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This hurts your credibility a lot, since Kiki-Jiki can copy your beloved Ringleader all day long, thus reproducing its CIP ability literally every single turn. The Jeek is like 12 Ringleaders duct taped together.Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman34
@Roopey:
What do you do about the whole "scoop to CoP:Red" thing? Wouldn't it behoove you to splash white for Disenchant? Your list is pretty close to mine, but I'm running 20 land and the white splash so I don't flat-out lose to white.
Moved by popular vote to LMF. The deck has been placing well in several different metagames, is well-known, and has a (mostly) optimized decklist upon which most players agree. It's also the strongest pure aggro deck in the format, if you consider RG Survival to be Aggro-Control. A cleaned up thread with a fully optimized list and card choices, strategy explanation, and matchup analysis will replace this one soon. -Zilla
Actually there will be Pithing Needles in the board to deal with troublesome things as that. Pithing Needle stops to many things that hurt this deck for it not to be in the board. Also cool since now I don't have to splash any colors.
Woot for Meta Forum!
Roop
Pithing Needle doesn't answer Pariah (Angel Stompy) or Worship (Angel Stompy/Amazing Results II). Thoughts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
Anarchy?
:Slay:
Play Anarchy instead of Pithing Needle, as Needle is teh terrible card.
Needle answers a ton of things. As I've already gotten into in other threads. You're going to want to use Needle to handle some of the more powerful threats against you, not limited to equipment, CoP:Red, Survival, and even random stuff like Ravenous Baloth (from R/G, one of your most awful matchups).
I currentl play anarchy and i have never sideboarded it in so pithing needle will replace it also
needle stops
welder
Mishra's factory
deed
cursed scroll
needle is nuts
Pithing Needle is better than Anarchy in many ways, many of which were already mentioned, so I won't remention them. But the problem of Pariah and Worship is easily remedied because no one around here plays ASStompy because its a horrible deck.
Roop
By playing needle over Plateau, you also rule out the chance of getting wastelanded on a 2 land hand...And it comes out as soon as you need it.
It's a horrible deck that can flat out win against you turn 3 and do it consistently if it wants to. If Vial Goblins is as popular as you say it is in your metagame, then subjectively speaking AS is a strong meta choice where you are, regardless of you feelings about the deck's strength from an objective standpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Roopey
When I hear someone say "this deck never fails to Top 8", my first response is always to ask, "then why aren't people playing X card or deck that flat out kicks your ass?" I wasn't asking you if people do play it - I was asking how you intend to cope with it if they do.
Godzilla people have already sideboarded cards for vial goblins people have been main decking
E. Plague
Cop Red
plague spitter
humility
and goblins have still won.
Because of this i am gonna try out r/w vial goblins to deal with some of these threats.
Truth be said the only cards that Goblins should worry about that Needle can't stop are Worship and Pariah, but these are used so randomly that Needle becomes better just because it circumvents more threats than Anarcy does.
I must say I've put Needles in several SB of my decks.
And how does the deck get any worse by adding 4 plateau to the MD and 4 Disenchant to the SB ? I mean it always have been the main problem of Gobo (gg-like artifact or enchantment, and mass removal), in extended or last year Type 2 they played Naturalize, but in Legacy I think Disenchant is the way to go, with Sword to Plowshare in White (no one can spit on the best creature removal of Magic no ?), and the Main Deck loses nothing, baring the wastelandable lands, which is sad but heck, I would whine myself if there would be no drawback at all in playing RW goblin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bastian
For Mass Removal, holding a Ringleader in hand can help, or a SGC, but it's still hard for sure. Against Red and Black mass removal, I'm tempted to test Goblin King, but no, just no...
Skippy already answered this. I'll quote him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Fleury
Vial Goblins is the kind of deck that never wants to lose tempo...especially to something like Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkippyTheLemming
Pithing Needle does surprisingly little to Silver Knight, Exalted Angel, Solitary Confinement, and Pulse of the Fields.
Quoted for truth. The point is that the white splash provides you Disenchant for the annoying game-stopping enchantments and artifacts, and provides Swords as a convenient way of removing creatures with Pro:Red or an ass end bigger than 3-4. Pithing Needle is only half a solution in that regard. You can say that Pithing Needle is good against a lot of decks, but I've done a little research, and it turns out that Disenchant and StP are good against more than one deck in the format as well. Shocking, I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin
Anarchy is decent tech against white, but it's much more narrow than Disenchant, StP, or Pithing Needle.
