[Deck] Belcher

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Damnit, I had Crash confused with another card, I haven't been this pissed off since I found out Hunting Pack was an instant.

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Did you mean Cave-In - the pitch Pryoclasm?

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No one is ever going to pre-emptively cast an Engineered Plague against you,

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I don't think that this will be true all the time. I've seen a few first turn Dark Ritual --> Plague, go.

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As an aside, I think Oxidize is better than Shattering Spree in the SB, given the choice, RFGing an Elvish Spirit Guide is better than RFGing a Simian Spirit Guide more often than not.

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But unfortunately, you lose the ability to BWish for artifact removal then. However, I could reasonably see playing a mix of Spree and Oxidize in the SB.

A 10+ storm ETW is almost NEVER going to happen, maybe if you were on the draw, used those 8 cards, then went wish ---> IT ---> ETW. I think you worry too much that the opponent will always have an answer, the burden is on THEM to answer ur possible goblin tokens, not on you to use Belcher or kill in one attack phase. If they mulled to oblivion to find that EE/Clasm, you probably have a good chance at making a 2nd combo because they actually have to beat you at some point and wont be able to if they mull for 1 card. This deck can't reach 8 mana consistently this is true, thats why IT is a SB card, you wish for it when you can use it and when you can use it it helps you get Belcher when ETW won't work or at least makes 2 more goblins if you cast IT for ETW. Diminishing returns is even more narrow than IT because you NEED an LED to be able to cast it, barring some double petal/Cantor happenings.

People will cast Plague ASAP, just usually you will have gone off before they have the opportunity to cast it. if they have Rit ---> Plague they will do so, or if you mull to 5 and dont combo before their turn 3 theyd cast it then also, just because this deck is fast enough that they dont get the chance to do it that often doesnt mean they wouldnt/dont want to. I still don't see how Leyline of the Meek won't hurt your draws, do you not play 2 of these 3 in the last 8 slots: Street Wraith, Wild Cantor, Serum Powder. All of these cards help your goldfish as opposed to being dead sometimes, even Cantor can help you go off turn 2 or channel green mana into red and let you go off.

Oxidize is 100% worse than Shattering Spree, you cant Burning Wish for it, and it does nothing against Chalice/3sphere which have been the biggest problem artifacts for me. Sbing in 3 Shattering Spree and leaving one SB lets me do stuff like remove SSG, SSG, ESG, Seething Song, Shattering Spree kill your board against Stax, even in the face of 3sphere and chalice at 1 that works, while Oxidize sits around and cant be wished for.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

A 10+ storm ETW is almost NEVER going to happen, maybe if you were on the draw, used those 8 cards, then went wish ---> IT ---> ETW. I think you worry too much that the opponent will always have an answer, the burden is on THEM to answer ur possible goblin tokens, not on you to use Belcher or kill in one attack phase. If they mulled to oblivion to find that EE/Clasm, you probably have a good chance at making a 2nd combo because they actually have to beat you at some point and wont be able to if they mull for 1 card. This deck can't reach 8 mana consistently this is true, thats why IT is a SB card, you wish for it when you can use it and when you can use it it helps you get Belcher when ETW won't work or at least makes 2 more goblins if you cast IT for ETW. Diminishing returns is even more narrow than IT because you NEED an LED to be able to cast it, barring some double petal/Cantor happenings.

People will cast Plague ASAP, just usually you will have gone off before they have the opportunity to cast it. if they have Rit ---> Plague they will do so, or if you mull to 5 and dont combo before their turn 3 theyd cast it then also, just because this deck is fast enough that they dont get the chance to do it that often doesnt mean they wouldnt/dont want to. I still don't see how Leyline of the Meek won't hurt your draws, do you not play 2 of these 3 in the last 8 slots: Street Wraith, Wild Cantor, Serum Powder. All of these cards help your goldfish as opposed to being dead sometimes, even Cantor can help you go off turn 2 or channel green mana into red and let you go off.

Oxidize is 100% worse than Shattering Spree, you cant Burning Wish for it, and it does nothing against Chalice/3sphere which have been the biggest problem artifacts for me. Sbing in 3 Shattering Spree and leaving one SB lets me do stuff like remove SSG, SSG, ESG, Seething Song, Shattering Spree kill your board against Stax, even in the face of 3sphere and chalice at 1 that works, while Oxidize sits around and cant be wished for.

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1) 10 plus storm Empty the Warrens happen all the time after a Diminishing Returns, and saying Diminishing Returns is more narrow than Infernal Tutor because it requires Lion's Eye Diamond is a dubious argument. Were people actually casting Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor on the play and passing the turn, while praying they would have the black mana and Hellbent to cast it in CRETBelcher game 2/3 and not expect to lose?

The burden is on you to kill them before they can cast their answer to Empty the Warrens on game 2/3 on the draw, because they will likely MD 4 answers to Empty the Warrens and SB 4 more answers (my meta is extremely anti-Empty the Warrens). You either go for Goblin Charbelcher, go for Diminishing Returns into a storm 10+ Empty the Warrens or a Goblin Charblecher or you use Leyline of the Meek to make you immune to Rain of Shards, Sandstorm, Scorching Winds or Engineered Plague and race Pyroclasm, Engineered Explosives or Powder Keg on the play and Pernicious Deed, Engineered Plague, Tividar's Crusade or Hailstorm on the draw.

2) Any one who pre-emptively plays Engineered Plague, Engineered Explosives, Powder Keg, Ghostly Prison, Propaganda or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale is a retard, because their telling their opponent to don't commit his resources to Empty the Warrens and either go for a Diminishing Returns or top deck for a Goblin Charbelcher. Why would you ever pre-emptively cast an answer to Empty the Warrens when summoning sickness gives you the opportunity to untap and cast it, when your opponent has committed his resources to the board?

Edit: Are we arguing the same point?

Leyline of the Meek is really, really good if Engineered Plague, Rain of Shards and Sandstorm catch on as the new default removal spell for those colors.

