Library, so you really have to be able to dig your way out from underneath a Trinisphere or Chalice of the Void if you want to win a match after you've lost the coin flip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.
In an unrelated matter, I've been testing Doomsday in the SB and it has been an interesting inclusion. As long as the deck has a Burning Wish and a Brainstorm in its hand, it can Burning Wish for Doomsday, stack Infernal Tutor, LED, LED, IGG and Tendrils and then cast the Brainstorm for Infernal Tutor, LED, LED and win the game. It's 1R + BBB + U + 1B with out LED to do it in a single turn, and it can be spread out over multiples turns such as, turn one land, Chrome Mox and Burning Wish for Doomsday, turn two land, Dark Ritual casting Doomsday, Brainstorm and then RFG Simian Spirit Guide casting Infernal Tutor turn two for the BBB + U + 1B.
I'm not certain it's needed, but being able to win on turn two with Tendrils and with out LED is enticing, and while some people would just cast the Brainstorm there, against non-Goblins aggro GG is GG if the path to win is in the hand, and against aggro-control the deck could have cast Xantid Swarm and kept Brainstorm back.
I like that idea. It seems like there would be very few times you would actually go for it, but those few times might make the difference. Couldn't hurt to test it.
It's more or less a non-ETW, non-Diminishing Returns option for when the deck doesn't have LED, I'm not certain the number of occurrences of that warrant the SB slot, but cutting a Shattering Spree isn't the end of the world, and no one is going to see it coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
I dont exactly understand how the game ends after the doomsday could you describe exactly what happens and if all is in the same turn etc.
thnx
Here's an example on the draw,Quote:
Originally Posted by DeDennis
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Burning Wish
1 Brainstorm
1 Dark Ritual
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal
1 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
Turn one: City of Brass, Xantid Swarm and go
Turn two: Draw Burning Wish, Gemstone Mine, Burning Wish for Doomsday
Turn three: Draw Empty the Warrens, cast Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, cast Lotus Petal, RFG Simian Spirit Guide, cast Brainstorm drawing Infernal Tutor, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond and replace them with Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Lion's Eye Diamond, cast Infernal Tutor and proceed with the Ill Gotten Gains Chain for 12 storm.
There are also a lot of other complications, like being able to replace the Infernal Tutor with Brainstorm and Lion's Eye Diamonds with Dark Rituals and move the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card of the stack and go straight for the Tendrils of Agony if you have enough storm, against Tormod's Crypt, and you can replace the Tendrils of Agony with an Empty the Warrens, against Meddling Mage etc.
I've done some other real complicated things in the mid game with chaining into three Brainstorms via Brainstorm in hand, Brainstorm on top of the stack, Brainstorm on the fourth card of the stack and Tendrils of Agony on the bottom of the stack to win with a single Tendrils of Agony with out using an Ill Gotten Gains or a Lion's Eye Diamond when the opponent had a Tormod's Crypt and a Meddling Mage on Lion's Eye Diamond.
Disregarding LED, which makes the comparison non-sensible, I think Doomsday is a stronger engine than Ill Gotten Gains, if you really know what you are doing with Doomsday, you can just disregard all of the opponent's hate and win right there.
It gets even more complicated with Street Wraith in the deck, because then the deck can set up the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony stack with out another Brainstorm in hand, but I wouldn't put Street Wraith in the deck just for Doomsday.
It's a complicated card with a lot of potential, with enough mana on the board, the triple Brainstorm stack can just disregard the opponent Force of Will in the discard pile and win, that's huge right there.
Leaving you with 1-2 cards left before you die. I don't like that plan, as the opponent can get out of it with some blockers+StP for life gain. In the case of MM on tendrils I'd rather wish up an answer for mage. After all, if they decide to name tendrils>a combo peice like LED then they probably don't fear EtW, and are more likely to have EE or clasm waiting for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
It seems very tricky and very fragile without tendrils.
Agreed. Passing the turn with 1 card left in your deck seems a little weak. You lose to random stuff like Standstill + spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
But I think the Doomsday -> Tendrils idea is strong, mostly because it can turn a hand that otherwise wouldn't be able to Tendrils into a hand that can. Just think of Doomsday as a super tutor and you're not far off.
How good would some copies (likely 1, maybe 2) of the card be MD, either replacing the weaker tutors (Plunge) or as a supplement to the existing tutor package?
So um....
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mf142
This card looks to be ridiculous in a fast combo deck like TES. What do you guys think?
It's not that simple, there are a minimum of 2 cards left in the pile, the two cards from Brainstorm, and there can be as much as 4 cards left, so if the pile sets up a storm count for Empty the Warrens at under 10 it has at least 4 turns to win and if it sets up an Empty the Warrens for more than that it has at least 2 to 3 turns to win, if you can't win with Empty the Warrens before you draw 4 to 2 cards with an inversely proportional storm count, you weren't going to win any way.Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
People name LED all the time, it doesn't mean that they're holding a Pyroclasm, it just means that they don't want you to do anything ridiculous with your tutors.