Claims that Plateaus can be Wasted and therefore screw up your tempo is a ridiculous argument against a splash. First of all, you're playing Wasteland yourself, and those can be Wasted, which can screw up your tempo. Using a Wasteland on your opponent also screws with your tempo. And yet, the deck plays Wastelands. Why? Because the flexibility it provides outweighs the potential cost of disruption. I posit that running Plateaus is no different in this regard.
Furthermore, there's no reason to run a full 4 Plateaus. Game one, you don't need them, and games two and three, you'll only need one on the table at any given time. Want to avoid having your Plateaus Wasted? Run two of them and 8 fetches. If you don't want your Plateau to get Wasted, don't fetch one. This isn't rocket surgery.
true white provides diesenchant but I have done some testing and splashing green wouldn't be to terrible. I think it should be tested a little furthur.
Capitalization, spelling, and grammar are important aspects of any post, particularly when posting in the LMF. Try to concentrate on them in the future, as unwillingeness to do so will result in a warning. -Zilla
White provides Disenchant and Swords to Plowshares. Green provides Naturalize and what? Artifact Mutation? That might have been important when Workshop was unrestricted, but I see no need for it now. What else is there? Choke for the Landstill matchup maybe, but beyond that I can't think of a single reason why you'd want green over white.Quote:
Originally Posted by calosso
Kird ape. Duh.
You + spam = warning. You've been on these boards long enough to know the site rules. Start following them. Three word posts are not useful. If you think that a non-goblin creature card is an obvious inclusion in an all goblins deck, you're sorely mistaken. If you're being sarcastic, your post is still spam. -Zilla
Green gives you Food Chain, which, in combination with Kiki-Jiki, SGC, Matron, or Ringleader just makes the game unfair.
It also gives Ground Seal, which is nice in some metagames, and a few other goodies I can't name right now. City of Solitude, maybe?
In addition, it allows you to play a single Forest because it is fetchable.
:Slay:
I don't necessarily dispute this, but if it were true, why aren't people doing it? Back when Recruiter was unrestricted I tested Vial in FCG and it seemed like the Vial and Food Chain were in competition. In many regards, the two cards fill the same role in the deck, which is as an accellerant for your threats. For Ringleader to work properly, particularly without Recruiter in the mix, you want the highest concentration of goblins possible in the deck. Food Chain obviously doesn't help with that. It also requires you to remove actual threats to make room for it which hurts your redundancy. In FCG, it was obviously worth it because it Just Won Games™, but that's not the case in Vial Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
Is the accelleration really worth the tempo cost, the harm to your redundancy, the weaker threatbase, and the worse game against control? Maybe, but I have doubts. Has anyone actually tested it?
I haven't personally tested it, I've only seen it go off due to Kiki and Ringleader, but the deck has to run multiple copies of kiki, which can potentially cause problems if you draw multiples without a Food Chain on the table. I haven't seriously considered it, although it was pretty brutal watching it go off.
Can you explain how it "goes off" with multiple Jeeks? Just use a Jeek to copy Ringleader, sac him to Food Chain, cast another, repeat? That doesn't sound that reliable, since there's no way to ensure you'll draw into another Jeek. It also sounds like it would make it even easier than it already is for Landstill to beat you. Am I missing something?Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel
QFTQuote:
I don't necessarily dispute this, but if it were true, why aren't people doing it? Back when Recruiter was unrestricted I tested Vial in FCG and it seemed like the Vial and Food Chain were in competition. In many regards, the two cards fill the same role in the deck, which is as an accellerant for your threats. For Ringleader to work properly, particularly without Recruiter in the mix, you want the highest concentration of goblins possible in the deck. Food Chain obviously doesn't help with that. It also requires you to remove actual threats to make room for it which hurts your redundancy. In FCG, it was obviously worth it because it Just Won Games™, but that's not the case in Vial Goblins.
The reason Food Chain was so powerful was because of stacking your deck with Recruiter and going off and gaining crazy amounts of mana until you finally overwhelmed them.
Now, you have a limited amount of creatures, with only Matrons to search for Ringleaders, which could end up being dead draws and result in card disadvantage.
Vial does the exact same thing as a Food Chain would, except it doesn't scream card disadvantage, and comes down on turn 1, whereas Food Chain would come down on turn 3.
IMO, it's just really not all that viable, or needed for that matter. This deck is already fast, can sometimes race combo and holds its own against aggro. Adding Food Chain would hardly even improve the speed of the deck, as you would be taking out Goblins, making the deck less consistant, which in turn would hurt Food Chain, and Ringleader for that matter.
Like CA, I've only seen a Goblins deck use it, I've never tested it out for myself. What I have seen is a third-turn Food Chain, then a Fourth-turn Matron fetching Ringleader casting Ringleader grabbing three goblins including a SGC casting SGC getting 9 mana dumping your hand and winning the next turn, or this turn if you have a Warchief in the mix. It's probably a win-more card, but if it hits the field, you're going to end up winning the game. You don't even have to replace threats with it, you could go -1 Vial -1 Land +2 Food Chain.
Functionally, I'd say it's the equivalent of a double Lackey when talking about the mid-game(obviously Lackey is way better early game), you get to lackey out what you want, then abuse its CIP effect, then lackey again with the CIP effect netting you cards.
But more testng would be required.
:Slay:
EDIT: Godzilla, that doesn't work. The Kiki would be whomped by the newfangled Legend Rule, and you would get a good taunting. What i assume would happen is Ringleader generated ridiculous card advantage, Kiki copied Ringleader, generating even more card advantage, Ringleader and copy are sacked for 10 mana, hand is dumped, you win the prize.
Taking out a land in a deck that can run as low as 19 lands for a 2G spell just doesn't seem like it would work. Also, if you are running 3 Vials, -1 Vial is simply just out of the question, as the reason the deck can run 19-20 lands is because of Vial.
I would like to see the list you'd be taking the -1 land and -1 Vial out of.
<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote (Slay @ June 13 2005,9:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">EDIT: Godzilla, that doesn't work. The Kiki would be whomped by the newfangled Legend Rule, and you would get a good taunting.[/quote]
Not if you sacced the first Jeek to Food Chain like I said in my post, no? I understand that he's a legend.
I profess to know nothing about Vial Goblins, I don't even have a list created and I've never played with the deck in my life. However, I've played against it numerous times, and I can say that on the third turn, a Food Chain can get ridiculous in a deck designed to abuse it the most thoroughly. I only mention it because it's definitely sped the kill up by a lot, and the extra juice needed to beat out a hasty Sharpshooter might warrant it begin played.
On the other hand, I haven't seen the other guy's hand, and I don't know if he had Food Chains stuck in his hand unusable because there were better things to do, or because they would be dead cards in the circumstances. But again, it certainly warrants testing.
:Slay:
EDIT: Godzilla, your wording made me think you were sacking the Ringleader to the Food Chain. My bad.
Having co-created FCG for 1.5 and played it probably more than any other single deck, I can agree with this sentiment. However, even when Recruiter was unrestricted, Food Chain rarely if ever resolved against control. Landstill was always FCG's worst matchup, and by adding Food Chain to Vial Goblins, you'd be worsening its matchup with Landstill too, and it already isn't good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slay
Basically, Food Chain may improve your aggro matchup some, but in most cases you should already beat aggro easily. It seems to me that adding Food Chain will slightly strengthen your already strong matchups and significantly weaken your already bad ones. Admittedly I could be wrong, but I think it's likely you'll see it pan out that way in testing.
Yeah, it was confusingly worded. My apologies.Quote:
EDIT: Godzilla, your wording made me think you were sacking the Ringleader to the Food Chain. My bad.
What about against RG Survival Advantage? Would the extra turn Food Chain speeds you up (possibly) be enough to just barely squeak out the win before hasty sharpshooter or recurring baloths get online?
And speaking of Landstill, if green was added to the deck, what about City of Solitude? Is it too slow? It means that you can save up until a later turn, and then bust out with SGC + Warchief + Piledriver and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, not even block or pop a disk.
:Slay:
The problem with the Landstill matchup isn't the counters, but the board sweepers. Wrath + Disk (or Akroma's Vengence) is what causes you to lose after you've overcommitted the board. And don't forget StP. Vial can slip under counters (outside of FoW) and help you get some Goblins in play, but you still have to watch out for the mass destruction spells.Quote:
And speaking of Landstill, if green was added to the deck, what about City of Solitude? Is it too slow? It means that you can save up until a later turn, and then bust out with SGC + Warchief + Piledriver and there's not a damn thing they can do about it, not even block or pop a disk.
I still think the best way to play against Landstill is going with the black splash for Therapy and Duress (post board), but it's still difficult.
Quoted for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by LunchBox
Landstill is a bitch of a Matchup, in all forms. The match takes some intelligent play, knowing when to cast your Therapies and Duress in the R/b deck, and knowing the limit between "enough threats" and "over extension" so you don't get extremely decimated by the Turn 4 Wrath. Without the Black splash, Landstill is even harder of a matchup, but we're not currently discussing splash routes right now.
Also, yes Zilla, the "going off" involved playing ringleader, getting Kiki on the table, copying Ringleader, RFGing and irrelevant goblin to play another matron for Kiki, RFG Jeek to play Jeek2, copy ringleader, etc... Requires more luck than I think it's worth, but I think it has the same "I Win" qualities of resolving Living Death or Bidding in most matchups. If the deck is built right, you should just win.
Figured. In an all aggro meta, the green splash for Food Chain might be a decent choice, but in any meta with control, I think it's a major folly. To make room for Food Chain and still retain effective Ringleader draws, you pretty much have to remove Vials for Food Chains. This in itself harms your control matchup because you're removing ways to play uncounterable goblins for a card that costs three times as much and will never resolve against control.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorruptedAngel
Then you must remove 3 utility goblins that properly fit your curve and replace them with 3 5cc goblins that will never resolve against control, and that are dead in multiples without Food Chain on the table, again, totally screwing your game against control.
Essentially, the Food Chain combo is win more against your good matchups and completely assfucks your tough ones. It doesn't seem like the best choice as far as competitiveness is concerned. It does sound fun, though.
Why should a control player ever counter Food Chain?
The problem with Food Chain against control isn't that it gets countered; if it were actually a threat that would make it good. Food Chain sucks because it doesn't swing, and because Ringleaders already have counters aimed at them, even if you remove another Goblin from the game in order to play one.
Saying that Food Chain only helps good matchups is probably incorrect, though. If a Food Chain version of the deck has a faster goldfish, that could help out against combo, which does actually exist in some Legacy metagames. :;):
Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1118790961
I have been testing red white vial goblins and what do you guys think of Goblin legionaire.
NOTICE I PUT NO QUESTION MARK AT THE END OF THAT QUESTION! BUTTTTTTTTTTSEX!
I tried it and it seemed like an overcosted Fanatic to me. The other ability is situational and does not answer board sweepers or StP. Nothing too impressive.
Just to adress the specific point; because a good player won't try to use Food Chain to combo off as soon as possible against control. He'll untap again and use it as a mana accelerant that enables the dropping of multiple large threats a turn relatively early on in the game; most control decks will find it hard to counter two Ringleaders in a turn, for instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Obfuscate Freely
Quoted for truth. It is not in and of itself a threat, but it facilitates the ability to play an overwhelming amount of threats in a single turn, allowing the goblins player to overwhelm control's ability to counter its threats through sheer force of numbers. It is a must-counter. The reason it harms your control game is because it will never be castable before turn 3, giving them plenty of time to get mana to counter, can't be "cheated" into play with Lackey or Vial, weakens the effectiveness of your Ringleaders, and replaces actual threats in your decklist. Furthermore, it forces you to run 4 Jeeks, which are high-cost, bad in multiples, and are replacing more efficiently costed threats in the deck. All in all, Food chain buggers your control matchup more than it already is.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin
As for your observation about potential improvement of the combo matchup, it's astute and I'd considered it. However, I did a bit of goldfishing (since that's basically what the combo matchup is anyway) with a build running Food Chain, and the average goldfish over 20 games was nearly identical between the two. Obviously 20 games is hardly enough to make any definitive conclusions, but the lack of impressiveness in the results made me abandon further testing because I'm lazy.
Both builds were goldfishing most often around turns 4-5. The Food Chain build got a few more turn 3 kills than the Vial build, but it also had a higher number of games in the turn 5+ range due to opening draws with multiple Jeeks and/or Food Chains and not enough early threats. It would sometimes sit mostly idle until turn 3, because the only threats in its hand were 3cc or above. That's definitely not the way Goblins wants to be playing. In theory, you could take the FCG route and add in some Tombs and/or ESG's to accellerate it out, but then your destabilizing your manabase, losing even more threats, and screwing up your game even more against control. Early testing seems to indicate that it's not worth it.
To be objective, though, I haven't spent a lot of time optimizing and testing a Food Chain list. It's possible that it could be better in a very combo-heavy, control-light metagame, if such a thing exists.
I might buy that if Food Chain didn't cost 3. By the time your accelerating out double-Ringleader, they can just counter both of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssasin
But if Food Chain really is must-counter, how could it be bad against control? I understand that it messes with Ringleaders, and your manabase, but if it "never resolves" against control, it sounds great. Vial Goblins doesn't actually have any must-counters aside from Ringleaders and early Vials. If you could add another must-counter in Food Chain, while possibly strengthening your game against non-control decks, it should definitely be looked into.
Again, though, as a control player, I would never counter a mana accelerant that costs 2G to play and costs a creature every time it's used.
Edited By Obfuscate Freely on 1118876693