I think Wild Cantor is garbage, so I'm not going to bother arguing against it, but the problem with Street Wraith is that Street Wraith does not let you keep a hand because you can Cycle it, you just get to make a "six" or "five" card hand stronger with it. Leyline of the Meek does the same thing, but it does the same thing significantly better in the case of Empty the Warrens and not at all in the case of Goblin Charblecher. I think you NEED to play this card to statistically reduce your opponent's outs to your Empty the Warrens.

I play both Serum Powder and Leyline of the Meek in the last 8 slots.

3) I didn't mean cut all of your Shattering Spree for Oxidize, I meant play a set of Oxidize to SB in on the draw game 2 against Goblins. If your opponent waits a turn to play Chalice of the Void at 1, he's dead, so Oxidize is just using a less vital ESG to remove Chalice of the Void.

I was however not considering Faerie Stompy, where Force of Will is a possibility, but Chalice of the Void + Force of Will when you are on the draw is likely a game loss any way. If your opponent Chalices for 1 on the play against R/g Belcher, he made a mistake, because Chalice of the Void at 0 is better, and you should just imprint the removal spell and go about your business.

I'm kind of sketchy on that last point, if you play against bad players who make that mistake then I can see Shattering Spree, but my opponent's know the deck inside and out.

1) I guess your right that IT is only useful when can pop LED for black, then IT for ETW/Belcher, which costs more mana amount than Returns. I'm not saying running a Returns SB is bad, I'm just saying I prefer using IT, I may even put a Returns SB just because I can't think of anything better for my last 3 slots. Returns could get you 7 cards that dont win or give your opponent ETW hate or counter-magic, I guess it depends if you wanna gamble if they already have the answer or can get in 2-3 turns or if you wanna cast Returns, get lethal goblins, and then give them 7 new cards to find an anwser, of course this all depends on the mana you have available and what your up against.

Apparently you personally really do need to worry about ETW hate if the burden is actually on you to beat their hate rather than their hate to beat you, doesnt really make sense because this deck will go off turn one more often than people will have hate unless they really are overprepared for ETW, in which case I'm not even sure I'd play this deck.

2) I don't think preemptively playing the ETW hate is smart, I'd rather force the combo player to use their resoruces as well, but I think if people can somehow get a plague/EE/deed/watever before you go off they sometimes will, just so they don't have to worry about that any more and can start focusing on actually beating you. I was more saying that the hate comes after the the goblins not because people are smart but b/c the goblins come faster than the hate usually, so we basically are saying the same thing I think.

Street Wraith to me seems good because it replaces Dark Ritual, saying Street Wraith is a question mark is true but if you imagine it was a Dark Rit you'd realize the card you get with Wraith is usually more helpful than Dark Ritual. Rit sat in my hand dead so many times when I ran it and Wraith can become a useful spell. Obviously you wouldn't rely on Wraith's cycle making the hand playable, but in that case Dark Rit in its spot prolly wouldn't have made it playable either. If I was in an environment full of ETW hate I might pack Leyline, but I just don't see any need for where I play. I'm not 100% sold on Wild Cantor either, if I were to cut him I'd do Powder's over him but I havn't had great difficulting find a wincon in my opening 2 grips.

3) I still don't see what your saying on Oxidize, Oxidize can never remove a Chalice at 1, and it needs green mana which is harder to get ESP w/o Cantor. Red mana is more important true, but red is also so much easier to get making Spree better in that it cant really be countered and can take out multiple artifacts.

1) The important thing about Diminishing Returns is that after an opponent has mulliganed into an answer for Empty the Warrens, you can Burning Wish into Diminishing Returns and force them to redraw their hand, and then you can cast Empty the Warrens for 10+ storm and either leave them with out enough time to cast their 2/3cc answer to Empty the Warrens or leave them with out an answer. If your opponent has a 1cc answer, Rain of Blades, Sandstorm, Scorching Winds, then either Leyline of the Meek makes you immune to that answer or you can refuse to attack, use the 20 Goblins as a defensive wall and then find either Goblin Charbelcher or Burning Wish for Goblin Warstrike.

It's not unusual for prepared, not over prepared, opponents to have access to up to 8 answers to Empty the Warrens between the MD and the SB. Pernicious Deed is already a MD card in Landstill, Engineered Explosives is already a MD card in Threshold, Trinket Mage for Engineered Explosives and Living Wish for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale are already MD cards for Faerie Stompy, Bomberman, Gamekeeper/Salvagers and Cephalid Breakfast, Ghostly Prison, Magus of the Tabernacle and Windborn Muse are already MD cards for White Stax, Burning Wish is already a MD card for TES and Aggro-Loam, Pyroclasm, Earthquake and Devastating Dreams are already MD cards for mid-range aggro, aggro-control and Aggro-Loam, Sandstorm, Rain of Blades, Bloodfire Dwarf, Breath of Darigaaz, Slice and Dice and Echoing Decay are all MD answers that I think will see play in the future, Engineered Plague can see play in the MD and is already a SB card for many decks and Echoing Truth can see play in the MD if they are playing Merchant Scroll or may be in the SB.

It's not hard to see a deck using up to 8 answers against Empty the Warrens at all, you have to know how to play around that hate or play thru' that hate if you want to play with Empty the Warrens.

Edit: Ironically the only threat you have no conceivable defense against is Crop Rotation for The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

2) You should be using Serum Powder regardless of what the other card is, because Serum Powder increases the chance that this deck will find Land Grant, and sometimes finding Land Grant is the most important thing in this deck. Serum Powder and Leyline of the Meek also synergize with each other, so you have some discretion about what your starting hand will be.

3) The opponent should cast Chalice of the Void at 0 against R/g Belcher and not at 1, because the artifact acceleration is more important and more numerous than the 1cc acceleration. Assuming the opponent knows this, then Oxidize is no different than Shattering Spree, but Oxidize uses a less important Spirit Guide than Shattering Spree in order to remove the artifact.

It's really an irrelevant point, I'd probably play Shattering Spree any way since it imprints for a more important color in the event the opponent does cast Chalice of the Void.

Should I write a continuation to Hival's article? People don't seem to understand the dynamics of this deck in game 2/3 post board, and I think those dynamics are actually more important than game 1. Any one can win game 1 with deck by accident, but winning game 2/3 takes skill.

1) If your opponent mulls into ETW hate, you have other options such as Wish ---> Duress if you have another win-con in hand, or Wish ---> IT ---> Belcher if you have 2 more mana. I suppose having a Diminishing Returns SB as an option for when you have niether of these 2 cases cant hurt. I don't know why you worry about all of these crap commons no has ever heard and no one plays, but the only playable card Leyline of the Meek protects against is E. Plague, it doesnt help vs. Clasm, Deed, EE, Devastating Dreams, Rolling and normal Earthquake so I guess were gunna disagree on Leyline over Wraith/Cantor MD. And Tabernacle really doesnt seem to be much of a problem, shouldnt we stomp any deck running that? Its not like theyll have much of a clock...

EDIT: I guess Leyline turn 0 actually helps you be faster than some of those answers, didnt realize that..

2) Serum Powder might be better than Cantor, the only problem I have with it is that sometimes 6 card hands are fine and 7th card being Cantor just lets me get an extra storm, whereas Powder would leave me a dead card. In my experience the Cantor's transfer of mana to the next turn or the filtering of green to red seems more significant than the extra aid in finding a wincon Powder provides. Ill prolly try Powder though since dismissing it based on the deck owns hard enough now is prolly bad logic.

3) Yes chalice for 0 hurts more than chalice for 1, you and I know that because you play the deck but some people still try lay chalice for 1, esp if they draw 2 chalices, the 2nd will be for 1 assuming the first was for 0. Even in that situation though I like Spree for multiple kill possibilities but like you said it doesnt matter much as both work and both can be fit in.

The purpose of HiVal's article was to summarize the deck's matchup vs. Fish, which I think it did pretty well. I think it also did a pretty good job showcasing the deck except that I found the MD Pyroblasts a little odd, maybe that was b/c he knew he was gunna be playing vs. Fish. I'm not sure what you mean by game 2/3 dynamics, obviously you don't know for sure what if any hate they have for you but you can usually guess by what color/deck theyre running, seems like anyone running this deck should have a plan to counter the hate, the plan differing from list to list and SB to SB.

1) Burning Wish for Infernal Tutor or Duress just doesn't work that well, the Burning Wish is going to Time Walk the opponent into his turn and give him the chance to use other disruption cards and the resources expended on casting Duress could leave you with an unplayable hand (tho' I guess it's better than losing if you don't have Lion's Eye Diamond and you do have Lotus Petal).

Those commons aren't crap, Echoing Decay, Sandstorm and Rain of Blades are excellent removal spells for their colors in a format defined by Goblin Lackey and Empty the Warrens. No, you don't beat decks with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale any way, Gamekeeper/Salvagers will use it to sacrifice their Gamekeeper, Cephalid Breakfast has a fundamental turn of two, and you'll find it in Landstill and White Stax as a singleton.

The entire point of Leyline of the Meek is that it makes you immune to 1cc removal for Empty the Warrens, lets you race 2cc removal for Empty the Warrens on the play and lets you race 3cc removal for Empty the Warrens on the draw while increasing the goldfish rate and making hands with low count Empty the Warrens playable.

2) Serum Powder is the best non win condition, non mana source in the deck. You wont recognize it until you play dozens, if not hundreds of games with it and start calculating the virtual card advantage it saves you and the number of games it wins because you found Belcher instead of Empty the Warrens or a Shattering Spree or a Blast.

Wild Cantor isn't as awful as I thought, he and Street Wraith are fighting over the same slot since both of them are almost identical in their effects.

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Wild Cantor isn't as awful as I thought, he and Street Wraith are fighting over the same slot since both of them are almost identical in their effects.

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Wild Cantor mana fixes, mana accels, and give +1 to storm count. Street Wraith cycles. How do they do the same thing? Honestly I'd rather have the mana and the storm.

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Originally Posted by Cait_Sith

Wild Cantor mana fixes, mana accels, and give +1 to storm count. Street Wraith cycles. How do they do the same thing? Honestly I'd rather have the mana and the storm.

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Because both cards have the same effect on hands,

When Belcher draws Street Wraith or Wild Cantor, Belcher has to evaluate its hand based on the six other cards in it to see if it's playable, and if it's playable then either Street Wraith or Wild Cantor can be used to improve the hand. The difference is that Wild Cantor gives the deck less ??? in Belcher's hand, because the card can transfer mana from red to green or green to red, transfer mana from one turn to the next, imprint on Chrome Mox for 2 colors and add storm. Storm Wraith is doing the same thing, it's just doing it by hopefully cycling into another mana and/or storm.

The most interesting thing about Wild Cantor is that Burning Wish turns him into a Duress after the opponent mulligans for an answer to Empty the Warrens. That play isn't as good as casting Leyline of the Meek, but Leyline of the Meek doesn't have Wild Cantor's other abilities.

Wild Cantor and Street Wraith arn't the same at all. Wild Cantor can add mana for turn 2 but never for turn 1, altho sometimes it can turn ESG into red letting you combo off. Wraith however, assuming you keep a hand of wincon, 5 mana, wraith, will draw you into mana 4 out of 5 times (10 wincons left, 40 mana left, 3 wraiths left). Every mana spell in your deck (except Cantor) makes at least 1 mana, and Seething Song makes 2, LED 3 etc, so its a pretty accurate statement that Street Wraith is like .8 mana, or at leats 1 mana 4 of 5 times, making it probably better than Cantor. Wild Cantor does have other uses like helping you cast SB cards, but overall I think Cantor is the weakest card in the deck and would run Wraith every time.

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Echoing Decay, Sandstorm and Rain of Blades are excellent removal spells...

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I LOL'D.

But seriously, it would have to be one distorted meta for those cards to be even considered nearly playable, and if they are considered playable for some awful reason I wouldn't run an ETW deck in that case. Salvagers Game doesnt run Tabernacle as far as I know and isnt playable much if at all anyways, Cephalid Breakfast no one plays either, and vs. Stax I'd be more worried about 3sphere and Chalice which actually are ran in every list. I really find it hard to believe any good Landstill deck would run a Tabernacle, what are they gunna dig for it and recur it w/ Crucible? And Crop Rotation in Landstill is even more laughable in Landstill if thats why its a 1 of.

Again if you need to run 4 Leyline of the Meek MD to defend against all of these obscure spells I wouldn't run this deck in the first place, or any ETW deck.

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2) Serum Powder is the best non win condition, non mana source in the deck.

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You realize the whole deck is mana and wincons right? That statement basically said Serum Powder is the worst card in my deck (except I guess you think its better than Street Wraith). Thats not a very compelling arguement for inclusion, stating its worse than the whole rest of the deck. I'm still not sure Wild Cantor is better, I feel Wild Cantor is the weakest card in my list atm and apparently Serum Powder is the weakest card in your list as well, so they are probably close to equal.

1)

No one should be casting Wild Cantor and counting on the mana when it Time Walks into Daze, Stifle, Duress, Pithing Needle, 3cc Removal, Trinisphere, Chalice of the Void or Null Rod, Meddling Mage on the draw and it can be removed with Swords to Plowshares, Mogg Fanatic, Gempalm Incinerator or let Goblins Wasteland/Rishadan Port the Taiga or Tin Street Hooligan the Chrome Mox. If you are even playing Tinder Wall and passing the turn, you are probably playing the deck wrong, unless you are in game 2 against control and using the additional R to support a Blast on the following turn (you have to board out Wild Cantor for a set of Blasts against control)

2)

What creature removal is and isn't good in a format is based on the threats that define the format, Empty the Warrens and Goblin Lackey are the threats that define the format, and any creature removal that answers those threats is worth using. White, Green and Black do not have other less than 3cc answers to Empty the Warrens, so they're obligated to either use those cards or Engineered Explosives and Powder Keg.

Sandstorm is actually a really, really good removal spell in Landstill. I've been using a U/b/g Landstill list with 4 Sandstorm for awhile, and I have a favorable game against Goblins because of it. You either use the first Sandstorm to kill a Goblin Lackey or you save the first Sandstorm and use the second Sandstorm to turn them into a Pyroclasm. Echoing Decay isn't bad in the deck either, because it kills any Goblin, Meddling Mage and can 2 for 1.

Yes, Gamekeeper/Salvagers uses The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale as a sweeper/sacrifice out let and yes, people do play Cephalid Breakfast. I blame the apparent lack of Cephalid Breakfast in this format to too few Legacy players that play Extended, but any aggro-control deck with a fundamental turn of two is obviously going to see some play at some point.

It's really not that strange for me, because I'm in Europe, and the European metagame is frankly better than the American metagame at playing combo decks in numbers (look at the T8's in Germany).

3)

Look, R/g Belcher is 11 win conditions, 41 mana accelerants and 8 open slots. Of those 8 open slots, the possibilities are Serum Powder, Street Wraith, Leyline of the Meek, Red Elemental Blast, Pyro Blast, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Welder and Wild Cantor. Of those 8 open slots, I feel that Serum Powder is the best card in that slot, because the card optimizes the rest of the deck and affects the goldfish, so there are really only 4 open slots left. At that point, there is no other card that improves the deck's goldfish, because you have to evaluate Wild Cantor and Street Wraith based on the other cards in the hand making the hand playable (disregarding Wild Cantor as a possible mana source and what colors those cards imprint for).

I feel that Wild Cantor does a better job than Street Wraith at making the deck consistent, because I have to ask the same question about both cards when they are in my hand, but the answer to the question is immediately apparent with Wild Cantor.

That leaves Leyline of the Meek, which is the only other card that affects the goldfish while also serving as a form of disruption by protecting the tokens from Goblin Sharpshooter, Pyrokinesis, Mogg Fanatic, Engineered Plague, Plague Spitter, Sandstorm and Rain of Blades and Time Walking thru' 2cc and 3cc removal. It doesn't have the mana accelerating/fixing abilities of Wild Cantor, but it's effect is dramatic. If I had to just goldfish this deck in a vacuum, Serum Powder and Wild Cantor would be the right call, but I can't fit 8 Blasts, 4 Shattering Spree and 4 Leyline of the Meek in the SB, so one of those cards has to go into the MD, and Leyline of the Meek is the card that goes into my MD because it affects the goldfish and "disrupts."

I'm pretty sure every deck "will" use MD answers to Empty the Warrens, so having a pre-emptive disruption card for the opponent that also just makes Empty the Warrens more efficient and synergizes with Serum Powder seems more efficient.

Edit: I just left off Blasts and Swarm since other than imprinting them for on color mana on Chrome Mox they have no affect on the goldfish

Edit Edit: I forgot Living Wish, but I'm not even going to go there since Living Wish is one super complex card to evaluate.

Also, the entire "statement basically said Serum Powder is the worst card in my deck" argument is complete bull shit. I built R/g Serum Belcher before CRET built CRETBelcher on TheManaDrain, and I wouldn't even think of playing the deck with out Serum Powder. People are just developing R/g Belcher ass backwards out of CRETBelcher in this thread.

1) You can say you shouldn't do these things but the fact of the matter is sometimes you have to, no one would play Cantor/Wall and pass unless they had to, we can't all draw perfect hands every game...

2) 4 Sandstorm MD in Landstill, I'll let that one speak for itself I guess...and Echoing Decay too apparently...

Tabernacle in The Game and Cephalid Breakfast played? I'm not even sure what were discussing anymore here, niether of those decks are played often if ever. Last time I looked the Game used Innocent Blood/Cabal Therapy/Living Wish ---> K. Dead for a sac outlet but thats irrelevant because no one plays the Game. I guess there's some crazy European meta if you have to worry about that...

3) Yes I know the deck's core is 11 Wincons and 41 Mana Spells, and the last 8 vary. I guess its just a personal preference or the fact I dont need to worry about my opponents casting Echoing Decay or Sandstorm.

You were the one who said Serum Powder was "he best non win condition, non mana source in the deck", which says its worse than 52 other cards. While obviously this has to be true b/c the 52 cards are the core of the deck, I was merely stating that saying its inferior to those other 52 is not a good arguement for its inclusion because all cards considered in those last 8 slots would be "the best non win condition, non mana source in the deck" as they would be the ONLY non win condition, non mana sources.

1) Fine, but the point stands.

2) I could argue that 4 Swords to Plowshares in U/g/w Threshold are inferior, because 4 Swords to Plowshares fails at addressing the threats in the metagame, and that 4 Pyroclasm in U/g/r Threshold are superior because they succeed at addressing the threats of the metagame. Removal are reactive cards that should be based off the threats the deck expects to face and removal that eliminates both Goblin Lackey and Empty the Warrens is clearly viable on that basis.

Gamekeeper uses Living Wish -> K.Dead as a sacrifice out let? WTF is K.Dead being used for over Phyrexian Tower or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale? Cephalid Breakfast is going to see play, hell, any deck with Living Wish is going to play The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale if it can.

There's no explicit or implicit interpretation of "Serum Powder is the best non-win condition, non-mana source in the deck" that could lead the reader to assume that it's an argument against Serum Powder. Non-win condition, non-mana source just states the group of cards that Serum Powder is assigned to, and there's no reason to compare Serum Powder to those win conditions and mana sources because Serum Powder isn't competing for the same slots. You're misinterpreting the context of the statement, if I said "Morphling is the best non-permission, non-draw, non-mana source in mono blue control" does that mean that Morphling is worse than any of those other cards? Of course not, because there's no basis for comparison. Furthermore, I already stated that I SB out Seething Song for a set of Blasts, so I clearly value Serum Powder more than that mana source, even tho' the reasoning has nothing to do with a direct comparison between Seething Song and Serum Powder.

I'll lay it out, the first 4 cards in this deck are Serum Powder, it's that good.

I think your right about STP yes its not so good, I'd rather run UGr thresh w/ Clasm SB because Meddling Mage is often too slow anyway and STP doesnt answer ETW. I guess the difference is Pyroclasm is much less narrow then all those instants that do 1 damage because Clasm isn't just used to kill ETW, it serves other purposes.

I've always seen Kjeldoran Dead ran in SB of the Game to sac Gamekeeper because that lets you do it that turn rather than waiting til upkeep on Tabernacle, and not mana burning yourself on Tower I guess, plus you can still use the Dead after playing your land for the turn (turn 2 Rit, gamekeeper, turn 3 wish, dead, win). None of this really matters though because no one plays the Game anyways.

I'm not saying its an argument against Powder, I'm just saying yours wasnt a good arguement. Saying its the best of a small subset of 8 cards isn't really meaningful. I do see how it can be interpreted as "Powder is the best thing to run other than mana/kill", but originally it didnt sound that way to me it sounded like you were saying its good but worse than everything else in the deck much like Cantor is, but it can be read that Serum Powder is the best at what it does (not make mana or win) which is I guess what you meant.

I perfected Belcher last night,

"Back in Black"

4 Serum Powder
4 Street Wraith
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Unmask
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

Dark Ritual, Spoils of the Vault and Unmask solve all of the deck's problems. Dark Ritual is an additional counter target based on the "rule of 3" for Force of Will and Daze and increases the average mana production of the 1/2 cc Rituals (not counting 2xRight of Flame). Spoils of the Vault is a tutor that can find either Empty the Warrens or Goblin Charblecher, reducing the over reliance on Empty the Warrens. Spoils of the Vault serves as an accelerant and storm generator with Dark Ritual, storm generator with Cabal Ritual, mana fixer and storm generator with Lotus Petal, mana fixer, storm generator and permanent mana source with Chrome Mox, an accelerant, mana fixer and storm generator with Lion's Eye Diamond and disruption with Unmask. Replacing Seething Song for Unmask protects Land Grant and eliminates losing games to counters at the 3cc choke point and mass removal.

Serum Powder reduces the size of the deck and the RFG cards give you information about what you can/can't Spoils of the Vault for, so the chances of losing to Spoils of the Vault are much lower than any other deck. On average, you actually have more acceleration than any other version of Goblin Charbelcher because you get to factor in Spoils of the Vault.

I have one other version of Belcher that could be stronger than this, and the mechanic it uses could revolutionize combo, but I need more time with it. I'm convinced that Serum Powder, Spoils of the Vault, Unmask and Dark Ritual are the corner stones of the Belcher deck tho'.

The one weakness the deck gained between going from a red to black base was going from 17 tier 0 mana produces and losing the mana fixing of Tinder Wall, but 13 tier 0 mana producers and the mana fixing of Spoils of the Vault is still acceptable within combo standards when Unmask is protecting them from Force of Will and the Spirit Guides are protecting them from Daze.

Street Wraith is just filler for Unmask and Chrome Mox that has a chance of turning into mana.

This is the fastest combo deck in the format, and it's favorable against both Threshold and Landstill (no bull shit). You can win with as few as 4 cards in your hand as long as your holding Spoils and LED.

You are running 61 cards. This is going to cause problems with Spoils of the Vault and the percentages of having a win condition in hand after mulling.

Oh come on! You know the word "perfected" together with a list that has absolutely no results outside of your own testing (which can't be much when you just made it "last night") will only result in earning you a lot of flames. Especially as your deck is 61 cards.
It seems like you have a harder time getting the right colors than the original version that interestingly also played Dark Ritual.
How often do you Spoils yourself to death? How often do you mulligan into oblivion? How often do you hit your Bayou before Belcher is lethal?

Quote:

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I have one other version of Belcher that could be stronger than this, and the mechanic it uses could revolutionize combo, but I need more time with it. I'm convinced that Serum Powder, Spoils of the Vault, Unmask and Dark Ritual are the corner stones of the Belcher deck tho'.

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Uhm ok...

All the negative criticism aside I really like how you were able to fit Unmask into the maindeck. This could make Belcher a lot stronger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Silverdragon

Oh come on! You know the word "perfected" together with a list that has absolutely no results outside of your own testing (which can't be much when you just made it "last night") will only result in earning you a lot of flames. Especially as your deck is 61 cards.
It seems like you have a harder time getting the right colors than the original version that interestingly also played Dark Ritual.
How often do you Spoils yourself to death? How often do you mulligan into oblivion? How often do you hit your Bayou before Belcher is lethal?

Uhm ok...

All the negative criticism aside I really like how you were able to fit Unmask into the maindeck. This could make Belcher a lot stronger.

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I didn't need to PT the list that much, I have 1000+ logged games with Belcher since Jan., it was apparent that Unmask, Spoils of the Vault and Dark Ritual solved all of the tactical problems while leaving strategic problems with the mana base and Tinder Wall.

Edit: This deck isn't new to me, because I've had similar versions since

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=31990.90

and I still use that final version - Infernal Tutor + Serum Powder and some alterations to the mana base,

Color screw aside, the deck mulligans so much less than CRET or R/g Belcher because Spoils of the Vault doesn't require LED, Seething Song or double Right of Flame to find a win condition (see Burning Wish) and it can serve as an accelerant and mana fixer. The number of times the game is lost to Spoils of the Vault are irrelevant compared to the number of times the game is won to Spoils of the Vault for being the best tutor for this deck, and between using Serum Powder to thin the deck and inform Spoils of the Vault on what to/not to Spoils for, you wont kill yourself that often.

Between Serum Powder, Land Grant and Spoils of the Vault I haven't hit the land so far.

The deck isn't 61 cards, it's more like 53 cards since Serum Powder and Street Wraith are "null space" in the deck. Feel free to cut a Street Wraith, I didn't even notice the list was 61 cards, I imagine it's because I forgot that moving the Empty the Warrens to the SB for Burning Wish is what freed up the land slot. The Street Wraith slot can be almost anything, because it's only there to support Unmask and Chrome Mox. Feel free to run Plunge into Darkness or whatever in that slot because I don't take it into consideration when goldfishing.

Unmask, Dark Ritual, Serum Powder and Spoils of the Vault are what break the deck in half, so I'm certain I'm on the right track. It's just a question of getting the mana base to co-operate. I think I've figured it out, but I need more time to be sure, because the implications are radical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

1)
It's really not that strange for me, because I'm in Europe, and the European metagame is frankly better than the American metagame at playing combo decks in numbers (look at the T8's in Germany).

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Ok Im looking.. Off Morphling this is the top 8 of the year so far..

Herxheim 01.06.2007
1. Survival
2. Gro
3. Gobs
4. Gobs
5. Landstill
6. Counter Burn
7. Pox
8. Life (WHAT A COMBO DECK!!)

Columbus 04.03.2007
1. Gobs
2. Boros
3. Thresh
4. Fish
5. Affinity
6. Deadguy
7. Iggy (COMBO!)
8. Mono Black Discard

Karlsruhe 24.02.2007
1. Boros
2. Red Gro
3. Life (AGAIN OMG!!)
4. Landstill
5. Landstill
6. Fish
7. Fish
8. Survival

Nijmegen 14.01.2007
1. Landstill
2. Deadguy
3. Affinity
4. Deadguy
5. Terrageddon
6. ?
7. Sligh
8. Terrageddon

Düsseldorf 06.01.2007
1. Gobs
2. Übermadness
3. Fish
4. Landstill
5. Übermadness
6. Gobs
7. Ichorid
8. Fish

So three out of fourty decks are combo.

As for your new list, it really seems like your development is running backwards. I dont feel the need to tell you why since everyone in this thread already agrees on about 54 cards in the deck. Your new build is off the wall and doesnt include Burning Wish. Spoils has always been terrible in the deck and it hasnt been till recently that the deck was able to aleviate the problem with better cards.

Your 'null' space at 61 cards isnt null when your adding cards over 60 to create the null. I dont understand your logic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

I perfected Belcher last night,

"Back in Black"

4 Serum Powder
4 Street Wraith
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Unmask
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

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I don't see why Black rituals are better than Red rituals. Cabal Ritual is the same as Desperate Ritual and while Dark Ritual is better than all of them that's probably a reason to include Dark Ritual, but probably not Cabal Ritual. Also if you want to play protection in this deck it seems that Pyroblast does almost the same thing but lets you play 12 Rituals instead of only 8.

That list shouldn't even be in the CRET Belcher thread, this is just like Belcher circa 2004 with ETW and Wraith...

There are so many problems here, you cant support 4 Unmask and 4 Chrome Mox on 20 blacks cards that all actually want to cast/cycle. All this deck did was turn Belcher into BG rather than RG, Cabal Rit = Desperate rit, Dark rit = Rite of Flame, Spoils = Burning Wish, Unmask apparently for Seething Song. I don't think this is very smart though because this makes the Spirit Guides worse, Tinder Wall worse, and ETW harder to cast. I guess Spoils basically makes it like your running 8 Belcher 4 ETW rather than 4 Belcher 7 ETW, except sometimes youll have to cast Belcher and sit on it, and the life loss from Spoils can make it so people can actually kill you before you get the mana to activate Belcher. It seems to me that you fear ETW removal WAY too much, it seems like your trying to sacrifice some speed for protection with this deck which is a bad idea. If you go Unmask removing Black Card and miss, you just Hymned yourself and prolly have to wait to go off. Even if you hit, you still cant go off yet w/ 5 cards in hand, and if they are playing Counters they prolly have cantrips too in order to dig for more. Belcher is good because it FORCES them to have it in their starting hand or lose, and they still have to play it at the right time. Your deck is also much worse in topdeck mode if it does get stopped, 4 Powder 4 Unmask are dead topdecks, along with all the Spirit Guides and Tinder Walls that dont help you cast your mana spells.

Also do something about the 61 cards, its a huge double standard to want to run Powder and Wraith to play less cards but then play more than the min. total.

@Bane of the Living,

http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/siegerdecks.htm

That should be more useful than Morphling.de if their database is still intact.

@Bovinius

That's an over simplification, the difference between Dark Ritual and Right of Flame and Spoils of the Vault and Burning Wish are tremendous, because Dark Ritual draws the Force of Will and Spoils of the Vault is a more efficient tutor for either win condition and can be used to fix mana, generate storm and accelerate. Seething Song is a god awful top deck, so replacing it with Unmask isn't a significant down grade, and Unmask prevents the deck from going into top deck mode in the first place. The deck can support Unmask and Chrome Mox because Unmask and Chrome Mox aren't RFGing the same cards to begin with and Unmask can be RFGed to Chrome Mox.

As I said, 61 cards was an over sight caused from replacing Burning Wish for Spoils of the Vault and returning the 4th Empty the Warrens to the MD, you can cut a Street Wraith because that card slot is only used as a place holder.

This shell is the right shell, it's the mana base that needs to be dealt with, and I think I've figured out how to do it. To be honest, this list was just intended as a segway into the next list that I'll post tomorrow, after all of the goldfishing is done. I think there's a legitimate reason to return to black that will be so obvious once you see the tech.

@Anwar101

Blasts don't protect against removal, I'll address the other points later.

So Dark Ritual is good because it gets countered? I recognize 3 mana for 1 mana is good and Dark Rit is a good card so much so that original CRET splashed it but that statement made no sense. Spoils wouldnt need to fix mana if you werent playing black to begin with, Cabal Ritual is the same as desperate ritual and Rite of Flame is synonymous to Dark ritual, and is mre useful because it can actually be used to cast ETW, your win con, or a Wish to find and cast your win con. Unmask and Song are about equally bad topdecks but you run Powder as well for 8 bad topdecks, just seems like youd have a harder time coming back when you get answered or after Hymning yourself with Unmask. Mox will want to RFG a black card about half the time it looks like from ur list, since you want to be able to cast Dark Rit and apparently Spoils, 20 black cards just seems low to me for Unmask and Mox especially when you need those black cards to actually win the game. The manabase does need some kind of fixing if your going to stay in black but to fix Id just go back to RG.

I agree w/ Anwar in that Pyroblast just seems better than Unmask, ESP in your new list that apparently is scared to cast ETW and is willing to use Spoils to find Belcher. If your using Powder and Spoils to find Belcher I think you should be more worried about them countering your Belcher than them Sandstorming or whatever cards you fear your ETW tokens which you would rather not create. You could probably support the Pyroblasts if you put in Rite of Flame rather than Tinder Wall, added a Taiga, and possibly Wild Cantors. Something like -4 Wraith -4 Unmask -4 Tinder Wall +1 Taiga +2 Wild Cantor +4 Pyroblast +4 Rite of Flame, with the the last Wraith removed cutting to 60 cards. All of this seems like a lot of work just to cast Belcher a little bit more of the time but thats prolly the best way to do it.

Here's an example,

Turn one Chrome Mox imprinting red card, Right of Flame, Desperate Ritual and now the opponent must Force of Will the Desperate Ritual or risk SG generating a 4th mana and casting Empty the Warrens.

Net loss, 2 cards and 3 storm.

Compare that to,

Turn one Chrome Mox imprinting black card, Dark Ritual "see above"

Net loss, 1 card and 2 storm.

Yes, Dark Ritual is the best ritual because of B for BBB, but it also affects the opponent's Force of Will options to serve as pseudo disruption. The reason this isn't the case in CRETBelcher is because the deck can't count on Dark Ritual with out losing a Wild Cantor or a Lotus Petal to cast it in the process.

Yes, Spoils of the Vault has to be used to fix mana sometimes, but other times it's a tutor for a win condition or an accelerant.

20 black cards is more than enough to support Unmask and Chrome Mox, AfFOWnity used 16 cards to support Force of Will and Chrome Mox, and this deck can just imprint Unmask to Chrome Mox or just use the Chrome Mox to imprint a Spirit Guide for permanent mana, a second win condition, a second Land Grant, a Spoils of the Vault or a Spirit Guide for permanent mana. Unmask is easier to support on the draw, but if need be the deck can pass the turn to fish for another black card against control. You also seem to be forgetting that the Blasts will cost the deck two cards to use as well, all of the mana is one time mana and the mana for the Blast had to be made up elsewhere.

I'll post the updated versions of the deck in another thread, because they are just too far gone from CRETBelcher or R/gBelcher to be in here. You can expect them to be up in the early hours of the morning.

I haven't read all the posts so please exuse me if I'm asking something that has been discussed already. I've been playing belcher in vintage and I'm running 4 Pact of Negation in the main along with 3 goblin welders for the late game. Has anyone tested Pact in 1.5? It's amazing when you're comboing and your opponent disrupts you going off, you respond with pact if you know you can win on your next upkeep. Stack the pact trigger then in response tap 3 and belcher and win.

As for welder he's been amazing welding in an LED or belcher into play after you've activated an LED. How many times have you had an LED + 1 artifact and a belcher in your hand? With welder in play just use the LED then weld in belcher ftw. It's worked numerous times in vintage, I wouldn't know how well it would work in legacy though.

Just my $0.02

Pact of Negation has horrible synergy with Empty the Warrens. It could be a consideration in Breathweapon's build, which lessens the focus on EtW, but that version already runs Unmask for pretty much the same effect, and with a lesser drawback.

Welder was seen in old Belcher lists (long before EtW was printed), until people noticed that in Legacy, a 1/1 Goblin with a powerful ability cannot seriously expect to untap alive.

Pact of Negation seems like a really bad protection option, worse than Pyroblast and probably even Unmask. You cant use it if your planning on using an ETW kill and it loses you the game if you flip the land with Belcher.

I think Welder is better in Vintage because you have all the SoloMoxen and Sol Ring/Vault/Crypt etc. as permanent artifact mana sources to sac to Welder, that in addition to there being more creature removal in Legacy, so Welder likely wouldn't live to do his job if he would even have the opportunity to do it.

Could we shift discussing to optimizing the sideboard of Ewokslayer's posted deck? I find it to be the most consistantly explosive. Sure a misplaced FoW or early Pyroclasm can ruin your day but you got to remember we are playing combo. These things happen.

What is your guys' opinions on adding Life from the Loam to the sideboard? In my testing it's incredible in rebuilding your hand if your opponent hoses your first kill condition. Also, while highly unlikely, you theoretically can pump out a storm count of up to 10 by wishing for LotL with an EtW in your hand and choice mana acceleration in the yard.

How about Grapeshot for those last points of damage to your opponent's dome and random spot removal?

How does Loam rebuild your hand? I think you are reading the card wrong. Just reread it and get back to us.

I do like the idea of putting a chain lightning in the board. I always hated getting to 17 or 18 and pulling a fucking land off the top.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jak.

I do like the idea of putting a chain lightning in the board. I always hated getting to 17 or 18 and pulling a fucking land off the top.

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We already have Cave-In in the board for the last two damage. I used it several times and almost always I pitch a red card into it with no mana left (not even one for Chain Lightning).

For a finisher that takes more than two life Demonfire seems to be good. You can wish it on one turn and cast it later when you have more mana accel, or with LED mana (cracked in response to the wish). With hellbent its should be pretty bad news for counter heavy decks.

Another SB card I would like to test some time is the red Akroma. It comes in for game 2&3 (3 or 4 copies instead of Pyroblast) to give you another win condition against Fish, Threshold, etc. Sure its difficult to hardcast it but these decks usually have no answer to it and the card can't be discarded with Duress. If you decide to win another way the angel can always be imprinted into a chrome mox or pitched into Cave-In.

How often do you get 8 mana? From my limited testing, not many, but then again i might be wrong...

I agree that we need to try and optimize the SB, I've seen a lot of variation within lists some of which being very puzzling.

I think there are about 12/13 cards that most people can agree belong SB, then the rest of the slots can vary:

4 Pyroblast (unless these are MD for some reason, in this case prolly REBs here)
4 Shattering Spree
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Cave-In
1 Simplify

I've pretty much always seen those 13 ran, except sometimes not the IT.

So for the ohter two slots our options are:

Duress
Goblin War Strike
Hull Breach
Reverent Silence
Tranquility
Diminishing Returns
more REBs

I'm kind of partial to running Diminishing Returns and Hull Breach atm, but really am not sure about those last 2 slots, it may be just a personal preference.

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Originally Posted by Hummingbird TG

How often do you get 8 mana?

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That's the problem with Akroma. You have to build up a bit and multiple Rite of Flame help alot. When boarding it in I would definately board out other win conditions for it as every non-mana card is much more worse in the deck when trying to reach 8 mana instead of 4.

You almost never get 8 mana, sometimes if you draw LED LED Wish you can but you can't even Wish for Akroma...seriously I'd much rather play Storm Entity than Akroma.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

You almost never get 8 mana, sometimes if you draw LED LED Wish you can but you can't even Wish for Akroma...seriously I'd much rather play Storm Entity than Akroma.

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Maybe Im missing something here but isnt the point to play her morphed then flip her? Shes only 3 mana to play face down and a seething song away from a flip really.

I wasn't aware why people were putting such an awful card in their SBs, but I heard people talking about 8 mana, I think the point was you could play it face down then morph it up later but also she was an uncounterable threat at 8 mana. Either way I'd play Storm Entity way before I'd run Akroma and I don't think I'd run Storm Entity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bane of the Living

Maybe Im missing something here but isnt the point to play her morphed then flip her? Shes only 3 mana to play face down and a seething song away from a flip really.

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Akroma costs 6 to unmorph but you can use LED for it anyway.

Yes something like the following is possible:

5 cards:
Bayou -> Dark Ritual
LED
LED
Play Morph
Crack LED's -> unmorph

There alot of other possible routes but you can also hardcast it after 2-3 turns of set-up. LED's are also quite nice to pump the angel.

Sure the opponent can still counter your mana spells but he can do this with Belcher and EtW kills, too. In fact he can even counter the Belcher and EtW (via Stifle). Also the other hate boarded like Engineered Plague and Needle for example are not very useful against Akroma, delaying the kill for a turn or two at most.

Thats what I was thinking, the only time Akroma can really be brought out quick is via a pair LEDs. Thing is I'd rather Burning Wish ---> Infernal Tutor and get either Belcher or ETW then, those options are just as susceptible to counters as Akroma because they can still Counter the morph. For your example the question I've gotta ask is why are you still running Bayou and Dark Ritual, but I guess thats another issue entirely.

Where did all this Red Akroma business come from? Are people siding out ETW for Akroma in the face of E. Plague? If thats the case, that E. Plague is that prominent for you, I'd suggest Storm Entity instead, itll often be a 6/6 or 7/7 Haste, which is usually a 3 turn clock, and also by 3-4 turns you may draw enough cards to cast a belcher or small ETW. I wouldn't really suggest this in general but if ETW tokens getting swept by E. Plague/Pyroclasm/watever I'd suggest Storm Entity rather than Akroma.

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Originally Posted by Bovinious

Where did all this Red Akroma business come from? Are people siding out ETW for Akroma in the face of E. Plague? If thats the case, that E. Plague is that prominent for you, I'd suggest Storm Entity instead, itll often be a 6/6 or 7/7 Haste, which is usually a 3 turn clock, and also by 3-4 turns you may draw enough cards to cast a belcher or small ETW.

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Several posts earlier I proposed Akroma as a possible sideboard card instead of Pyroblasts. The purpose is to have another kill condition that can bounce most of the hate of decks like Fish and Grow. I would board it against decks that pack alot of counters only.
Nobody wants to play it just because of Engineered Plague and btw. Storm Entity is strictly inferior. It can be chump blocked you can sword it and it can be countered. Every BEB can kill the card as well as Engineered Explosives.

What I said regarding Engineered Plague is that it's another card that isn't useful against Akroma, as well as Pithing Needle, Explosives, Pyroclasm, Stifle, etc. Just to list some cards of the common hate you have to face at the moment.

Besides I never played the version with black but the Street Wraith version. I just tested the Akroma SB in the black version as this deck can shore up more mana with Dark Ritual. I feared that casting it is too difficult but it isn't. I still have to try it in the RG build.

I really dont see how your going to get to 8 mana through a wall of counters, especially without Seething Song which is what you should be SBing out against decks with counters, it just begs to get countered. Also whats to stop them from just countering your face down? I'm not advocating Storm Entity over Akroma I think both suck but I'd probably try Storm Entity before Akroma.

By the way you can't say one is strictly worse than the other, they dont even function similarly at all theres no possible way you can say one is strictly better, CRET Belcher even proves you cant say REB is strictly better than Pyroblast because this is one of the few decks where you actually want to be able to waste the 'Blast. Just be careful with statements like that in the future.