The card isn't fragile, it's just complicated, and as long as the Brainstorm and the mana is there it's almost a guaranteed win.
Here are some examples,
BBBB and UUU = appr. win with out IGG or LED
Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack the deck with Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm and Tendrils of Agony, cast Brainstorm and draw Brainstorm, Dark Ritual and Dark Ritual putting two irrelevant cards back, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm and draw two irrelevant cards and Tendrils of Agony, cast Tendrils of Agony for 9 storm.
You can reduce the costs to BBBB and UU for 8 storm via moving the Tendrils of Agony to the fourth card in the stack.
BBB(1B) + R(1R) + U(U,U)= modular storm engine for Empty the Warrens
Dark Ritual, cast Doomsday, stack Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens, Brainstorm drawing Right of Flame, Right of Flame, Empty the Warrens and put two irrelevant cards back, four cards remain, cast Right of Flame for RR, cast Right of Flame for RRR, Empty the Warrens for 6.
You can increase the storm count to 7 via adding a Brainstorm on top of the stack, and you can increase the storm count to 8 via replacing the third card on the stack with Brainstorm, and you can increase the storm count to 9 via replacing the fourth card on the stack with Infernal Tutor or
So, U increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this twice, 1B increases the storm count by one and reduces the total number of turns Empty the Warrens can attack by, and you can do this thrice, and 1R increase the storm count by one and doesn't reduce the total number of turns the Empty the Warrens can attack, and you can do this once.
You can also replace the first instance of Red mana with an additional Black mana via altering the stack's use of Right of Flame, Right of Flame to Dark Ritual and Lotus Petal or Simian Spirit Guide to circumvent Null Rod.
BBB + U = MD Tendrils win using LED to cast multiple cantrips and either another LED or other accelerants for Tendrils of Agony.
Dark Ritual, Doomsday for Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, irrelevant, Tendrils of Agony, and now Brainstorm, floating UUU from LED and 2BB for Tendrils of Agony, drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and Brainstorm, put two Brainstorms back, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, Brainstorm and irrelevant and put Brainstorm and irrelevant black, Brainstorm drawing Brainstorm, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony putting irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony back, Brainstorm drawing 3 cards and lose*
*Ok, that last part was to get the point across that replacing something in the deck (a Cabal Ritual) with a Sleight of Hand lets the deck complete this stack with out a problem.
Replacing the final Brainstorm with Sleight of Hand, Sleight of Hand revealing irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony, keep Tendrils of agony and put irrelevant on the bottom of your library (last card in the deck) and cast Tendrils of Agony.
Ok, assuming the deck can get 3 blue cantrips off of LED, that means that Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Lion's Eye Diamond and Brainstorm is 4 storm and the stack itself, Brainstorm, Brainstorm, Sleight of Hand, irrelevant and Tendrils of Agony is 4 storm, so if you can find the mana to cast the Tendrils of Agony you should be able to win the game with it.
You can also pass the turn after casting Doomsday if you don't have a Brainstorm, which trades storm for mana, and you can set up similar multi Brainstorm stacks if you use Plunge into Darkness for one instead of Brainstorm to draw the first Brainstorm on the stack, it replaces the first instance of U with an instance of 1B, and that last stack can replace the Sleight of Hand with a Plunge into Darkness if it exchanges a U for 1B at the end of the stack.
There are also non-LED based Ill Gotten Gains piles to avoid Null Rod, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony for example lets the deck Brainstorm drawing Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Ill Gotten Gains recurring Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Brainstorm, and then cast Dark Ritual, cast Dark Ritual, cast Brainstorm drawing garbage, garbage and Tendrils of Agony for the win at a cost of BBBB + UU and you can change the pile to Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Brainstorm, Tendrils of Agony and then use Plunge into Darkness for BBBBB1 + U which you can easily do with two rituals, one blue mana and one or more colorless sources depending on whether or not those rituals were Cabal Rituals.
Ok, I'm about positive that Doomsday is a great engine to have access to in combo if you understand how to use the card and you have the mana,
The cheapest one turn win I've found so far is 1R + BBBB + UU for Burning Wish for that last pile with Brainstorm in hand, can't use LED, and the deck has good odds of getting that pile if it uses Simian Spirit Guide instead of Right of Flame to enable UU off of a Lotus Petal or a second land drop, which is real important.
I also think that if the deck can cast Burning Wish, cast Doomsday, cast Brainstorm with 2 Lion's Eye Diamond it can use a modified version of that cantrip stack to win with instead of going for the Infernal Tutor for a second copy of LED and then Burning Wish for Ill Gotten Gains plan, which avoids using Ill Gotten Gain with a Force of Will in the discard pile.
Ok, I'm going to go sleep for awhile, that took about all of the critical thinking I have.
Separate post because the last one was complicated enough,Quote:
Originally Posted by outsideangel
DDAY is not just a tutor, it is an engine, similar to Gifts Ungiven, it just requires having a Brainstorm in hand, a Plunge into Darkness to tutor for the Brainstorm on top of the deck or passing the turn to go off.
I haven't even figured out the ramifications on the stacks after I manage to Burning Wish for Doomsday, cast Doomsday on turn one or turn two and then pass the turn, which I can manage to do with one land, Dark Ritual, Simian Spirit Guide and one other source of mana, I figured after this the deck should go for the Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ill Gotten Gains, Tendrils of Agony stack or the modular Empty the Warrens stacks, but you have to figured out how to use Empty the Warrens in that Ill Gotten Gains stack in order to have a good enough storm count for a 2 turn win or luck sack some extra storm for the Tendrils kill from some where.
I have no idea what happens when this deck puts Doomsday in the deck, because Plunge into Darkness removes a bunch of shit and it gets really fucking complicated to assemble your stacks, and Doomsday is situational unless you want to pass the turn, you have Brainstorm or you have Plunge into Darkness in hand to go off on that turn with it or you want to start adding Street Wraith.
I'm sure something could be done with it, but passing the turn or requiring one of 12 other cards in hand and the absolute mind fuck of the card is enough to make me say I'd just stick to adding it to the SB.
I don't think Plunge into Darkness is weak, in fact I think it's stronger than Infernal Tutor.
Ok, seriously, I need rest. I'll answer your questions after my sanity returns, but if you look at the piles for yourself, you'll see how insane this card is under the right conditions; I'm literally not even giving a shit about Meddling Mage or Null Rod against Threshold, and that is just absurd.
it seems to me that to use doomsday optimaly you want to go of the turn you doomsday, but in most cases you showed you needed a source of black, red and multiple blue.That is almost impossible to do early in the game without LED or multiple lotus petals. I like doomsday cause it's really cool but I am not convinced it's not a win more card yet. I hope it turns out to be good.
5c Grim Long? They dropped ESG, and probably even SSG as well a long time ago in favor of cards that actually answer Chalice of the Void, Trinisphere, and Meddling Mage. It stopped running ESG because it already found a way to answer it right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
As for Stax, it seems like a hard match-up. But however, Combo isnt suppose to be naturally good against Stax, ad Stax shouldnt really be good in general because of the excess mulligans. I stopped playing Faerie Stompy and Stax because of the excess mulligans. The best way to answer Stax is using an early EtW, Shattering Spree, or bouncing it or something...
I play that way too, but I dont commit entirely to the EtW. I just go EtW for 4-8, and start smashing face for the next 3 turns, and Tendrils half way with the storm of 5 or so.Quote:
There's a difference between being impulsive with ETW and being tactical with it, I find against a lot of decks that Land, Chrome Mox, Dark Ritual into ETW can be used to not win the game, but ware the opponent down, forcing him to cast his threats, dig for answers and lose track of Tendrils. Just going for Diminishing Returns into a large ETW is also better than dealing with a Tormod's Crypt etc.
Doomsday.... Interesting.
Now I could see this as a 1-of in the sideboard as an additional engine. Like outsideangel said - think of it as a super tutor. If you cast it, you win. You have to be careful against control decks, but our resident bees could take care of them.
Doomsday seems to pretty much turn a hand that can't go off into a win. I'd think that you'd want to go off the turn you cast it and not give your opponent a chance to do something completely random and win. (i.e. standstill + another spell, glimpse the unthinkable, target player draw spells)
I'll test this idea myself as a 1-of in the board.
Not that I'm aware of, most of the 5c Grim Tutor decks still use a Spirit Guide instead of another mana source, Cabal Ritual, not another answer to Stax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti~American4621
One of the reasons I use SSG is because the metagame here is combo, aggro-control and prison, and Stax does not lose to Warrens, because it has 4 Magus of the Tabernacle, Cataclysm and our versions run 4 Living Wish for Wasteland 5-7 and Tabernacle 5-8 along with Glowrider, True Believer and Voidstone Gargoyle with Sylvan Library to make the deck consistent, it's some scary shit to see across the table for any one.
It is a metagame choice, but the card in and of itself is good with Draw 7's, and I've won games off of the 2/2 dealing two points of damage a turn while I searched for a Tendril in top deck mode against control.
@DDAY
DDAY isn't suppose to be the "Go to Threat" in this deck, it's just there in case the deck doesn't draw LED and to allow it to completely out play the opponent in the middle of the game; I've literally been beating Threshold over the head with it for about a day, you just have to be good with your stacking and you can ignore most of their hate.
It lets this deck do things it damn well shouldn't be able to do.
It sounds to me like TES is a terrible deck for your field. Just sayin'. I think that a lot of your decision making could be distorted due to playing in a metagame that's clearly very unfavortable for the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon